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Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

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maconahey
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Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby maconahey » 03 Jul 2017 12:34

Found this article from 2014

David, who runs development and construction management for Granite, says Granite leadership is in the midst of creating a development plan for Cedar Maple, a three-building complex across from the Crescent in Uptown. The smaller '80s-era project could see the addition of a nine-story 150k SF building or the firm may wait a few more years to re-examine the market.


https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/ ... line-40641

Looks like they re-examined and want to go big in a few more years. There are three proposed heights recently submitted to the FAA at 425', 427', and 430'. I guess they are putting feelers out there to see how high they can go in that spot.


Work Schedule: 04/01/2021 to 04/01/2023

Structure Type: Building
Structure Name: Cedar Maple Office building

Site Elevation: 480
Structure Height: 425
Total Height (AMSL): 905


https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 96&row=268

427': https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 94&row=264

430': https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 95&row=266

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby CTroyMathis » 12 Nov 2017 11:31


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R1070
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby R1070 » 12 Nov 2017 12:14

I like they they want to incorporate the building next door that currently has Coal Vines, etc. That could be a prominent corner development.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby Matt777 » 12 Nov 2017 12:58

R1070 wrote:I like they they want to incorporate the building next door that currently has Coal Vines, etc. That could be a prominent corner development.


Where was this mentioned?

The tower looks really good. I hope that the ground level is engaging enough to prevent that green area from becoming a dead zone like some of the 80's office buildings. The buildings that are there now are pleasant but could be vastly improved by just opening up the first floor completely and making it covered in glass, with retail and dining, and then adding a garage and tower in the surface parking lot behind it. The area with the bushes could be combined with the existing sidewalks to make a nice area for patios and a wider pedestrian thoroughfare. This plan obliterates everything on the lot now and starts over.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby hjkll » 12 Nov 2017 13:58

Matt777 wrote:
R1070 wrote:I like they they want to incorporate the building next door that currently has Coal Vines, etc. That could be a prominent corner development.


Where was this mentioned?

The tower looks really good. I hope that the ground level is engaging enough to prevent that green area from becoming a dead zone like some of the 80's office buildings. The buildings that are there now are pleasant but could be vastly improved by just opening up the first floor completely and making it covered in glass, with retail and dining, and then adding a garage and tower in the surface parking lot behind it. The area with the bushes could be combined with the existing sidewalks to make a nice area for patios and a wider pedestrian thoroughfare. This plan obliterates everything on the lot now and starts over.


I totally agree. I like this building but it needs more street interaction. I wish there were more stringent rules on eliminating idiotic future "plazas." They also show architectural renderings full of people in them, yet literally no one stays in them because they are so depressing. They also need to chill on the green space around the building, we don't want a city of isolated towers

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby citygeek » 12 Nov 2017 15:05

R1070.....This is across from the Crescent on Cedar Springs, not on Maple Avenue at the site of the original Old Warsaw next to the current Coal Vines location.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby joshua.dodd » 12 Nov 2017 16:04

Image

Image

Image

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R1070
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby R1070 » 12 Nov 2017 16:25

oh, they'd tear down that older looking office complex! gotcha

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby eburress » 12 Nov 2017 18:15

I love that tower but I'd be sad to see those French-styled office buildings go away.

Edit - They also need to fill the lot better than this, building out to the sidewalks. What's there is a decently urban looking development now (at least from Cedar Springs), but what they're proposing seems arranged like something from the 80s (a tower in the middle of a bunch of parking lots). There's more height with this but less density.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby joshua.dodd » 12 Nov 2017 18:18

I like the tower, but the street interaction is just god awful.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby R1070 » 12 Nov 2017 19:04

I will miss the French style office buildings right there. They blend in with the neighborhood so well. This building needs to be more street friendly.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby eburress » 13 Nov 2017 09:50

R1070 wrote:I will miss the French style office buildings right there. They blend in with the neighborhood so well. This building needs to be more street friendly.


Yeah, maybe this is intended to be more conceptual. Rotating the building to be positioned along Cedar Springs would be a good start, but I still hate to lose the French buildings.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby tanzoak » 13 Nov 2017 10:01

eburress wrote: There's more height with this but less density.


