DART D2 Subway

[Tivo_Kenevil]

FTA, DART slates meetings on proposed D2 Subway

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... way--57292

[TNWE]

Can't wait to see what trips up the process this time. Last time it was NIMBYs in half a million dollar townhomes, and DART caved to them. There's no way the current plan gets through without another group finding some nit to pick and sending DART back to the drawing board for another 4 years...

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ One can only hope. Crossing fingers!

[muncien]

^ One can only hope. Crossing fingers!

HA! I was thinking the exact same thing! Unlike you, I DO prefer a viable D2 route. But, this ain't it. In the scramble to appease everyone, they benefit almost nobody. This is a mess... and a VERY EXPENSIVE one, at that.

[trueicon]

This is far better than the alternatives. I'm glad DART actually listened because their preferred alignment was even closer to duplicating the existing Pacific Ave corridor. At least the Commerce St. alignment brings portals in the hot spots of downtown (Main Street, Discovery District, Main Street Garden Park, etc.) which will bring much more activity to the streets. As great as this will be for downtown stakeholders/residents, DART's main reason for doing this, of course, is to increase capacity throughout the system.

The real mess is DART's plan to put the streetcar extension on top of Commerce St.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

My problem is how they go back up near ground level in VP. I wanna see what this will look like...

[muncien]

The new stations don't provide service to anybody who couldn't already easily access an existing station.
The above-grade/below-grade argument is a farce. Everybody's darling of an 'urban city', Portland, is covered in at-grade light rail and streetcars, and the city thrives because of it, not in spite of it. Being at grade allows stops at nearly every block, while going underground limits you to a few stations. Pacific Ave's problems are related to the cores problems as a whole (more residents please!) and have nothing to do with the DART line.
The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.

[Matt777]

The new stations don't provide service to anybody who couldn't already easily access an existing station.
The above-grade/below-grade argument is a farce. Everybody's darling of an 'urban city', Portland, is covered in at-grade light rail and streetcars, and the city thrives because of it, not in spite of it. Being at grade allows stops at nearly every block, while going underground limits you to a few stations. Pacific Ave's problems are related to the cores problems as a whole (more residents please!) and have nothing to do with the DART line.
The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.

I've said it before, but we should go back to being a streetcar city like Dallas used to be, use DART light rail as the "spines," and then streetcar lines radiating out from the dart rail stations.

[muncien]

I have a dumb question that maybe someone on here can help with...
Is it possible for the Brooville Liberty streetcars to run on the the DART light-rail tracks? I believe they use the same rail gauge, but I know nothing about other specs such as voltage, height limits, etc.
I only ask because it seems like an at grade D2 along Canton (connecting just south of convention center) to Pearle/Chavez (connecting by East Transfer Station) would support by DART light rail needs as well as allow a circular streetcar route around the CBD.
Of course, there aint much along Canton now, but that will change in the future... and, leaving it out in the cold from a transit perspective just seems dumb.
Of course, a streetcar route through EMC should come much sooner...

[TNWE]

I have a dumb question that maybe someone on here can help with...
Is it possible for the Brooville Liberty streetcars to run on the the DART light-rail tracks? I believe they use the same rail gauge, but I know nothing about other specs such as voltage, height limits, etc.
I only ask because it seems like an at grade D2 along Canton (connecting just south of convention center) to Pearle/Chavez (connecting by East Transfer Station) would support by DART light rail needs as well as allow a circular streetcar route around the CBD.
Of course, there aint much along Canton now, but that will change in the future... and, leaving it out in the cold from a transit perspective just seems dumb.
Of course, a streetcar route through EMC should come much sooner...

