DFW Airport

[tamtagon]

I'm not one who thinks US airports are crumbling, especially DFW which wins the prize for best North American airport, like, all the time.

I am one of those who thinks the giant duty-free shopping mall (and office space and more hotel rooms) is a key component in the growth of DFW as primary portal.

[Hannibal Lecter]

...especially DFW which wins the prize for best North American airport, like, all the time.

Source?

[Alex Rodriguez]

I think its a lot of bluster from AA trying to get DFW to foot more of the bill for D. D is going to cost 3 billion alone, and thats with the people mover already finished, sitting there waiting for a terminal to service.

Teardown/rebuild of terminals, tram, roads, taxiways will probably cost more than 1/2 of the entire net valuation of American Airlines Group. 20 Billion on the low end. Aint nobody got that kind of money.

I presume you meant to say F, not D, in your first paragraph. Where did you get the idea the new terminal will cost $3 Billion?

You are correct I meant to say F. D cost $1.16 Billion and was completed 12 years ago. It would be minimum 5 years before its completed, so that is 17 years later. Construction costs have increased significantly in 17 years, it would be a miracle to complete F under $2 Billion. Likely between $2-3 Billion.

[tamtagon]

...especially DFW which wins the prize for best North American airport, like, all the time.

Source?

I read it on the Internet.... HA!

here's one for passenger satisfaction...

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw-airport/2017/03/06/dfw-international-airport-named-best-large-airport-north-america-passenger-experience

DFW International Airport was recognized Monday as the best large airport in North America for passenger satisfaction, according to a report by a leading airport industry group.

maybe not the best all the time, but DFW certainly has improved. DFW needs to try harder.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ OK, I'll let you have that one. But that's a very small group of competitors. Certainly not best overall.

[Tucy]

I think its a lot of bluster from AA trying to get DFW to foot more of the bill for D. D is going to cost 3 billion alone, and thats with the people mover already finished, sitting there waiting for a terminal to service.

Teardown/rebuild of terminals, tram, roads, taxiways will probably cost more than 1/2 of the entire net valuation of American Airlines Group. 20 Billion on the low end. Aint nobody got that kind of money.

I presume you meant to say F, not D, in your first paragraph. Where did you get the idea the new terminal will cost $3 Billion?

You are correct I meant to say F. D cost $1.16 Billion and was completed 12 years ago. It would be minimum 5 years before its completed, so that is 17 years later. Construction costs have increased significantly in 17 years, it would be a miracle to complete F under $2 Billion. Likely between $2-3 Billion.

Ahhhh, yes; so to summarize, you just made it up. Just like you made up the parts about tearing down the existing taxiways, roadways, terminals etc and replacing them for $20 Billion ++

[Alex Rodriguez]

I presume you meant to say F, not D, in your first paragraph. Where did you get the idea the new terminal will cost $3 Billion?

You are correct I meant to say F. D cost $1.16 Billion and was completed 12 years ago. It would be minimum 5 years before its completed, so that is 17 years later. Construction costs have increased significantly in 17 years, it would be a miracle to complete F under $2 Billion. Likely between $2-3 Billion.

Ahhhh, yes; so to summarize, you just made it up. Just like you made up the parts about tearing down the existing taxiways, roadways, terminals etc and replacing them for $20 Billion ++

Its an educated guess, not sure why you are taking it personal. It's going to be north of 2 Billion at this point, and likely closer to 3. That's not a knock on anyone. A complete teardown of all terminals and tram, and building of ginomous new 170 gate terminal is going to be a huge project. Laguardia is not even remotely comparable in scope and size. 10 Billion is a conservative estimate, maybe 20 Billion is high but its going to be between 10 and 20.

All I'm saying is that the chances of a complete teardown/redesign of DFW are almost nil despite what it's biggest tenant is complaining about. American airlines is basically worth 2 or 3 DFW airport redesigns at best, and that is just 1 airport. Yes it's hub, but nobody has 10 Billion - 20 Billion to do this project.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[Tucy]

You are correct I meant to say F. D cost $1.16 Billion and was completed 12 years ago. It would be minimum 5 years before its completed, so that is 17 years later. Construction costs have increased significantly in 17 years, it would be a miracle to complete F under $2 Billion. Likely between $2-3 Billion.

