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Trinity River Park

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 05 Apr 2019 10:14

Lol

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 09 Apr 2019 01:01

there are so many plans, can someone post again for clarity..
What is the Balanced Vision?
Why isnt it being followed

Hows this different than the trinity park conservancy?

How does the harold simmons park play into this?

Also what is Re-wilding?
Dallas Observer presents as going back to nature? its already full of nature.
Basically isnt that just leaving it as it is? So there's nothing to build, re wildling just means leave it as it is?

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The_Overdog
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby The_Overdog » 09 Apr 2019 09:08

Also what is Re-wilding?
Dallas Observer presents as going back to nature? its already full of nature.
Basically isnt that just leaving it as it is? So there's nothing to build, re wildling just means leave it as it is?
Top


I believe that the official version of 'rewilding' involves restoring the meander (but still within the levees?), so there is some construction work that has to be done, but then again it's a really long river throughout Dallas County. It can be all the things - a signature park, rewilded, left to nature, in different sections.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 09 Apr 2019 10:46

quixomniac wrote:there are so many plans, can someone post again for clarity..
What is the Balanced Vision?
Why isnt it being followed

Hows this different than the trinity park conservancy?

How does the harold simmons park play into this?

Also what is Re-wilding?
Dallas Observer presents as going back to nature? its already full of nature.
Basically isnt that just leaving it as it is? So there's nothing to build, re wildling just means leave it as it is?

Answers:

1. The Balanced Vision Plan provides the working plan from which anyone working within the floodway must follow. It was blessed by the Corps of Engineers and gives the fundamental framework for any project in the floodway. There is an idea to build a recreation area between the two signature bridges along the Trinity in Dallas. It's not a park. It's a recreation area. Important to never call it a park as it is not one. Nor will it ever be. The language is in the ordinance creating the Local Government Corporation. Not a park. Were it a park a number of state laws and city ordinances would govern it. Not a park.

2. The Trinity Park Conservancy, formerly The Trinity Trust is a privately funded organization seeking to raise funds to build a recreation area in the floodway. Apparently they want to control all of the Trinity River in Dallas or claim credit that they do. Odd approach since they lack the capacity to do that. Whatever. They championed the Calatrava Bridges(but won't pay to fix the design problems) They championed the Standing Wave(but won't pay for the removal of it). They championed the Texas Horse Park(but fell short on raising money to build it and stuck the taxpayers with the bill for construction). They championed the Trinity River Audubon Center(which bleeds money and is not living up to contractual obligations). See a trend? Anyway, after all that past history, they now want to build a big park like area seen in other parts of the country. Oh, they totally pushed for a tollroad along the Trinity.

3. Rewilding has virtually nothing to do with any of that. Led by the folks who defeated the Trinity Tollroad that project would focus on recreation along the Trinity, some concrete trails, mostly dirt paths which would allow people to experience nature. Programming back into the floodplain plants, trees, flowers and wetlands that area allowed in the Balanced Vision Plan. When it floods, awesome. The plants would not have a problem with it. The plants would create a wide variety of habitats that would attract butterflies, birds and small animals. The same wildlife seen in the Great Trinity Forest. Removal of invasive species, some floating trash removal and periodic beneficial mowing regimes would be the only maintenance needed. This has been done with great success all over the world in other urban areas. It's low cost and provides maximum returns in regards to creation of recreation for humans and habitat for wildlife.

Answer your questions sort of? That's a snapshot of what's in play.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 09 Apr 2019 10:51

The_Overdog wrote:
Also what is Re-wilding?
Dallas Observer presents as going back to nature? its already full of nature.
Basically isnt that just leaving it as it is? So there's nothing to build, re wildling just means leave it as it is?
Top


I believe that the official version of 'rewilding' involves restoring the meander (but still within the levees?), so there is some construction work that has to be done, but then again it's a really long river throughout Dallas County. It can be all the things - a signature park, rewilded, left to nature, in different sections.


Restoring the meander is too expensive and full of engineering challenges. Better to work on the ephemeral wetlands off channel that currently exist. Those small ponds are the lifeblood of the Trinity River.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 09 Apr 2019 11:48

quixomniac wrote:How does the harold simmons park play into this?


He's just a dead guy whose family is willing to pay 50M for naming rights for the "park" as some sort of family legacy project.