The Brookville cars have a boarding sill height a couple inches lower than DART SLRVs, otherwise the same voltage, track gauge, etc. (The Dallas streetcar has a nonrevenue connecting track to get it to the DART yard for maintenance and it joins the DART red/blue line tracks under the Houston street bridge to get there, but I don't know if it travels there under battery power or uses the OCS)

DART Specs: http://www.kinkisharyo.com/main/wp-cont ... 8/DART.pdf
Brookville Specs:https://www.brookvillecorp.com/Files/Admin/PDFs/BROOKVILLE-Liberty-Modern-Streetcars-2015-WebRes.pdf

So the main challenge would be the platforms- for rail and streetcar to use the same stations and offer level boarding, there'd need to be the "humps" like they have at outlying stations (and are being removed as a part of the platform extensions, I believe)

[electricron]

While the streetcars can run over DART's light rail tracks, why would you want to do so?Their floor heights are different, so all the platforms' heights will have to be changed again to allow level boarding. The streetcars have a much slower maximum speed, which could affect train scheduling, as the faster trains could get stuck behind the slower cars.
Realize they are built to different specifications for different purposes, and the rail corridors they run on are also different.

Having said that, I can see DART running streetcars on shared tracks for short distances with light rail trains, especially near downtown on the Bryan/Pacific street mall or something very similar. Platforms can be modified to make it worth. But before that can happen, light rail traffic on the shared route would have to be far less than what Bryan/Pacific has today.

[muncien]

While the streetcars can run over DART's light rail tracks, why would you want to do so?Their floor heights are different, so all the platforms' heights will have to be changed again to allow level boarding. The streetcars have a much slower maximum speed, which could affect train scheduling, as the faster trains could get stuck behind the slower cars.
Realize they are built to different specifications for different purposes, and the rail corridors they run on are also different.

Having said that, I can see DART running streetcars on shared tracks for short distances with light rail trains, especially near downtown on the Bryan/Pacific street mall or something very similar. Platforms can be modified to make it worth. But before that can happen, light rail traffic on the shared route would have to be far less than what Bryan/Pacific has today.

Right... That is why I mentioned it along with my mythical 'Canton' D2 surface route. It would be like a CBD loop. The streetcars wouldn't venture beyond that, and it would only work once the loop were completed... hence the light rail traffic dispersion.

[trueicon]

The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.

Well, DART is full steam ahead on the completely unnecessary Cotton Belt so I don't see any evidence that their other transit projects are limited in any way. The real point of D2 is to get more trains on the entire system. No matter how you do the math, that results in a huge net-benefit for transit users. Any benefit to those of us living downtown, however, is ancillary -- it's not DART's intention. Putting it underground helps with car traffic, as you point out, but it also improves quality of life in other ways. I can't tell you how many times a loud DART train horn wakes me up.

But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.

No thanks. Subway it is.

[electricron]

But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.
No thanks. Subway it is.

Subway stations will attract more homeless than surface stations; they will be dryer when it rains, they will be warmer when it is cold, they will be cooler when it is hot, all by providing a roof over their heads. DART police will have to chase the homeless away every minute of every day - something they are not staffed for and are not prepared to do.

[itsjrd1964]

With the conditions over the years--especially in recent years--of the elevators and escalators at Cityplace/Uptown and at Mockingbird, DART will obviously need to budget more than they realize toward maintenance and upkeep of elevators and escalators once the stations and infrastructure of the D2 route are in operation.

[TNWE]

But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.
No thanks. Subway it is.

Subway stations will attract more homeless than surface stations; they will be dryer when it rains, they will be warmer when it is cold, they will be cooler when it is hot, all by providing a roof over their heads. DART police will have to chase the homeless away every minute of every day - something they are not staffed for and are not prepared to do.

At one of the open houses, they mentioned DART wanting faregates for all of the subway stations at street level to cut down on loitering below ground level. Not sure how well that will work as one need only walk to a ground level station and connect to the Orange or Green line and soon find themselves in a subway station.

That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.

[lakewoodhobo]

That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.

Honestly, I feel like St Paul Station has more homeless people than West End. West End is certainly full of vagrants and folks buying and selling drugs, but as far as people who are just killing time before heading back to the shelter, St Paul is the place to go.