Ahhhh, yes; so to summarize, you just made it up. Just like you made up the parts about tearing down the existing taxiways, roadways, terminals etc and replacing them for $20 Billion ++

Its an educated guess, not sure why you are taking it personal. It's going to be north of 2 Billion at this point, and likely closer to 3. That's not a knock on anyone. A complete teardown of all terminals and tram, and building of ginomous new 170 gate terminal is going to be a huge project. Laguardia is not even remotely comparable in scope and size. 10 Billion is a conservative estimate, maybe 20 Billion is high but its going to be between 10 and 20.

All I'm saying is that the chances of a complete teardown/redesign of DFW are almost nil despite what it's biggest tenant is complaining about. American airlines is basically worth 2 or 3 DFW airport redesigns at best, and that is just 1 airport. Yes it's hub, but nobody has 10 Billion - 20 Billion to do this project.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Yeah, pretty sure nobody is asking for or giving serious thought to a complete teardown/redesign of the entire airport.

[Alex Rodriguez]

I think AA is looking for some deal with DFW for Terminal F and/or Terminal C.

The airport just spent over a billion dollars renovating A, B, and E. The logistics required to bulldoze all 5 terminals to build one GIANT terminal that has the same amount or more gates (DFW has 165 currently, PHX has 116) would be insane and in my opinion would seriously hurt AA since it's their largest hub.

Per the post on Anet, think central terminal like PHX or IAH with long linear concourses on either side. Think Delta's DTW McNamara terminal. That almost one mile concourse has like 64 gates. So two of those gets you 128 gates right there. Again, the median of International Parkway is more than wide enough to fit a terminal like PHX or IAH in it, and AA gets out of having to have man power in four different terminals.

Build it on Terminal F spot and south. Move the crossing taxis over the Parkway further south, way south down where the end of runway taxiway is. DFW is in South flow 90% of the year and it would make more efficient for aircraft ops.

Alot of this is speculation, we will see what AA and DFW comes up with.

[Alex Rodriguez]

Over on an airline enthusiast website, they are stating AA wants to move away from the horse shoe concept and move to something like IAH or PHX terminal layout. Expect an announcement soon.

A terminal layout like IAH or PHX would work being built in the median of International Parkway. Speeds would definately be lowered and International Parkway would have to cease being a conduit to get from Grapevine to Arlington.

[Matt777]

Rumor on Airliners.net is that Cathay Pacific, the airline of Hong Kong, will be launching HKG-DFW to complement Oneworld partner AA's service to Hong Kong. I have flown them twice, and their service is excellent in all classes!

[PonyUp13]

The talk of a PHX or IAH style terminal redo on airliners isn't based on anything at all. I wouldn't even say it's from particularly knowledgeable posters that are saying it. It makes sense AA wants to strategically evaluate since you have major decisions to make about the best spot of the legacy terminals (C) and the only open land to be made

I could see them trying to over time redevelop the half circles into a long linear terminal on each side of Intl Parkway to avoid throwing away work they've just done

[tamtagon]

I think we'll see modifications to skylink before we see terminal rebuilds, allowing oval routes A-B and C-D and E-F as well as the current whole airport tour.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ A much bigger need is to bring back streetside (outside of security) trains. It shouldn't take 25 minutes to get back to your car after you get your bags. Unfortunately AA is all about getting connecting baggage between planes and doesn't give a damn about local folks, so no way they'll let the airport spend money on that. I had an ORD-DFW flight last year where we spent less time in the air than we did waiting for the bags. Not exaggerating. By comparison, I was shocked at ATL two weeks ago when Delta had our bags on the carousel before we made it to baggage claim.

[muncien]

^ A much bigger need is to bring back streetside (outside of security) trains. It shouldn't take 25 minutes to get back to your car after you get your bags.

No kidding... Such a system should be much smaller scale (2-4 people max), but with much greater frequency (on demand), and A-Z custom route automation. It could run linear along the outside of the service roads, connecting to the N/S ends of each terminal. You could build such a system with extended service to express lots and possibly employee lots, remote lots, and car rental center, with less physical infrastructure than the loopty and massive skylink system.
That would do wonders to cut down on wait times and the countless busses making nauseating hairpin turns all day. In the process, they should also simplify the crazy cloverleaf ramp system.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Rumor on Airliners.net is that Cathay Pacific, the airline of Hong Kong, will be launching HKG-DFW to complement Oneworld partner AA's service to Hong Kong. I have flown them twice, and their service is excellent in all classes!

Turn's out that the teased "Dxxxxx" was Dublin, not Dallas.

[The_Overdog]

No kidding... Such a system should be much smaller scale (2-4 people max), but with much greater frequency (on demand), and A-Z custom route automation.

