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Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

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dallaz
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Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby dallaz » 04 Sep 2018 11:01

Cityplace high-rise on the drawing board for original skyscraper site


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... raper-site

One of the last development sites in Dallas' decades old Cityplace project is being planned for construction.

The more than 2.5 acre site at Cityplace Boulevard and Howell Street in the 1980s was earmarked for a 42-story office skyscraper - a twin of the building across North Central Expressway.

But the tower was never built, and most recently the block has been used for a restaurant and dog park.

Owner Cityplace Co. is eyeing a high-rise development for the property, which is next door to the new Hilton Canopy Hotel and the Richards Group office tower.

Cityplace is asking the city for approval to build a project that is larger than the current zoning allows.

"It's one of the last two sites we have left," said Cityplace president Neal Sleeper. "We are trying to pump up the density a little bit.

"We've got all the height we need."

Sleeper said the planned high-rise for the site would mostly be office space.

"We are hoping to do a significant office building and a hotel," he said. "That's where the second tower was originally going to be, so we want to have something of prominence."

Started in the mid 1980s as one of the largest urban renewal projects in the country, the 140-acre Cityplace property was originally planned for more than 60 office towers, residential high-rises, hotels and retail space in the area between Haskell and Lemmon avenues.

Two 42-story skyscrapers on either side of North Central Expressway were planned as the centerpiece of the ambitious development.

But only one of the huge towers was built, and a real estate crash slowed development of Cityplace.

Sleeper's Cityplace Co. bought 130 acres of the development in 1990 and has been slowly developing the project with new apartments, retail, hotel and office space.

The almost 1.4 million square-foot Cityplace Tower just sold to Dallas' Highland Capital Management.

And developer by Forest City Realty Trust and Cityplace Co. just opened the 23-story Ardan apartment tower on Blackburn Street near North Central.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 04 Sep 2018 11:24

I hope it's 40 stories. Would be nice to have some prominent structure near West village.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Sep 2018 11:25

Well, maybe they aren't done for this development cycle. So it would be a tall signature tower of office space and another hotel. Its funny CityPlace Co can develop this side without any trouble but still, development hasn't truly hopped the freeway.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Sep 2018 11:26

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:I hope it's 40 stories. Would be nice to have some prominent structure near West village.


Awe, a baby brother for CityPlace Tower so it's less lonely in the skyline.

DPatel304
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby DPatel304 » 04 Sep 2018 11:32

This would be awesome if it did happen. I know this was the plan all along for this site, but I figured it would be a while before anything happened.

I won't hold my breath for anything just yet, but eager to hear more.

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dallaz
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby dallaz » 04 Sep 2018 11:33

A height comparable to Cityplace Tower would be nice. Just imagine that and the Cityplace east development. It could create a good cluster of buildings in the area.

Hopefully, it all comes into fruition.

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Kelley USA
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Kelley USA » 04 Sep 2018 11:45

If this does get off the ground, and if Cityplace East has any legs this would be a prime location for another deck park. It would really help connect the East and West!

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Sep 2018 12:00

A deck park here would def get used by the residents and Uptown crowd. There is still the problem that even with Klyde Warren success its still not a great money maker and we can not afford to keep throwing up these sensational pricey parks over freeways without some financial future for them. If the property owners want to chip in some maintenance funds sure I am all for it. You could even put the Rustic as part of the park's design since they would have to move anyway for the before mentioned tower.

Tnexster
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Tnexster » 04 Sep 2018 12:15

They say larger than current zoning allows....what exactly is the cap on that now?

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby lakewoodhobo » 04 Sep 2018 13:14

Tnexster wrote:They say larger than current zoning allows....what exactly is the cap on that now?


From the City Plan Commission agenda item:

The primary purpose of the request is to increase the floor area ratio (FAR) of the site from 5.0:1 to 8.0:1. The applicant proposes to provide additional urban design standards, which include a blank wall maximum that is consistent with the General Commercial and Apartment development types of Form Districts, requirements that ground story street-facing dwelling units have direct connections to the sidewalk, requirements to prohibit off-street loading facilities between a building facade and the street, a requirement that off-street parking structures be consistent with parking structure facade requirements of PDD No. 193, and a requirement that a minimum of
10 percent of the site as open-space, which is consistent with Form Districts open space requirements.

However, since these additional urban design standards do not exceed typical urban design standards of other districts, staff requested the applicant propose an additional public benefit to substantiate the request to increase FAR. Since residential uses are currently allowed and are proposed to continue to be allowed with the request with an increase in FAR, staff encouraged the applicant to consider offering a minimum amount of mixed-income housing. The applicant proposes to provide affordable housing for two percent of the units when the individual FAR of residential uses does not exceed 2:1 FAR and 10 percent of the units for the portion of the residential use that exceeds 2:1 FAR.

The applicant proposes to provide the affordable housing units to voucher holders and households earning 80 percent or less of the median family income for the Dallas area. Staff coordinated with the Department of Housing and Neighborhood Revitalization who provided the following recommendation regarding the number of affordable units and the eligible households.