How do you figure? It's about 5x as dense (120k sf vs 600k sf). Agree that the street level interaction is much much worse, though. That needs to be reconceptualized.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby muncien » 13 Nov 2017 10:09

They're actually building out the entire lot footprint for the garage below... All they need to do is extend that upwards a couple levels with resturant/lobby/retail/meeting areas, etc... and and let it serve as the podium for the full structure. The plaza is nonsense... They could have an outdoor space on top of the theorized podium for outside space for their tenants if they wanted.
The building itself is a solid design, but they've totally missed at ground level. Some minor changes could make it a winner though.
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Nov 2017 11:38

I think this version of a project isn't moving forward anyway. Most of the time when the first renderings of a project are posted on the Architecture firms website that means they weren't chosen for the final design or the project folded. Firms like to use designs that were never built to at least show they can design that kind of work if the project never moves forward past renderings.

Renderings like these go on the firm's website for two reasons one after the project is completed or most of the way completed. Two after the developer cancels work on the project and the firm at least wants something to show for it on their website portfolio.

I doubt this is moving forward. The last word we heard about movement on this site talked about keeping the current buildings with a tower on the rear of the property if the market would even be interested. When it comes to office space in Uptown it leases well but banks still aren't writing checks without a major tenant signed to move in day one when the building opens.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby eburress » 13 Nov 2017 11:54

tanzoak wrote:
eburress wrote: There's more height with this but less density.


How do you figure? It's about 5x as dense (120k sf vs 600k sf). Agree that the street level interaction is much much worse, though. That needs to be reconceptualized.


I probably don't have the vocabulary to adequately say what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's more about the massing, arrangement, and/or utilization of lot. Currently the buildings are positioned towards the sidewalk which from Cedar Springs, makes the property feel more "filled." This new building is taller, obviously, but the lot seems less full...and that's the decreased density I was [trying to] speaking of.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby tanzoak » 13 Nov 2017 12:47

eburress wrote:
tanzoak wrote:
eburress wrote: There's more height with this but less density.


How do you figure? It's about 5x as dense (120k sf vs 600k sf). Agree that the street level interaction is much much worse, though. That needs to be reconceptualized.


I probably don't have the vocabulary to adequately say what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's more about the massing, arrangement, and/or utilization of lot. Currently the buildings are positioned towards the sidewalk which from Cedar Springs, makes the property feel more "filled." This new building is taller, obviously, but the lot seems less full...and that's the decreased density I was [trying to] speaking of.


Ah, gotcha. Yeah, agree with that.

Btw, the terms you're thinking of are lot coverage (percent of parcel covered by a building or garage) and setbacks (how far from the street or the sides of the parcel the building is). Typically "density" is either in terms of dwelling units per acre (for residential) or floor area ratio (total non-garage building square footage:parcel square footage, for residential or commercial).

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby dfwcre8tive » 13 Nov 2017 16:32

Well, the parking lot behind the existing low-rise buildings was originally intended to house a highrise tower in the 1980s (only the smaller buildings were finished). Maybe they should go back to that plan.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 17 Nov 2017 10:16

I renamed this thread for clarity so that if someone else finds these renderings or further news about this property that they may find this thread already in use.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple

Postby eburress » 17 Nov 2017 11:31

dfwcre8tive wrote:Well, the parking lot behind the existing low-rise buildings was originally intended to house a highrise tower in the 1980s (only the smaller buildings were finished). Maybe they should go back to that plan.


That's absolutely what they should do. It would be a ridiculous decision to knock down those existing buildings, especially when there's already room available to accommodate a tower like this.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby tamtagon » 17 Nov 2017 12:04

I like the way the existing buildings look, and would prefer the iconic, signature, landmark highrise to take the parking lot in the back.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 17 Nov 2017 14:21

Would the parking garage be the setback for that option? The new tower shows a garage that consumes the entire site, does the current underground garage already do that?

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby tamtagon » 20 Jun 2018 08:16

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... -buildings

Uptown Dallas office high-rise project will include park and retail buildings

Steve Brown, Real Estate Editor

A new development in the planning stages for Dallas' booming Uptown district would bring the biggest office tower to the neighborhood in decades ... But the standout for the Maple Avenue project are plans for an acre park and open space at one of Uptown's busiest intersections.

...The 26-story, 660,000-square-foot office tower would replace three small office buildings on the property built in 1985.

... Granite Properties will seek zoning changes to allow it to construct a taller building. In return, it will provide the park and open space and move its high-rise away from a next-door residential tower ... all of the parking for Granite's building will be underground.

... Current leases at Cedar Maple Plaza run through 2020, so any new construction is still a ways off.


cedmap-graniteplan.jpg
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 20 Jun 2018 08:20

Steven Brown finally caught up with us then...