The would be Park would between the two bridges. But seeing how the Feds said nuh-uh... I'm not even sure his family would be interested in the naming ..

Personally, I'd rather have the "park" named the "Trinity River" ..

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 09 Apr 2019 12:10

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
quixomniac wrote:How does the harold simmons park play into this?


He's just a dead guy whose family is willing to pay 50M for naming rights for the "park" as some sort of family legacy project.

The would be Park would between the two bridges. But seeing how the Feds said nuh-uh... I'm not even sure his family would be interested in the naming ..

Personally, I'd rather have the "park" named the "Trinity River" ..


It's a wonderful thing that his family is doing with their generous gift. Just needs to be done the right way the first time. The Corps of Engineers seem to have expressed a vote of no confidence in the contractors hired to bring the project into reality. That does not bode well!

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muncien
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby muncien » 09 Apr 2019 12:58

So.... We re-wild the entire flood plain. Use the family money to build the much cheaper trails and plants. Expand it all the way up to Inwood and down to the Forrest. Drop all the bells and whistles and call it the "Harrold Simmons Trinity River Recreation Area".

Done. What's next? :D

Also, I'm wondering how many smaller bridges we could get down in the flood plane for the $$ we're about to fork out for the fix to the big bridge... Hmmm
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 09 Apr 2019 13:52

[/quote]
Answer your questions sort of? That's a snapshot of what's in play.[/quote]

Thank you for your reply.
1. It's hard to keep track of all the different websites for the different organizations but this is what i found.
https://trinityrivercorridor.com/about/ ... ision-plan
With this overall picture
https://trinityrivercorridor.com/enviro ... age-05.pdf

From my understanding, its just some realignment of the river, some lakes, some approaches, maybe making it easier to go down the leevees by paths or lowering the levee ramp and that's it.
Anything less than that is unacceptable to me based on the years of expectations and planning.

2. https://trinityparkconservancy.org/the-park/
I would argue they have the Trinity Trust lack of capacity to do anything good or bad, other than raise money and spend money on pretty renderings. The mess of the bridge falls on the city manager office, even thru this circle jerk of blaming between city, architects, engineers. Same for the standing wave. all city manager. And I mean Bridge singular, since the Margaret Hunt Hill is IMO a hit even if it came overbudget, as well as the continental Kirk bridge park.

Although I have family in south dallas, visiting there frequently, the Audobon center and horse park, and even the golf course have NO BUSINESS BEING THERE , it might as well be 2 hours away. I understand that south dallas wants attractions and im sure their politicians lobbied to have them built there, but that's the reason they are failing, no one wants to go down there. If the horse park was closer to downtown, say oak cliff, and you could ride a horse along the levees on some sort of path it would be A HIT. That would be the MOST TEXAS thing to do. The audubon center should have been closer as a gateway to the forest.
The golf course needs nice hotels nearby and other amenties otherwise the clientele has no interest going there.

3. Can anyone find a website for these guys? I understand the attraction of rewilding, but being as cynical as I am with Dallas citizens, they have no interest in nature presented in that manner. Residents of Dallas NEED their instagram posts. This is a city that has been isolated and insulated from nature for years. Restoring the meander in certain sections would be great as that what creates a living river, but doing it for the whole river, I am not sure how financially feasible that is or even how safe it is. The premise of the Trinity river as it is, a straight narrow river is to get water quickly out of the downtown area without letting it accumulate. Would a meander slow water flow or increase it?

I agree with TheOverdog
" It can be all the things - a signature park, rewilded, left to nature, in different sections."

The river is certainly long enough to be multiple things.
1. A reasonable park between the calatrava bridges, simpler than what was presented with decent approaches to shut up the real estate developers stalling any progress on things getting done
It's purpose is to get people to the river and maybe take a chance on nature.
And a body of water, either a widened river channel or lake to stick a canoe in and paddle down river.

2. Some sort of rewilded section that sort of eases people into nature

3. Full access into the forest. hiking paths/trails,

In this manner i think residents will slowly learn to appreciate the nature we are surrounded by.
To get past the initial instagram photo posts and experience it on a daily basis.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 09 Apr 2019 16:59

If we "re-wilded" the area with new plants and then said "done with it," wouldn't the next big flood just wash all the new vegetation away because we've channeled all of the city's drainage into the Trinity and made it a giant, artificial drainage ditch? I just worry that what seems easy really wouldn't be.