The applicant also requests that affordable housing be only applicable to rented units and not units that are sold. Staff and the Department of Housing and Neighborhood Revitalization does not support the distinction between rented and sold and therefore recommends that affordable housing requirements apply to both types of occupants.


https://dallascityhall.com/government/m ... Docket.pdf

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eburress
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby eburress » 04 Sep 2018 13:21

"We are trying to pump up the density a little bit."

Love to hear that! :)

Tnexster
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Tnexster » 04 Sep 2018 14:02

This has potential, hope it's a good one. Would be nice to have an explanation point in the form of a signature tower in WV.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Sep 2018 14:10

Lord knows I would like something better to look at than the Borg cube known as the Richards Group.

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muncien
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby muncien » 04 Sep 2018 14:36

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Lord knows I would like something better to look at than the Borg cube known as the Richards Group.


Not sure the Borg will take too kindly to such a comment. #borgstrong #borgtoo
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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itsjrd1964
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby itsjrd1964 » 04 Sep 2018 14:38

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Lord knows I would like something better to look at than the Borg cube known as the Richards Group.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :!: :!:
I was telling a friend about this the other day and said something about 'the Borg has landed' or some such... he cracked up!

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Mr. Amsterdam
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Mr. Amsterdam » 04 Sep 2018 15:09

I want it to be a decent-sized high rise, but my gut is saying that it'll probably be another one of those bland 20-22 stories, with half of it as a parking garage.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 04 Sep 2018 15:31

Mr. Amsterdam wrote:I want it to be a decent-sized high rise, but my gut is saying that it'll probably be another one of those bland 20-22 stories, with half of it as a parking garage.


Prolly.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 04 Sep 2018 16:00

"...staff encouraged the applicant to consider offering a minimum amount of mixed-income housing."

In other words, blackmail.

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Dallas12
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Dallas12 » 04 Sep 2018 16:24

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Mr. Amsterdam wrote:I want it to be a decent-sized high rise, but my gut is saying that it'll probably be another one of those bland 20-22 stories, with half of it as a parking garage.


Prolly.

It seems like they want to put in a signature mixed-use development here based on this quote, "We are hoping to do a significant office building and a hotel," he said. "That's where the second tower was originally going to be, so we want to have something of prominence." But to get the additional density, ie. hotel, he mentioned, they probably have to give a little to get a little from the City. I could see a scenario where the max SF of the office tower is downsized to make way for the hotel he mentioned. Maybe it’s still a 42 story tower but a smaller floor plate/footprint.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby joshua.dodd » 05 Sep 2018 07:27

I hope they design the tower to compliment Cityplace Tower's architecture. No stucco. And not too much glass. Something classy and southwestern, with a throwback to art deco, like Cityplace Tower.

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ContriveDallasite
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby ContriveDallasite » 05 Sep 2018 07:32

Why not just complete the vision and build the twin? Aren't half of the materials out in a field already?

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eburress
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby eburress » 05 Sep 2018 08:49

ContriveDallasite wrote:Why not just complete the vision and build the twin? Aren't half of the materials out in a field already?


I would be a big supporter of this direction, or at least a newly-designed tower in a style consistent with the development's original vision, using those saved materials.

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muncien
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby muncien » 05 Sep 2018 08:49

Hannibal Lecter wrote:"...staff encouraged the applicant to consider offering a minimum amount of mixed-income housing."

In other words, blackmail.


That's not 'blackmail', that's negotiation. The developer is asking for a variance to what is currently allowed on the site, and the city is asking for something in return. What the city asks for in return is their own prerogative. These types of trade offs happen every week in these meetings.

Personally, I don't believe in 'affordable housing' mandates. I don't think they are effective, and I think they are ripe with fraud. But the city thinks differently... Plus, they are under a microscope from the feds for previous handling of 'affordable housing' initiatives and are probably trying to correct for those.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Cbdallas
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Cbdallas » 05 Sep 2018 11:59

This would be a great spot to put condos for sale on top of that mixed use tower as there is not any high rise condos for sale in the West Village area just rentals.

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Matt777
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2018 12:53

Cbdallas wrote:This would be a great spot to put condos for sale on top of that mixed use tower as there is not any high rise condos for sale in the West Village area just rentals.


Right? For some reason, highrise condo developments have avoided the areas people most want to live in and would shell out they money for. We have really only seen them in the NE quadrant of Downtown and Harwood.... not areas that are highly sought after for residential. Highrise condos in Uptown, West Village, Knox Henderson, Deep Ellum, and maybe even Oak Lawn would sell much faster. But they just aren't being built at all. Strange.

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exelone31
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby exelone31 » 05 Sep 2018 14:52

I've always wanted to grab a piece of the unused marble. I tried reaching out to them a couple weeks ago, but never heard back. May try again. It'd be cool to have it alongside a rendering of the twin towers concept.

