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DART D2 Subway

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 09 Apr 2019 11:39

FTA, DART slates meetings on proposed D2 Subway

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... way--57292

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 11 Apr 2019 10:49

Can't wait to see what trips up the process this time. Last time it was NIMBYs in half a million dollar townhomes, and DART caved to them. There's no way the current plan gets through without another group finding some nit to pick and sending DART back to the drawing board for another 4 years...

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 11 Apr 2019 13:11

^ One can only hope. Crossing fingers!

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 11 Apr 2019 13:30

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ One can only hope. Crossing fingers!


HA! I was thinking the exact same thing! Unlike you, I DO prefer a viable D2 route. But, this ain't it. In the scramble to appease everyone, they benefit almost nobody. This is a mess... and a VERY EXPENSIVE one, at that.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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trueicon
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby trueicon » 16 Apr 2019 22:55

This is far better than the alternatives. I'm glad DART actually listened because their preferred alignment was even closer to duplicating the existing Pacific Ave corridor. At least the Commerce St. alignment brings portals in the hot spots of downtown (Main Street, Discovery District, Main Street Garden Park, etc.) which will bring much more activity to the streets. As great as this will be for downtown stakeholders/residents, DART's main reason for doing this, of course, is to increase capacity throughout the system.

The real mess is DART's plan to put the streetcar extension on top of Commerce St.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 17 Apr 2019 09:18

My problem is how they go back up near ground level in VP. I wanna see what this will look like...

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 17 Apr 2019 09:32

The new stations don't provide service to anybody who couldn't already easily access an existing station.
The above-grade/below-grade argument is a farce. Everybody's darling of an 'urban city', Portland, is covered in at-grade light rail and streetcars, and the city thrives because of it, not in spite of it. Being at grade allows stops at nearly every block, while going underground limits you to a few stations. Pacific Ave's problems are related to the cores problems as a whole (more residents please!) and have nothing to do with the DART line.
The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Matt777
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 17 Apr 2019 10:03

muncien wrote:The new stations don't provide service to anybody who couldn't already easily access an existing station.
The above-grade/below-grade argument is a farce. Everybody's darling of an 'urban city', Portland, is covered in at-grade light rail and streetcars, and the city thrives because of it, not in spite of it. Being at grade allows stops at nearly every block, while going underground limits you to a few stations. Pacific Ave's problems are related to the cores problems as a whole (more residents please!) and have nothing to do with the DART line.
The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.


I've said it before, but we should go back to being a streetcar city like Dallas used to be, use DART light rail as the "spines," and then streetcar lines radiating out from the dart rail stations.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 17 Apr 2019 10:29

I have a dumb question that maybe someone on here can help with...
Is it possible for the Brooville Liberty streetcars to run on the the DART light-rail tracks? I believe they use the same rail gauge, but I know nothing about other specs such as voltage, height limits, etc.
I only ask because it seems like an at grade D2 along Canton (connecting just south of convention center) to Pearle/Chavez (connecting by East Transfer Station) would support by DART light rail needs as well as allow a circular streetcar route around the CBD.
Of course, there aint much along Canton now, but that will change in the future... and, leaving it out in the cold from a transit perspective just seems dumb.
Of course, a streetcar route through EMC should come much sooner...
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 17 Apr 2019 10:48

muncien wrote:I have a dumb question that maybe someone on here can help with...
Is it possible for the Brooville Liberty streetcars to run on the the DART light-rail tracks? I believe they use the same rail gauge, but I know nothing about other specs such as voltage, height limits, etc.
I only ask because it seems like an at grade D2 along Canton (connecting just south of convention center) to Pearle/Chavez (connecting by East Transfer Station) would support by DART light rail needs as well as allow a circular streetcar route around the CBD.
Of course, there aint much along Canton now, but that will change in the future... and, leaving it out in the cold from a transit perspective just seems dumb.
Of course, a streetcar route through EMC should come much sooner...


The Brookville cars have a boarding sill height a couple inches lower than DART SLRVs, otherwise the same voltage, track gauge, etc. (The Dallas streetcar has a nonrevenue connecting track to get it to the DART yard for maintenance and it joins the DART red/blue line tracks under the Houston street bridge to get there, but I don't know if it travels there under battery power or uses the OCS)

DART Specs: http://www.kinkisharyo.com/main/wp-cont ... 8/DART.pdf
Brookville Specs:https://www.brookvillecorp.com/Files/Admin/PDFs/BROOKVILLE-Liberty-Modern-Streetcars-2015-WebRes.pdf

So the main challenge would be the platforms- for rail and streetcar to use the same stations and offer level boarding, there'd need to be the "humps" like they have at outlying stations (and are being removed as a part of the platform extensions, I believe)

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 18 Apr 2019 02:22

While the streetcars can run over DART's light rail tracks, why would you want to do so?Their floor heights are different, so all the platforms' heights will have to be changed again to allow level boarding. The streetcars have a much slower maximum speed, which could affect train scheduling, as the faster trains could get stuck behind the slower cars.
Realize they are built to different specifications for different purposes, and the rail corridors they run on are also different.