Still not a fan of this project but it may never happen unless they sign a lead tenant.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby ContriveDallasite » 20 Jun 2018 08:56

Image

I would be really a little sad to the smaller buildings go. They might not be able to place a 26 story building in the middle, but it seems like the parking lots and empty lot next door would allow for both. Just seems like this tower would add height but remove the street presence. One step forward and another step back.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby DallasMan » 20 Jun 2018 09:19

Yeah, nope. Do not like this project. It places a car drive, pull-in and valet area right on the corner of Cedar Springs and Maple. This is essentially a high-dollar high-rise with a bunch of open space around it and 2 pad site restaurants. Hello suburbs.

Thanks for burying all the parking, but I'd prefer they go back to the drawing board. This is the heart of Uptown - they can and should do better.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby tamtagon » 20 Jun 2018 09:57

I'm tempted to say "because it looks good on an aerial photo mock-up," but I'm not too sure why an open lawn would be desirable for a development like this. Well, an open lawn is great for special events and tents so there's that, but instead of a park & open space with a couple stand-alone restaurants, how about a maze of garden corridors, terraces, patios open air nooks and alcoves hosting seating for another Food Hall variant. Keep the open space, ummm, contained and framed by a band-shell extension of the office tower for the special events and from which all the garden corridors terraces patios nooks and alcoves radiate. Whatever.

The presumed glass tower proposed earlier only looks slightly different than a thousand others and so far does not indicate the slight differences are subtle yet significant like that angular beauty on the other side of the Ritz.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 20 Jun 2018 10:35

Plus they keep calling that private lawn a park... Donate it to the city and maybe we can call it a park but this is no different than any other 1980's office project where they built a garden between the street and the valet stand. It's a PR campaign to whitewash the reality and honestly will probably sail through the council without much challenge.

I dare any of you to try to picnic or throw a football with your kid on that micro lawn and security will run you off.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby dfwcre8tive » 20 Jun 2018 12:00

The current buildings were designed to blend into the neighborhood. Seems that it would be easier to follow the original plan and add two 18-story buildings behind the current buildings (and these could be contemporary design).

pl_006202018_1256_21202_160_Page_1.jpg

pl_006202018_1256_21202_160_Page_2.jpg

Image
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby utgf » 20 Jun 2018 15:07

Only in Dallas could a building built in 1980's be a better urban design than one to be built in 2020's to replace it. When they talk about open space, did not realize they meant open space for cars.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby PonyUp13 » 20 Jun 2018 23:22

Saying half is open space seems pretty misleading to me. While they’re not literally building on half much of that is garage exit, garage entrance, parking lot, and valet stand. This thing is almost as bad as Trulucks!

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby DPatel304 » 21 Jun 2018 02:37

The original plan from the 1980s looks incredible! I wish they could just stick to that original plan.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby Tnexster » 21 Jun 2018 19:15

Another example of twin towers from our past that never got completed.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby willyk » 22 Jun 2018 05:58

Have we seen renderings? Hopefully the developer will take note of the impact that good architecture has had on the success of M&O only a couple of blocks away.

When this building comes on the market it will have to compete with the scads of new inventory that has already been built in this cycle. They would be wise to shoot for something compelling.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby tamtagon » 22 Jun 2018 08:35

How long is a cycle?

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Jun 2018 08:59

willyk wrote:Have we seen renderings? Hopefully the developer will take note of the impact that good architecture has had on the success of M&O only a couple of blocks away.

When this building comes on the market it will have to compete with the scads of new inventory that has already been built in this cycle. They would be wise to shoot for something compelling.

The renderings are the ones already in this thread above. The DMN article talks in detail about them.


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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby eburress » 10 Jul 2018 17:48

Well it's a pretty building, but I still hate they're planning to knock down the existing buildings - especially since there's room to fit this on the property without doing so.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby dallaz » 10 Jul 2018 19:02

eburress wrote:Well it's a pretty building, but I still hate they're planning to knock down the existing buildings - especially since there's room to fit this on the property without doing so.

I kinda don’t like that as well. I just really wish they would rethink the ground level of the building.

This building will be very noticeable among the surrounding buildings in Uptown. I believe the other buildings are under 400 ft. I guess we can look forward to add height in the Uptown skyline, if nothing else.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby R1070 » 10 Jul 2018 21:16

The ground level design belongs in the Legacy/Frisco area.


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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby ContriveDallasite » 11 Jul 2018 03:07

It's a nice looking tower.