[Cbdallas]

Has any large city in the US successfully dealt with the homeless I can't think of one and Dallas is way down on the list based on my obervation's and visits to those other cities. I think this just reflects that our metro is now the 4th largest in the country and there is no real solution out there to having a homeless population.

[trueicon]

At one of the open houses, they mentioned DART wanting faregates for all of the subway stations at street level to cut down on loitering below ground level. Not sure how well that will work as one need only walk to a ground level station and connect to the Orange or Green line and soon find themselves in a subway station.

That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.

It absolutely is a reason (and you misquote me, by the way. I said in my original post that it was one of the reasons, not the reason) why West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown. The homeless population (and criminal activity) is virtually nonexistent in the West End past the immediate vicinity of West End Station. Trust me, I've walked past that station and around the West End hundreds of times. If you still don't believe me, you can see for yourself the massive difference it makes when that station is closed -- as you probably know, they aren't running trains through downtown on the weekend while they replace the tracks.

As you point out, the expectation is that subway stations will be fare controlled and enforced from the street level. I can confirm that expectation - I posted the PDF file of the 20% engineering plan on /r/downtowndallas and it includes gates requiring a valid ticket. Yes a homeless person (or criminal) could board the train at other stations and transfer to one of the proposed underground D2 stations, but that requires effort and planning that I don't expect even the finest of our vagrant population to do. I think you're giving them too much credit!

Currently the homeless (mainly) board DART trains from one of the downtown stations above-ground as downtown Dallas is the homeless resource hub for the region (but that is a topic for another time). Access to the trains on the D2 line will be restricted throughout downtown if DART indeed builds the gates. That, if true, would deter a majority of them from loitering in one of the D2 stations because (1) they wouldn't have a convenient above-ground station to enter that line (i.e., the homeless won't park a car at the Parker Rd. DART station to ride down to a subway station along D2), and (2) even if they get off at one of the proposed underground D2 stations, requiring someone to hold a valid train ticket to be in the controlled access area would be a powerful tool for DART officers to prevent any underground D2 station from becoming like the West End.

I stand by my opinion and nobody (especially those who don't actually live downtown) is going to convince me otherwise when I see this daily with my own eyes. By the way, sadly it is NOT just the West End station that is a problem (as has been pointed out in this thread). Spend any time at one of the other above-ground downtown stations during non-commute hours and you'll still see K2 sales, defection, etc. Sadly that's the reality of above-ground stations downtown -- it doesn't work out like it does in Railroad Tycoon.

[art_suckz]

My coworker once saw a homeless person masturbating while watching a trashcan fire on the platform at Union Station.

[The_Overdog]

Fire is pretty exciting. It's like the caveman response

[DPatel304]

[Haretip]

Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.

[quixomniac]

Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.

There's still hope yet for deep ellum!

[cowboyeagle05]

The EPIC probably makes some decision makers change their tune about the Deep Ellum station. Particularly if Uber is considering a move there and would like decent transit access for some of its employees.

[TNWE]

Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.

Anyone else remember the 2015 D2 alignment? You know, the one that could have been built by now if Dallas' elected and appointed leaders weren't trying to "tweak" things according to the whims and desires of a guy whose main business is printing reading material for highland park plastic surgeon's offices...

[cowboyeagle05]

All I remember about the original route is when the Mayor decreed it needed to go by the City Owned Hotel and everyone pointed out how that was a no go but he insisted.

[electricron]

All I remember about the original route is when the Mayor decreed it needed to go by the City Owned Hotel and everyone pointed out how that was a no go but he insisted.

Thankfully, DART is controlled by its own board of directors and not by the mayor of Dallas.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yet last I checked DART kept the option on the board and the city council was able to divert plans with enough screaming and shouting. Overall I was happy that the Council was able to convince DART to change the D2 route because the DART board is not a "body of government" that makes very good decisions. They are pulled in too many directions and focused on new construction more than making their existing systems work better.