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Dragon_Lady
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby Dragon_Lady » 05 Sep 2018 22:30

I agree with the comments posted about either build the twin as originally conceived (my preference) or incorporate the Brazilian granite (or marble) that's in a field in southeast Dallas to compliment the existing tower; similar to AMLI and Fountain Place. However, it would be neat to see a skinnier version, albeit taller, and have the original concept of the glass barrel vaulted roof bisecting the middle while retaining post-Modernist interpretations of Art Deco. If skinnier, I'm not sure it could structurally be two separate towers joined every five floors showcasing a wide center glass wall like City Place east. However, having similar vertical lighting would bring the two together at night. This and the proposed high-rise(s) (hopefully 450' plus) development north of City Place will really extend the downtown area if actualized.

The monstrosity known as Richard's Borg tower wouldn't be an eye sore to my eyes if was twice as tall; at least then it would play up as a gigantic monolith thingy.

I read somewhere long ago that area's maximum FAA height is 650' or 750' but do not recall. Any info on that is appreciated.

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ContriveDallasite
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby ContriveDallasite » 06 Sep 2018 01:47

Does anyone know if an over 75 Skybridge is even feasible? Are there any other examples of pedestrian skybridges crossing over expressways in the US?

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 06 Sep 2018 08:40

Fantasies. The developers of the West Village have no intention of tying their success to an abandoned project across the freeway. CityPlace Tower has had its own issues staying leased. West Village developers are noting going to want to design their project to mimic the past let alone build a sky bridge to a separately owned tower with their own plans to try to get a lease up. This project will be designed without too much influence from the past and I doubt they would even consider using the old stone since its far outdated in today's architecture. Maybe use the old stone for some flower bed edging or a sculpture in the lobby.

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dallaz
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby dallaz » 06 Sep 2018 12:41

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Fantasies. The developers of the West Village have no intention of tying their success to an abandoned project across the freeway. CityPlace Tower has had its own issues staying leased. West Village developers are noting going to want to design their project to mimic the past let alone build a sky bridge to a separately owned tower with their own plans to try to get a lease up. This project will be designed without too much influence from the past and I doubt they would even consider using the old stone since its far outdated in today's architecture. Maybe use the old stone for some flower bed edging or a sculpture in the lobby.
That sounds about right.

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itsjrd1964
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby itsjrd1964 » 06 Sep 2018 14:08

I wouldn't mind at all seeing a skybridge, if the buildings were both accessible/inviting/similar. But the way that the current east tower has been managed and run, it's basically you-better-work-here-or-else. Very off-putting for those of us who don't necessarily have a reason to be there but with the current regime, I don't know how you'd get to an upper-floor-oriented skybridge as long as it's built where you can only be a tenant/tenant's employee to access it.

Are there any other examples of pedestrian skybridges crossing over expressways in the US?


Other than the kind that are built by the highway department (like the one on I-635 between Marsh and Webb Chapel), I've not seen any.

LongonBigD
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby LongonBigD » 06 Sep 2018 15:35

Except for the view of downtown, what is the benefit of a sky bridge? If you really need to get across 75 without the elements, use the DART tunnel. In the very far future when lots north and south of Haskell are much more dense....,perhaps. Although atvthat time a deck park should be considered.

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itsjrd1964
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby itsjrd1964 » 06 Sep 2018 16:12

LongonBigD wrote:Except for the view of downtown, what is the benefit of a sky bridge? If you really need to get across 75 without the elements, use the DART tunnel. In the very far future when lots north and south of Haskell are much more dense....,perhaps. Although atvthat time a deck park should be considered.


I like the idea of a deck park, but I'm not sure how it would mix with the way the traffic is on the north/south service roads in that area. People trying to access a deck park there would either have to play 'frogger' around backed-up traffic, or hope they don't get run over by the cars that aren't backed-up.

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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Sep 2018 09:02

Which is not a bad thing^. Lord knows I wish crosswalks in other neighborhoods had as much success getting people not to speed over human beings as much as those around Klyde Warren. Service roads have to coexist within the main street grid and are set at much slower speeds than the freeway forcing them to actually have that slower function is not a bad thing in the city. Helps reduce the whole Berlin Wall quality or moat they create for people to move across them.

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muncien
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby muncien » 07 Sep 2018 10:41

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Which is not a bad thing^. Lord knows I wish crosswalks in other neighborhoods had as much success getting people not to speed over human beings as much as those around Klyde Warren. Service roads have to coexist within the main street grid and are set at much slower speeds than the freeway forcing them to actually have that slower function is not a bad thing in the city. Helps reduce the whole Berlin Wall quality or moat they create for people to move across them.


Exactly, right... TxDOT seems to be building most new frontage roads as extensions of the freeway itself, and not as part of the street grid. Luckily, this section has not fully gone that route and can be salvaged to be more in line with what is adjacent to KWP. Do that, and a deck park here will be a HUGE win and nobody would ever miss a skybridge.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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tamtagon
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Re: Old Cityplace Twin Tower site

Postby tamtagon » 07 Sep 2018 11:17

^beginning at CityPlace, I would like to see TxDOT handle the future of I-345 as a super access road, designed to enhance and favor the downtown area street grids.


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