What? DFW is setup perfectly in this regard. If getting to your car quickly is a priority to you, then you have to pay to park in the garage right outside the terminal. It makes no sense to spend much money on anything other than the buses they have to get to remote parking lots.

[tamtagon]

The non-secure tram system will accompany to connect the mixed use aerotropolis build-up inside the horseshoes.

[muncien]

No kidding... Such a system should be much smaller scale (2-4 people max), but with much greater frequency (on demand), and A-Z custom route automation.

What? DFW is setup perfectly in this regard. If getting to your car quickly is a priority to you, then you have to pay to park in the garage right outside the terminal. It makes no sense to spend much money on anything other than the buses they have to get to remote parking lots.

Sadly, that is a very good point. While a small scale PRT system may be able to be built within a reasonable price point of the bus fleet and man power costs of the current system, they would take a financial hit on the parking side of it as there would be less benefit to parking so close. Unless of course, the raised the fees of the remote lot to be closer to that of the close in lots (airports have never shied away from raising the cost to park).

There's also the possibility that airports could be some of the first adopters to automated pod cars that simply use the existing road/ramp system as 'guideways'. Rolling out such systems in a controlled, well known/mapped road system such as DFW airport actually makes a lot of sense. Curious how much such a system would cost to the users, and how much of it would be footed by the airport, being that they control the start/end points and it's to their own benefit.

[Hannibal Lecter]

No kidding... Such a system should be much smaller scale (2-4 people max), but with much greater frequency (on demand), and A-Z custom route automation.

What? DFW is setup perfectly in this regard. If getting to your car quickly is a priority to you, then you have to pay to park in the garage right outside the terminal. It makes no sense to spend much money on anything other than the buses they have to get to remote parking lots.

You've obviously never flown AA at DFW. Rule #1: You NEVER return to the same terminal you left from. NEVER.

This has nothing to do with the remote lots.

[The_Overdog]

You NEVER return to the same terminal you left from. NEVER.

I have before and returned to the same terminal actually, but fair enough. A quick check shows it's about 10% into the same terminal - mine was a unicorn. I think that would be better fixed by changing AA procedures to be more customer friendly, but I agree its a problem.

[Hannibal Lecter]

AA's main concern in terminal assignments is grouping aircraft types. Go out on 737 and return on an A321 and you're probably screwed.

http://crankyflier.com/2015/10/01/if-yo ... ft-wisely/

[Matt777]

WOW Air of Iceland, a low cost carrier, will be starting DFW-Reykjavik flights in May 2018. 3 flights per week on an Airbus A330. Fares start at $99 one way to Iceland, and $149 one way connecting flights to Europe (with everything including bags costing extra). Hopefully this will at least give us some price relief on nonstops to Europe with the traditional carriers, who seem to be gouging lately.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/09/06/wow- ... w-airport/

[Tivo_Kenevil]

WOW Air of Iceland, a low cost carrier, will be starting DFW-Reykjavik flights in May 2018. 3 flights per week on an Airbus A330. Fares start at $99 one way to Iceland, and $149 one way connecting flights to Europe (with everything including bags costing extra). Hopefully this will at least give us some price relief on nonstops to Europe with the traditional carriers, who seem to be gouging lately.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/09/06/wow- ... w-airport/

They suck. Last year I took a connecting flight from DC to Iceland. They were 9 hrs late. Fortunately, I was able to get a refund.

[TNWE]

You NEVER return to the same terminal you left from. NEVER.

I have before and returned to the same terminal actually, but fair enough. A quick check shows it's about 10% into the same terminal - mine was a unicorn. I think that would be better fixed by changing AA procedures to be more customer friendly, but I agree its a problem.

Changing AA's procedures to be more customer friendly? Do you expect them to take a poll of all the passengers on the plane to see where the majority of them parked? Or perhaps they could install "stop request" buttons at each seat so people could indicate which terminal they want as the plane taxis past

My solution for this grievous problem is for passengers to use Express/Remote/Off Airport parking (or Uber/Lyft, or DART, or Taxi/Limousine) for trips so long they need to worry about claiming your checked baggage. Given the cost of Terminal garage parking, it would save those people money, and we don't need to rebuild the whole airport or spend money on reviving the TrAAin.

[The_Overdog]

Do you expect them to take a poll of all the passengers on the plane to see where the majority of them parked?

No of course not, but flight pairs to specific airports (for example LAX) could take off and land from the same terminal. Would that really be that difficult to implement?

[TNWE]

Do you expect them to take a poll of all the passengers on the plane to see where the majority of them parked?

No of course not, but flight pairs to specific airports (for example LAX) could take off and land from the same terminal. Would that really be that difficult to implement?