[lakewoodhobo]

D2 newsletter is out: https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... ly2019.pdf

Some highlights:

-The project is advancing towards 20% design, with completion of this milestone scheduled for March 2020

-DART is exploring the opportunity to move the Deep Ellum Station to just south of Live Oak Street to allow for continued rail service to this growing area

-Joint meetings between DART, City of Dallas, Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT), and the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG) continue regularly, with a focus on how the D2 tunnel portal under IH 345 works with the various future options for IH 345

A relocated station just south of Live Oak would serve the Latino Cultural Center and the new Tom Thumb.

Screen Shot 2019-08-02 at 8.03.04 AM.png

[DPatel304]

I'd like to see the station moved, rather than relocated altogether. It's also still very close to The Epic and any other potential high-rises that might be built in this area.

[quixomniac]

D2 newsletter is out: https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... ly2019.pdf

Some highlights:

-The project is advancing towards 20% design, with completion of this milestone scheduled for March 2020

-DART is exploring the opportunity to move the Deep Ellum Station to just south of Live Oak Street to allow for continued rail service to this growing area

-Joint meetings between DART, City of Dallas, Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT), and the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG) continue regularly, with a focus on how the D2 tunnel portal under IH 345 works with the various future options for IH 345

A relocated station just south of Live Oak would serve the Latino Cultural Center and the new Tom Thumb.

Wow that's great news, many thanks to whoever goes to these meetings.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I wonder how many millions of $ it will cost to move it that 100 yards.

[muncien]

I wonder how many millions of $ it will cost to move it that 100 yards.

Knowing DART, it'll cost a lot more than it should, lol.

That said, the previous plan to simply remove the station was always one of the many issues I had with the new D2 proposal. While this bloated mess gets even more bloated, at least access to the service won't be reduced as much as it would have been before. I still can't believe we are doing this... smh

[Cbdallas]

That would be great to move and keep that station. We don't need to loose any stations in the urban core of Dallas we need more. Somehow someway we need to get that Knox street station open as well.

[lakewoodhobo]

There's a chance, however unlikely, that moving the station would cost less than the current plan to remove it. Remember that the removal plan also includes realigning the tracks to the west side of Good-Latimer from where they are currently on the center of the road.

If moving the station requires the tracks to remain on the median of Good-Latimer then DART won't have to tear up and rebuild the road in that section.

Screen Shot 2019-08-02 at 11.37.58 AM.jpg

[jsoto3]

There's a chance, however unlikely, that moving the station would cost less than the current plan to remove it.

That's what I am thinking/hoping as well. Even if it does cost more, it will be better value per dollar spent to maintain service in this location than not. Long term, I believe that all of the blocks south/west of Cantegral Street (excluding the Latino Cultural Center and the adjacent historic church building) are going to be redeveloped densely with mid & high rise projects.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Spent five minutes sitting at the light at Gaston and Good-Latimer today because the asshole train driver hit the button to give him the green through the intersection, then just sat there at the station.

They do that all the time at the Baylor station blocking Hall or Malcolm X (and the fire engines and ambulances that use both), but rarely for this long.

[muncien]

So as not to divert the EPIC thread any further, I figued I'll just put this here. Both D1 and D2 are a mess because each tried to be all things to all people, which in turn led to bloated designs that fail the common sense test in the end, and would cost a fortune.
IMO, it seems both routes spend way too much money providing far too little service (D2 even more so). I understand that having multiple stops in close proximity creates transit density and so on, but that is not the function of an LRT system and it doesn't make sense to save a few steps for those almost immediately adjacent to an existing line, just to hang everyone else out to dry... at least, not at that price.
That is more the purpose of a streetcar system. And the irony is that we actually have a pretty solid street car plan in place, but no money to do it.
What we should consider is taking a MUCH cheaper D3 route that provides the reduncancy, expands service, and saves a TON of $$$, and then use any other funds on building out the streetcar system as planned. A simple D3 route at grade south on Pearle from the Good Latimer "Y", and then West on Canton St to link up just south of the Convention Center makes the most sense.
Three possible stations (East Transfer/park, Farmers Market, SMART District/City Hall) provide access to far more people and even future developement. Neither Pearle nor Canton are thru streets, so a conversion to integrate LRT at grade would be a piece of cake. The Orange Line and either Red or Blue lines would divert to this new route, thus freeing up each pass through the CBD to only service TWO lines at a time, and help speed things up.
So... D3 anybody?