But, The setback is ridiculous and they should find a way to work with the existing buildings.

Little dream of mine - they find a way to make this happen on the Old Warsaw site.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 12 Jul 2018 11:57

https://candysdirt.com/2018/07/11/oak-l ... -and-more/

Cedar-Maple-Exterior-1.jpg


...At ground level there will be two stand-alone restaurant spaces. The larger one will be a more formal option like a Hillstone or R+D. The smaller building is slated for something the architects call “fast casual” like a La Madeline or an equivalent...

...While architects GFF talked about a sundry-type store in the lobby of the main building,..

... it’s placed all 1,672 parking spaces across seven underground levels...

...the parcels are zoned for 240 feet in height and they want to nearly double that to 425 feet. That translates to 25 stories of office, a two-story lobby, and a top-floor amenity space. They’re also asking for a nearly 50 percent increase to their allowed FAR (floor area ratio) from 4:1 to 6:1.

The reason is simple economics. The cost to dig seven underground stories is enormous – call it $59 million — yes, million. To offset that spend, the building has to go up. The question is whether the acre of green space in the middle of Uptown is worth the height...

...Oak Lawn Committee Secretary Michael Milliken made a very valid point to those afraid of the height, essentially telling members that what Granite and GFF presented is precisely what the OLC has asked developers to bring for years. His point was to remind those wanting to “what if” a shorter, squattier building with far less green space...

...Any way you look at it, you won’t be seeing this crop up next year. These guys wanted to get an early start with approvals, so you won’t see groundbreaking for two years once permits are secured (and the trade war is over?).
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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 12 Jul 2018 12:04

Green space just for the sake of green space isn't valuable. Hell South Dallas has lots of green space. Green space is only useful if it's thoughtfully integrated and I still argue this space isn't.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby dallaz » 12 Jul 2018 19:34

cowboyeagle05 wrote:https://candysdirt.com/2018/07/11/oak-lawn-committee-sees-possible-signature-building-near-crescent-court-and-more/

Cedar-Maple-Exterior-1.jpg

...At ground level there will be two stand-alone restaurant spaces. The larger one will be a more formal option like a Hillstone or R+D. The smaller building is slated for something the architects call “fast casual” like a La Madeline or an equivalent...

...While architects GFF talked about a sundry-type store in the lobby of the main building,..

... it’s placed all 1,672 parking spaces across seven underground levels...

...the parcels are zoned for 240 feet in height and they want to nearly double that to 425 feet. That translates to 25 stories of office, a two-story lobby, and a top-floor amenity space. They’re also asking for a nearly 50 percent increase to their allowed FAR (floor area ratio) from 4:1 to 6:1.

The reason is simple economics. The cost to dig seven underground stories is enormous – call it $59 million — yes, million. To offset that spend, the building has to go up. The question is whether the acre of green space in the middle of Uptown is worth the height...

...Oak Lawn Committee Secretary Michael Milliken made a very valid point to those afraid of the height, essentially telling members that what Granite and GFF presented is precisely what the OLC has asked developers to bring for years. His point was to remind those wanting to “what if” a shorter, squattier building with far less green space...

...Any way you look at it, you won’t be seeing this crop up next year. These guys wanted to get an early start with approvals, so you won’t see groundbreaking for two years once permits are secured (and the trade war is over?).

Again, nice building but RETHINK the ground level! What in the hell is the obsession with motorcourts in this City?!? This isn’t Frisco or Plano. Just when I thought developers in Dallas would get it...I’m proven wrong.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby Cbdallas » 13 Jul 2018 10:08

How else would they valet the cars for the restaurants.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2018 11:19

News agencies like to point to Uber/Lyft-tification but I doubt that's what is truly driving every 80's office tower in Downtown Dallas to build motor courts as their biggest updates.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby dallaz » 13 Jul 2018 11:46

Cbdallas wrote:How else would they valet the cars for the restaurants.

Even without the restaurants, the likelihood of a motorcourt would be high. Dallas developers haven’t been able to totally shake their car-centic ideals, even in urban settings like Uptown.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2018 11:51

Dallas a city that champions "urban lite" so you can still drive a fully loaded truck and park without consequences anywhere you want and tell yourself you are a modern urban millennial.

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Re: Uptown Dallas: Cedar Maple Plaza I,II & III (2301 Cedar Springs Rd.)

Postby R1070 » 13 Jul 2018 22:29

The valet just needs to be moved to the back and a plaza of some sort should go in that spot at the intersection.


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