In all probability, yeah. Saying "all flights to/from LAX will depart from A" limits their options to swap aircraft if the scheduled plane needs maintenance, or swap gates if all the A gates are full when the flight arrives. Plus, some travelers may fly nonstop *to* LAX, but connect in PHX on the way back, or be connecting to an international flight at LAX, and flying back to DFW non-stop, which would dump them out at D.

So they could do that, it just wouldn't really help much.

[electricron]

There's a reason why DFW installed the People Mover to interconnect all 5 existing terminals, and already set up and in place for a future terminal F.

And if you're like most wise and cheap customers, you're parking in the remote parking lots and will be riding a bus to your parked car anyways.

So can we stop this nonsense about airlines using the same terminals?
We should just be happy that there is any available gate the jet can use.

[Matt777]

Icelandair joins WOW Air in providing DFW-Reykjavik flights in May. Many DFW-KEF-Europe connections will be offered. Unlike Wow, Icelandair allows 2 free checked bags as well as on board refreshments, and a more comfortable business class.

Flights a 4x per week on Boeing 757 equipment.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 667376001/

[Hannibal Lecter]

And if you're like most wise and cheap customers, you're parking in the remote parking lots and will be riding a bus to your parked car anyways.

The wise and cheap demographic gets a friend or family member to drop them off. Your business travelers aren't worried about the cost -- they just expense it.

I Googled and Googled and couldn't find the exact figures, but I know that DFW has a LOT more terminal parking spaces than they have remote spaces. And my experience has been that the terminal lots are usually more full except around the holidays.

[electricron]

The wise and cheap demographic gets a friend or family member to drop them off. Your business travelers aren't worried about the cost -- they just expense it.

I Googled and Googled and couldn't find the exact figures, but I know that DFW has a LOT more terminal parking spaces than they have remote spaces. And my experience has been that the terminal lots are usually more full except around the holidays.

True, but it will be just the businessmen and women living in the DFW metro using the parking garages, those visiting DFW will be using the rental car lots and riding their shuttles. The local businessmen should know about the airport's People Mover, so that it should not be a problem at which terminal the return flight lands at.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ You can't use the existing people mover if you have checked baggage. That's the problem.

[Matt777]

^ You can't use the existing people mover if you have checked baggage. That's the problem.

This is a legitimate question that I hope somebody knows the answer to; Why are baggage claims outside of the secure area? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the baggage claims before leaving the secured area, so you can collect your baggage and then use the Skylink to get to another terminal where your car is, or where you might have another flight booked on a separate ticket or where they could not check your baggage through to your final destination?

Also, having baggage claim inside the secure area prevents people from walking in off the street and stealing bags. I'm not sure that's a common problem, but I could see how easy it would be.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ So you pack your 1 liter bottle of water, 8 ounce tube of toothpaste and/or Aunt Mary's cherry pie -- all of which are verboten in carry on luggage -- in your checked bag, fly to another airport, transfer them to your carry on an board another plane?

[Matt777]

^ So you pack your 1 liter bottle of water, 8 ounce tube of toothpaste and/or Aunt Mary's cherry pie -- all of which are verboten in carry on luggage -- in your checked bag, fly to another airport, transfer them to your carry on an board another plane?

Makes sense.

[I45Tex]

https://airlinegeeks.com/2017/11/04/eti ... -airlines/

Service to Abu Dhabi will discontinue in March.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Not because of a lack of traffic. Because AA killed their code-sharing agreement.

[jrd1964]

The new north cell phone parking area is open. It is in the center median of Intl. Pkwy. between the N. Airfield Dr. overpass and the north toll plaza.

https://www.dfwairport.com/cellphonelot/index.php
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw ... arking-lot

A south lot is planned, but it is unclear when and where it will be placed.

[Matt777]

This is a few days old, but American Airlines is starting seasonal summer service next year DFW-KEF (Reykjavik, Iceland), joining WOW Air and Icelandair on this crowded route. It seems to be a 100% retaliatory move, although American will fly daily and will have opportunities for US connections from markets that don't have the low cost competition, increasing their yields. Equipment is 757.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 862461001/

[gbud]

"Dallas/Fort Worth Airport has an impressive seven runways, but one of them is about to be shut down for awhile.

The airport’s busiest runway, 17C/35C, will get a facelift in 2018, officials said this week. The plan was announced after the airport received $52 million in federal grant funds for runway rehabilitation."

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/article186840903.html

[gbud]

"Dallas-area residents will have a new option to fly nonstop to Seattle starting next spring.

