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DFW Airport

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 05 Jun 2020 14:17

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Pro-tip for ATL - if you're getting dropped off and not checking bags, go to the International terminal and clear security there. If you're flying AA/United/Southwest and checking bags, you're SOL, tho.

And yeah, ATL has the benefit of 5 East/West runways with no conflicting approach paths for miles. Watch a flight tracking site (once flight volumes pick back up) and you'll see the giant orderly queues of arriving aircraft being funneled in, whereas the DAL/DFW airspace has all sorts of wild arrival/departure procedures to keep traffic from the two airports from conflicting. Add in Dallas' summer thunderstorms and the fact that DFW has N/S and crosswind runways, it's not uncommon to find your flight turn into a tilt-a-whirl as ATC keeps shifting things around.

As I recall, the FAA tried to prevent that issue back in the 70s, but some "Dallas > Regionalism" voices got their way ;) :lol:

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 05 Jun 2020 16:52

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Good point, except for the exaggeration. Less than 5 miles?

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 05 Jun 2020 17:58

Tucy wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Good point, except for the exaggeration. Less than 5 miles?

Its about 9 miles as the crow flies from the northern edge of DAL's runways to the easternmost edge of DFW's - not the most outrageous exaggeration considering ATC spacing requirements

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 05 Jun 2020 18:18

I got the number from https://disween.com/dallas-tx-us/DAL#:~ ... 20a%20line.

Your starting point United States, Dallas is located at (32.7825, -96.8207).
Your ending point United States, Dallas Love Field (DAL) is located at (32.8470993041992, -96.8517990112305)
Total distance from Dallas to Dallas Love Field (DAL) is 7.75 kms. 7.75 kms equals to 4.81 miles and 4.18 nautical miles.


I thought it sounded low, but not crazily so. 9-10 miles sounds much more reasonable.

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flyswatter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 06 Jun 2020 10:45

Image

Source: ACI

ATL also has a much larger amount of traffic, although right now it is skewed since DL has been more aggressive in drawing their operation down than AA. I can't find DAL's data but it wouldn't surprise me if ATL was higher than both combined.

I do agree though that they have much more airspace to play with and can more easily pick their way around weather. Runways are built to climatology, and ATL generally has E/W winds while DFW usually has N/S (more usually NW/SE). They also have thunderstorms throughout the summer, much more than we do.

I'm a Met for an airline, I see how both react to irregular ops regularly. ZTL/ATL is miles ahead. ZFW/DFW is sad sometimes. They very aggressively shut down routes.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 13 Jul 2020 13:21


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Zmitz
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Zmitz » 31 Jul 2020 10:57

"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 03 Aug 2020 10:36

Zmitz wrote:"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/


Wasn't there a similar delay of Terminal D amid 9/11-related cuts to flying? I seem to remember Terminal D only moving ahead once AA agreed to lease additional gates beyond what they needed for their International service at the time. It was originally designed for and intended to be 100% International arrivals/departures, but up until the merger it was pretty regularly used for handling all-domestic arrival/departures (i.e. planes that came in from a domestic destination and left for a domestic one). Once the merger closed and AA started getting new widebodies, all the new international flights suddenly meant a shortage of widebody-capable gates in D and started running some international departures out of A

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 03 Aug 2020 10:54

TNWE wrote:
Zmitz wrote:"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/


Wasn't there a similar delay of Terminal D amid 9/11-related cuts to flying? I seem to remember Terminal D only moving ahead once AA agreed to lease additional gates beyond what they needed for their International service at the time. It was originally designed for and intended to be 100% International arrivals/departures, but up until the merger it was pretty regularly used for handling all-domestic arrival/departures (i.e. planes that came in from a domestic destination and left for a domestic one). Once the merger closed and AA started getting new widebodies, all the new international flights suddenly meant a shortage of widebody-capable gates in D and started running some international departures out of A


Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 03 Aug 2020 10:58

^ The implosion of the old Hyatt -- where Terminal D now sits -- was originally scheduled for September 16, 2001. It was delayed until October 7th for obvious reasons. There were also some delays due to design changes due to 9/11.