I still think we need to make it a lake like Austin did with their river, Lady Bird lake. Repair and strengthen the levees, dam it, and create a flood control release. Create parks and recreation along it, including a beautiful boardwalk that stretches the length of the park, preferably on the west bank so it has views of downtown and the new park along the shores.

Whatever is built there, the fancy park or the "re-wild," is going to be susceptible to the massive flooding that floodplain sees literally every year now. Give us a sensible and beautiful waterfront instead!


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muncien
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby muncien » 10 Apr 2019 09:25

Quite possibly the most beautiful section of the Trinity River channel is up along the Elm Fork where Spur 482 crosses. You get a great view of it while on the Orange line which crosses here as well. It is as 'wild' as can be. It floods ALL THE TIME. The vegetation is lush and helps filter the trash/debris from the river. There are some primitive service roads in various places through here. I once did a trash clean up with my company down there and it is absolutely beautiful. Now, it would take quite some time to get the mowed/sterile sections of the river to look anything like this, but IMO, this is what we should be striving for. All that is missing from this particular section is some better maintained pathways.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 10 Apr 2019 17:21

muncien wrote:Quite possibly the most beautiful section of the Trinity River channel is up along the Elm Fork where Spur 482 crosses. You get a great view of it while on the Orange line which crosses here as well. It is as 'wild' as can be. It floods ALL THE TIME. The vegetation is lush and helps filter the trash/debris from the river. There are some primitive service roads in various places through here. I once did a trash clean up with my company down there and it is absolutely beautiful. Now, it would take quite some time to get the mowed/sterile sections of the river to look anything like this, but IMO, this is what we should be striving for. All that is missing from this particular section is some better maintained pathways.


Is that near Bachman Lake?
That's great I will take a ride someday.

To counter the earlier Dallas Observer post from the always affable Jim Schutze,
I post this from this ex-Dallas Observer counterpart Robert Wilonsky

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... onsky-week

It's too early to say the plan is dead. Doesnt seem like its the final say on the matter either
It looks like it will be another political tug of war

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 11 Apr 2019 17:05

Texas Horse Park operator is trespassing says the City of Dallas. No more Horse Park, at least the public component. I guess Equest will stay there but River Ranch is basically told to vacate the premises.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... respassing

Sorta big news in the whole scheme of things regarding the Trinity River Project and it's failure on delivering big issues.

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Sburres
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Sburres » 18 Apr 2019 09:27

This is sad but not surprising.

I agree with what Phillip Kingston said. There is such a thing as dreaming too big. We keep wasting money when we could simply make this a great park. If we even paved the length of the trail, planted trees, and added parking it would improve it tremendously.

Half of the presentation was they want people to get excited and to see the flooding? No! We want the river to prevent flooding and trails alongside. No one wants to go to a park that is flooded.

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 18 Apr 2019 09:42

Sburres wrote:I agree with what Phillip Kingston said. There is such a thing as dreaming too big. We keep wasting money when we could simply make this a great park. If we even paved the length of the trail, planted trees, and added parking it would improve it tremendously.


This is how I feel too. We've spent all this time being overly ambitious and we are still left with nothing. I'd rather just see the trails on top of the levees paved, with a loop created from the pedestrian bridge (either to the Slyvan Ave bridge or the McDermott bridge). A nice trail loop like that with those amazing views will get people walking/running/biking in the area. As it becomes more popular, then we start adding more and more to the trails little by little.

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tamtagon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 18 Apr 2019 09:49

The various Billionaires Philanthropic Clubs need to accept Reverchon and Fair Park as the locations of infrastructure improvement initiatives; the real estate between the Trinity River levees is not for the built world; adding a 'shelf' to the flood control zone is an excellent idea and the extent to which engineering should be applied. Rebuilding the Tollway to restore and expand Reverchon Park AND restore Turtle Creek will deliver much better interchanges and traffic flow with I-35, McKinnon and Harry Hines. A carnival entertainment district based on tourism associated TOD at the MLK Station would set in motion the evolution of a destination that impacts the entire metropolitan area. anyway....

A deeper and wider river channel that feeds wetland cells throughout the flood zone will become the benchmark managed wilderness recreation for the South Central US. Removal of the flora choke point near the forest will mitigate the seasonal flash floods.