Spirit Airlines announced Wednesday that it will start daily nonstop flights from DFW International Airport to Seattle Tacoma International Airport starting April 12.

The Florida-based low-cost carrier joins American, Southwest and Alaska airlines in offering nonstop flights to the West Coast city that's home to online retail giant Amazon. D-FW is considered a top contender to become the second headquarters for the Seattle-based company, which also operates six fulfillment centers in North Texas."

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2017/11/29/spirit-airlines-start-nonstop-flights-dfw-airport-seattle

[tamtagon]

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw ... terminal-d

DFW Airport unveils country's largest duty-free store inside Terminal D

Conor Shine, Aviation Writer

...That’s coincided with a shift at DFW and elsewhere that has seen duty-free stores moving away from the days when only outbound international passengers could shop there and instead cater to shoppers of all types. At DFW, domestic passengers in the terminal can buy anything at the duty-free store except liquor and cigarettes.
...“If we’re going to compete globally, we have to have the same design elements that are found in other parts of the globe. In fact, we want to excel beyond those,” he said.
...Its opening will provide a financial boost for DFW Airport, which counts concessions as its second-largest source of non-airline revenue — about $82 million in the most recent fiscal year — after parking.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... unges-spot

Not an elite frequent flier? A new breed of airport lounges has a spot for you

Conor Shine, Aviation Writer

Around the country, travelers looking to relax with a snack and a drink before their flight are finding more and more options to visit an airport lounge, even if they don't have elite status on one of the country's major airlines. It’s part of a growing nationwide trend that’s seen third-party lounges — already popular at airports across Europe and Asia — taking up residence at U.S. hubs, including DFW International Airport. These lounge operators are aiming to capitalize on the shifting airline loyalty landscape and growing numbers of international visitors to the U.S. to attract an audience of lounge-savvy travelers in need of a place to unwind.
...“It’s very interesting to watch,” Harteveldt said of the lounge developments. “It’s no longer the invited few or the road warrior that have access to [airport] lounges.”

The transformation is painfully slow, but airports are finally starting to figure it out. The space between the terminals is more important than the devotion to legacy carriers artificially created by manipulated air travel industry. As the country's airport facilities amenities catch up to and exceed the what's available in the rest of the world, a layover will no longer be seen as an inconvenience or price trade-off but for many grow into a planned part of a trip: the airport as part of the destination.

[Matt777]

A Spa Castle/King Spa type setup at DFW would be incredible. Seoul has one and it's very popular with connecting travelers.

[jrd1964]

In recent days, the south acreage along TX 183 between County Line Rd. and Valley View Ln. has been the site of tree cutting. As of the last couple of nights, the cut down trees and brush have not been cleared as of yet. The airport has brought up before about having some kind of mixed-use project built on their land; maybe this is the spot, if so (?).

[NdoorTX]

I noticed that today as well. It was sad to see all those trees clear cut. I hope the development that does take place will remediate and replace them. If not on the site, somewhere else on the airport grounds. Like the southern entrance. Hopefully we will hear more of this project soon.

[jrd1964]

In recent days, the south acreage along TX 183 between County Line Rd. and Valley View Ln. has been the site of tree cutting. As of the last couple of nights, the cut down trees and brush have not been cleared as of yet. The airport has brought up before about having some kind of mixed-use project built on their land; maybe this is the spot, if so (?).

I was able to get these shots (sorry, not the best, cloudy day) a couple of days ago. Hard to get a close, but wide, shot of the area involved.

[flyswatter]

Looks like it's part of the Passport Business Park:

https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 908345.pdf

https://www.dfwairport.com/landhere/dev ... 20Park.php

[jrd1964]

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... fw-airport

The cleared land is for an 86-acre project called Gateway Logistics Center. There will be 5 buildings there, with the first ready by the end of the year.

[NdoorTX]

This sucks. Numerous trees bulldozed for warehouse park. I can't believe any municipality would allow that. You don't need to clearcut every tree in sight. These projects are big concrete boxes no one needs to see. Clear the trees where the building footprint, roadways & other necessary uses are going to be and leave the perimeter alone- except where egress points and maybe a highway sign are. I definitely hope all the trees with qualifying trunk caliper sizes are replaced all throughout the project. It wouldn't hurt to add those required tree replacements at the south entrance to the airport and the barren "hillocks" that comprise the 183/ 360 interchange. What a great way to add some natural beauty as well as offset the toxic fumes and exhaust from all the planes that use DFW.

[jrd1964]

DBJ's coverage:

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... wharf.html