D3B.jpg

[northsouth]

Would the Orange line run down through Union and Convention Center before heading north to Cityplace? The junction east of Pearl is already busy enough, without needing however many new switches and crossings to be added.

My feelings are that if a north-south line happens through downtown, it'd be better situated running under/along Akard and/or Ervay to Cadiz, south to the Texas Central station.

[muncien]

Would the Orange line run down through Union and Convention Center before heading north to Cityplace? The junction east of Pearl is already busy enough, without needing however many new switches and crossings to be added.

My feelings are that if a north-south line happens through downtown, it'd be better situated running under/along Akard and/or Ervay to Cadiz, south to the Texas Central station.

The density along Akard/Ervay would make the addition of a transit line at grade impossible and would require an underground (deep) route... aka super expensive. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea, as it would provide service to the core downtown population (daytime and residential), but I just don't think it's realistic. Plus, you would need to find anoter route from the portal so as not to reuse the existing mall to get there. Otherwise you don't accomplish the objective for D2 of redundancy. Ross or San Jacinto could possibly work, but again would have to be undergound.

Pearle to Canton on the other hand are greatly underused as they don't actually go anywhere (for cars) and nobody would miss them. As for the 'Y' switches just south of the portal, you could easily deviate a set of tracks immediately east when exiting the portal and run then directly under I345 until you get to the Carpenter Park area, then cut over to Pearl.

This would be a dirt cheap alternative, disrupt almost nobody, provide redundancy, and open up transit access to the largest developement potential remaining in the CBD.

[northsouth]

I wasn't suggesting that the north-south route be used as D2, just that it would be a good placement for such a line at some point. The fact that there's such a debate about the necessity of a second line through downtown implies that any additional lines are completely out of the question until/unless Dallas somehow develops a density that will probably take at least 50 years, if ever, to arise.

[lakewoodhobo]

New DART train through downtown likes parks and more Dallas news
http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city- ... sitdallas/

The Commerce Street Station proposed for Pegasus Park Plaza has a number of options, including a glass-encased subway entrance in the back of the park on Main Street next to the Magnolia Hotel; on AT&T's new campus; sidewalk entrances outside Main Street Alley near the Joule and Neiman Marcus; and two less favorable options by the Neiman Marcus parking garage.

Of course Pegasus Plaza isn't on Commerce, but yesterday Park Board member Jesse Moreno posted photos from a presentation of a proposed "head house" on Pegasus Plaza. It would have a glass enclosed portal to what I assume will be the escalators leading to the platform.

69687414_10107617116744077_6628580335388983296_n.jpg

70392917_10107617116858847_551308337191321600_n.jpg

[DPatel304]

Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) delivered its latest proposal for the second downtown rail alignment, dubbed D2. It’s a two-mile tunnel connecting Woodall Rogers Freeway to I-345 in Deep Ellum.

The proposed route would start by the Perot Museum and run along Griffin; turn and run east on Commerce; before turning north at Pearl to reach the East Transit Center. Five new stations include Museum Way, Metro Center, Commerce Street, CBD East, and a relocated Deep Ellum Station.

I was just about to post the same article. So it looks like, currently, they plan to keep the Deep Ellum station. I wonder if it's because of Uber coming to Dallas. Whatever the reason, I'm happy the station is staying.