The ignorance and stupidity driving the attempts to create any sort of amusement park is so self-destructive it can hardly be believed. The sweet pleasure found in the riparian environment should be pervasive to a Texan childhood, and in the big city that needs to mean a big riparian landscape that can accommodate millions of residents.

itsjrd1964
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby itsjrd1964 » 27 Apr 2019 08:12

New models of Dallas' Trinity Park show a sinuous landscape, rebut critics

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/archite ... ut-critics

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 29 Apr 2019 14:56

itsjrd1964 wrote:New models of Dallas' Trinity Park show a sinuous landscape, rebut critics

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/archite ... ut-critics


Looks pretty good to me...
I see small depressions but no lakes? or are those puddles...

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Apr 2019 19:56

Looks like more empty promises to me.

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 01 May 2019 11:54

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Looks like more empty promises to me.


This +1000. Anytime I see the phrases "lots of work to go" or "preliminary" or "Trinity River", I take everything with a grain of salt.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 02 May 2019 10:29

Hard to tell from the photos if the plan has been scaled back dramatically?

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 02 May 2019 11:08

casperitl wrote:Hard to tell from the photos if the plan has been scaled back dramatically?


It certainly does to me...a step in the right direction

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tamtagon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 02 May 2019 11:29

I like the shelf and I like an active recreation park overlook for the Reunion Boulevard terminus. The entirely of the flood plain cannot be any more than a managed wilderness.

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 02 May 2019 22:33

If they keep scaling it back they may actually settle on something they can afford.

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby lakewoodhobo » 10 May 2019 15:54

According to the park conservancy, their goal is to start construction of Harold Simmons Park in December 2020 and open in May of 2022.

Screen Shot 2019-05-10 at 3.53.22 PM.jpg
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 10 May 2019 16:04

lakewoodhobo wrote:According to the park conservancy, their goal is to start construction of Harold Simmons Park in December 2020 and open in May of 2022.

Screen Shot 2019-05-10 at 3.53.22 PM.jpg


I wouldn't put any faith in this. They had to receive millions in philanthropic donations to get it done. 250M if I recall correctly. The original donation was for 50M I believe.

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 30 May 2019 02:29

Looks like they have enough money to buy a jail. in addition 12m in trust funds.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtow ... ail-nearby
What will become of the building on West Commerce Street remained unclear after the sale. Brent Brown, the conservancy's CEO and president, said Wednesday evening that many options are on the table, including mixed-income housing and office space.

But for now, Brown said the conservancy would likely move its offices into the former jail. And in the future, he imagines ground-floor amenities for park and trail users ranging from a bike-repair shop to a cafe or refreshment stand.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 30 May 2019 09:55

Interesting move away from construction of a park and into acquiring real estate. Makes some wonder what the real goal is here. Almost sounds like the park is just a vehicle for development by Park Cities residents.

This should serve as a wakeup call to those misguided folks who thought the whole idea was a nature based park. It's not. It's a real estate and development project.

Also, wonder why this was not vetted first through open public meetings with the Local Government Corporation that has control of this area.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 May 2019 12:03

Yeah, this announcement feels dirty but that's because the whole Trinity Park is a dirty job constantly screwing over Dallas residents.

So we have one government body who gave the Conservancy a deal on a valuable piece of Real Estate that makes it easier for the private developer looking to redevelop the surrounding parking lot. I wouldn't put it past them to flip the property to a developer in exchange for some basic amenity for the Park like a sponsored overlook etc.

At&t sponsored a trail to help ensure the Trinity Forest Gold Park got built.

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 30 May 2019 14:34

Which of these happens first:
- Complete tear-down and redevelopment of the former jail site into a mid-to-high rise mixed use building
- A single shovel of dirt being moved on the park itself

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby art_suckz » 30 May 2019 15:41

Elon Musk will be dying on Mars first.
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 30 May 2019 18:31

art_suckz wrote:Elon Musk will be dying on Mars first.

haha any of elon musk's outlandish timeline claims pale in comparison to anything Trinity Park.
Elon musk said 2024 for Mars, and i think that is more realistic than anything with this park.

Without a doubt most civic projects in Dallas are all about real estate grabs.
But when they are done well (Klyde Warren Park), both sides benefit.