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 04 Aug 2020 15:57

Tucy wrote:Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.


Sure, in the COVID era with fewer planes flying and far fewer international routes, flights will go from wherever there's an open gate (some airlines are leaving planes parked at gates all day and only operating the bare minimum of flights required to keep that particular aircraft "active"- if they sit for too long they need to go through a process for long-term storage that's expensive and time consuming).

In regular operations, though, the vast majority of international flights leave out of D so AA can staff those gates with language-qualified staff, their premium customers can access the Flagship lounge, and the gate areas have the space to accommodate long lines for passport checks and boarding. Up until 5-ish years ago there really weren't many AA international destinations from DFW besides LHR, NRT, CDG, FRA, and some Mexico/South America routes that all left in the afternoon, so the rest of the day the ~2/3s of gates in D that AA controls were handling domestic turns.

Point is, "indefinitely" doesn't mean "never"- The DFW airport board just wasn't going to commit to a specific timeframe for starting on Terminal F until they have a better idea of when demand will come back.

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 04 Aug 2020 16:46

TNWE wrote:
Tucy wrote:Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.


Sure, in the COVID era with fewer planes flying and far fewer international routes, flights will go from wherever there's an open gate (some airlines are leaving planes parked at gates all day and only operating the bare minimum of flights required to keep that particular aircraft "active"- if they sit for too long they need to go through a process for long-term storage that's expensive and time consuming).

In regular operations, though, the vast majority of international flights leave out of D so AA can staff those gates with language-qualified staff, their premium customers can access the Flagship lounge, and the gate areas have the space to accommodate long lines for passport checks and boarding. Up until 5-ish years ago there really weren't many AA international destinations from DFW besides LHR, NRT, CDG, FRA, and some Mexico/South America routes that all left in the afternoon, so the rest of the day the ~2/3s of gates in D that AA controls were handling domestic turns.

Point is, "indefinitely" doesn't mean "never"- The DFW airport board just wasn't going to commit to a specific timeframe for starting on Terminal F until they have a better idea of when demand will come back.


Your reasons for operating international departures from Terminal D apply just as strongly (and probably more so) in the COVID era. Nothing about the reduction in flights pushes them to move international flights away from Terminal D. As has always been the case, many international flights depart from the gate to which the aircraft arrived from a previous domestic segment. No reason to move to Terminal D.

Point is, international departures happen from all terminals on a regular basis. Always have and always will.

FWIW, I didn't make any hint of a suggestion that Terminal F was never going to happen. Of course, it will depend on the expected return of demand.

itsjrd1964
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby itsjrd1964 » 03 Sep 2020 14:49

DFW Airport to vote on demolishing, rebuilding Terminal C gates

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... nal-c.html

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tamtagon
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 14 Sep 2020 06:21

https://www.newsbreak.com/california/lo ... ay-to-asia
American Airlines moving to make DFW Airport its gateway to Asia

Fort Worth-based American Airlines is moving much of its Asian traffic from the Southern California international flying hub to DFW, a move that could open more opportunities for North Texas to access business and leisure destinations but disrupt how much of the country gets across the Pacific.

American is making the move after decades of considering LAX its trans-Pacific hub to fly to destinations such as Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul and even Auckland, New Zealand. But the landscape is changing with the growth of traffic across the Pacific.

“Dallas certainly doesn’t have the best geography for an Asian hub,” said Brian Znotins, American’s vice president of network and schedule planning. “But it does have some advantages in connecting people in the Southeast [United States] to Asia.”
...
Last year, it fulfilled a plan to put 900 flights a day out of DFW, its fortress hub that can connect to nearly any other location it serves in the country. About 26% of all of American’s traffic goes through DFW, almost twice as much as what goes through its next biggest hub in Charlotte, N.C.