I think the jail was always going to be sold to some developer. There's tons of renderings showing how riverfront boulevard would look like without the jail. But selling the jail is one thing, moving the other jail buildings requires political muscle that is completely unrealistic in my opinion.

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby itsjrd1964 » 31 May 2019 03:17

quixomniac wrote:There's tons of renderings showing how riverfront boulevard would look like without the jail. But selling the jail is one thing, moving the other jail buildings requires political muscle that is completely unrealistic in my opinion.


Not only moving them, but *where* would they move them? No other part of town would want them. It's like the homeless dilemma these days. Solve it, but NIMBY.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 31 May 2019 09:21

itsjrd1964 wrote:
quixomniac wrote:There's tons of renderings showing how riverfront boulevard would look like without the jail. But selling the jail is one thing, moving the other jail buildings requires political muscle that is completely unrealistic in my opinion.


Not only moving them, but *where* would they move them? No other part of town would want them. It's like the homeless dilemma these days. Solve it, but NIMBY.


The perfect location would be near Luna Rd and 635; across 35.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 31 May 2019 10:16

Some of the Park Cities folk want the courthouse complex and jail moved out to Wilmer, Hutchins or Lancaster. Tarrant County moved their jail out to Mansfield some years ago requiring inmate transfers between the downtown county courthouse in Fort Worth and distant Mansfield. In Dallas, some want all of the court complex and jails gone for good.

Once the mask comes off that this push is all about enriching a select few real estate developers it will be too late to stop it. It's a money play and greed driven. All the talk about inclusive involvement of marginalized residents, communing with nature(whatever that is) and the like is all a thin veneer of bull poop. With $500 million of public money flushed down the drain by the same people why would anyone trust them going forward?

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Jun 2019 13:25

You make it sound like some undercover conspiracy.

Every one knows every city parks are a real estate deal meant to increase land values and that is the main driver pushing more park development in the last few decades from City Hall's perspective and I don't think it's wrong to see it that way. Sure do Trinity Park supporters use flowery language and mystical wording to spin park development towards a morality spiritual conversation but I think every rational person who has ever looked at the decades of Trinity Park renderings knows it's about driving new development along the levees. I think the only real smoke screen is most people don't know who are the actual landowners and why the city can't seem to manage the project effectively.

Also, the smoke screen behind the Tollway is a whole other topic where one group claims it was needed and required to keep traffic moving smoothly while others are confused why you would put a highway in a flood-prone area.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 03 Jun 2019 10:50

Many residents think that a recreational area between the levees will be a zen yoga mecca area for forest bathing and mastery of healing type nonsense. So few are enlightened to see that it has always been about real estate and making a hand picked few their next fortune.

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anon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby anon » 03 Jun 2019 20:13

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
itsjrd1964 wrote:
quixomniac wrote:There's tons of renderings showing how riverfront boulevard would look like without the jail. But selling the jail is one thing, moving the other jail buildings requires political muscle that is completely unrealistic in my opinion.


Not only moving them, but *where* would they move them? No other part of town would want them. It's like the homeless dilemma these days. Solve it, but NIMBY.


The perfect location would be near Luna Rd and 635; across 35.


There's no space empty space in that.

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 11 Jun 2019 16:14

Not sure if this is the proper thread, but it relates to the area. Does anyone know if there's the possibility that the Trinity Toll Road could re-appear on the radar? With Scott Griggs and Philip Kingston, two of its more vocal opponents, gone, my gut tells me it is only a matter of time before NTTA busts out the shovels.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 11 Jun 2019 18:33

^ NTTA made in very clear they have no interest in the project unless the city forks over $1B+ up front.

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 12 Jun 2019 11:31

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ NTTA made in very clear they have no interest in the project unless the city forks over $1B+ up front.


I feel like that will be much easier with fewer dissenting voices in the room. I'm curious more to the legal/political aspects of whether or not the toll road is "dead".

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 14 Jun 2019 12:35

You mean the "meandering park access road" could truly be a zombie and come back, I sure as hell hope not. A lot of things would have to be regeared to get it out of mothballs. If it did come back it will be presented differently I am sure to try to bury the significance of it returning. I imagine it would be pushed by the new Trinity Conservancy group as a means to get park funding...you give us a couple 100 million and we will bless the park road idea...


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