That makes DFW an attractive launching point for Asia because it would be a single stop for most of American’s U.S. travelers, said Nico Mirman, a Dallas-based aviation consultant with Ailevon Pacific. DFW is also a convenient connecting point for travelers from Latin America, Mirman said.

“What American is probably thinking is to capitalize on the huge amount of connectivity that they get here,” Mirman said. “That’s something Los Angeles cannot offer for them.”

DFW has room to grow, too. The airport property is roughly the size of the island of Manhattan. There are plans for a new $3 billion terminal F at DFW that would give 24 more gates, mostly to American Airlines. While the pandemic put those plans on hold, airport officials expect the project to only be pushed back, not scrapped.
...
However, the designation of trans-Pacific hub might not mean that DFW gets as much traffic across the ocean as LAX did. American also formed a partnership with Alaska Airlines in February and, as part of that, it created a new route from Seattle to Bangalore, India. That gives American another West Coast launching point.
...
“In a lot of ways, this is more about reducing L.A. than boosting DFW,” Znotins said. “Every Asian carrier feels the need to serve L.A. and that creates overcapacity. Even going into the pandemic, we were losing money on those L.A. flights.”
...
“LAX is becoming very expensive for airlines to operate from and it’s extremely competitive, and that tends to lower airfares,” said Henry Harteveldt, a travel consultant based in San Francisco. “It’s a matter of American focusing on where it can have the best return on a very expensive asset.”
...
“I would guess that it’s going to be several years before there are new markets for American or other carriers,” Donohue said.

But American’s choice of DFW as its trans-Pacific hub means North Texas travelers will have direct access to Asia, he said.

“From a long-term perspective, it gives us the strength of the service,” he said. " We are going to have service to the key major Asian business destinations."

———

©2020 The Dallas Morning News

Visit The Dallas Morning News at http://www.dallasnews.com

Distributed by Tribune Content Agency, LLC.


LAX us loaded up with airlines, competition that makes airfare lower... so AA is moving some operation to DFW to make more money.

Watch airfare at DFW begin to creep back up, rising above the industry average like it was before Love Field was mostly deregulated.

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby MC_ScattCat » 14 Sep 2020 14:08

I would say on international routes for sure. Some routes with competition between other airlines or SWA then maybe less so. I have found more often than not SWA and AAL are the same prices on routes from Dallas to most destinations. I do mileage runs (well used to) and often I start my trip from IAH or AUS for international routes when flying OneWorld. It's still often way cheaper to add position flights than start in Dallas.

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 15 Sep 2020 15:52

tamtagon wrote:LAX us loaded up with airlines, competition that makes airfare lower... so AA is moving some operation to DFW to make more money.

Watch airfare at DFW begin to creep back up, rising above the industry average like it was before Love Field was mostly deregulated.


That's not how airfare pricing works. Pre-pandemic, AA served most Asia routes from DFW and LAX, and in general the LAX flights were lower-yielding because all of the LAX-Asia nonstop routes had intense competition. Even if you chose to fly DFW-LAX-Asia, the fare wouldn't be cheaper than the DFW-Asia nonstop because Airlines don't sell plane tickets as the combination of point to point fares for each segment (unless you bought two separate tickets, in which case you'd be SOL in the event a delay causes you to miss the connecting flight).

What's happening is that AA has recognized that going forward, they'll have less demand for flights to Asia, so if they're gonna fly to a given city 1x a day, they'd rather do it from DFW, where they have more connecting flights than LAX. All things being equal, the airfares that Angelinos pay for flights to Asia will probably increase, but the airfares in DFW will largely stay the same (or change for factors unrelated to AA's announcement).

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saxman
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby saxman » 08 Oct 2020 21:43

Those high C gates were an add on to terminal C sometime in the 80's or 90's, I believe. You go down a ramp and the space is whofully inadequate. I hope they work on the entirety of C one of these days. It's the only terminal left with the old floor tile that AA installed in the early 90's.


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