Having said that, I can see DART running streetcars on shared tracks for short distances with light rail trains, especially near downtown on the Bryan/Pacific street mall or something very similar. Platforms can be modified to make it worth. But before that can happen, light rail traffic on the shared route would have to be far less than what Bryan/Pacific has today.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 18 Apr 2019 13:48

electricron wrote:While the streetcars can run over DART's light rail tracks, why would you want to do so?Their floor heights are different, so all the platforms' heights will have to be changed again to allow level boarding. The streetcars have a much slower maximum speed, which could affect train scheduling, as the faster trains could get stuck behind the slower cars.
Realize they are built to different specifications for different purposes, and the rail corridors they run on are also different.

Having said that, I can see DART running streetcars on shared tracks for short distances with light rail trains, especially near downtown on the Bryan/Pacific street mall or something very similar. Platforms can be modified to make it worth. But before that can happen, light rail traffic on the shared route would have to be far less than what Bryan/Pacific has today.


Right... That is why I mentioned it along with my mythical 'Canton' D2 surface route. It would be like a CBD loop. The streetcars wouldn't venture beyond that, and it would only work once the loop were completed... hence the light rail traffic dispersion.
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trueicon
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby trueicon » 26 Apr 2019 19:56

muncien wrote:The only benefit of going underground was to make the vehicular traffic above, happy. Success on that part. But, the insane cost of doing so will limit numerous other transit projects in the future. D2 as it stands now, is a net-loss for transit users.

Well, DART is full steam ahead on the completely unnecessary Cotton Belt so I don't see any evidence that their other transit projects are limited in any way. The real point of D2 is to get more trains on the entire system. No matter how you do the math, that results in a huge net-benefit for transit users. Any benefit to those of us living downtown, however, is ancillary -- it's not DART's intention. Putting it underground helps with car traffic, as you point out, but it also improves quality of life in other ways. I can't tell you how many times a loud DART train horn wakes me up.

But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.

No thanks. Subway it is.

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 27 Apr 2019 01:39

trueicon wrote:But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.
No thanks. Subway it is.

Subway stations will attract more homeless than surface stations; they will be dryer when it rains, they will be warmer when it is cold, they will be cooler when it is hot, all by providing a roof over their heads. DART police will have to chase the homeless away every minute of every day - something they are not staffed for and are not prepared to do.

itsjrd1964
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby itsjrd1964 » 27 Apr 2019 08:51

With the conditions over the years--especially in recent years--of the elevators and escalators at Cityplace/Uptown and at Mockingbird, DART will obviously need to budget more than they realize toward maintenance and upkeep of elevators and escalators once the stations and infrastructure of the D2 route are in operation.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 01 May 2019 09:22

electricron wrote:
trueicon wrote:But possibly more importantly, there's the criminal/homeless element the above-ground stations downtown attract. Spend 30 seconds at West End Station and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd go as far as to say that's one of the primary reasons the West End died as a major destination in the 90s (it's slowly coming back but still has a long way to go). We've been down that path before -- additional above-ground stations downtown would lead to the same outcome.
No thanks. Subway it is.

Subway stations will attract more homeless than surface stations; they will be dryer when it rains, they will be warmer when it is cold, they will be cooler when it is hot, all by providing a roof over their heads. DART police will have to chase the homeless away every minute of every day - something they are not staffed for and are not prepared to do.

At one of the open houses, they mentioned DART wanting faregates for all of the subway stations at street level to cut down on loitering below ground level. Not sure how well that will work as one need only walk to a ground level station and connect to the Orange or Green line and soon find themselves in a subway station.

That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 02 May 2019 12:02

TNWE wrote:
electricron wrote:That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.


Honestly, I feel like St Paul Station has more homeless people than West End. West End is certainly full of vagrants and folks buying and selling drugs, but as far as people who are just killing time before heading back to the shelter, St Paul is the place to go.

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Cbdallas
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 02 May 2019 14:58

Has any large city in the US successfully dealt with the homeless I can't think of one and Dallas is way down on the list based on my obervation's and visits to those other cities. I think this just reflects that our metro is now the 4th largest in the country and there is no real solution out there to having a homeless population.

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trueicon
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby trueicon » 02 May 2019 19:57

TNWE wrote:At one of the open houses, they mentioned DART wanting faregates for all of the subway stations at street level to cut down on loitering below ground level. Not sure how well that will work as one need only walk to a ground level station and connect to the Orange or Green line and soon find themselves in a subway station.

That said, it's comical to suggest that the current at-grade alignment is the reason West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown, considering none of the other at-grade stations downtown attract the homeless element on that scale. The half a billion dollars DART could have saved by putting more of D2 at grade would pay for a lot of security- heck, they could convert the entire system to fare-controlled stations for less.


It absolutely is a reason (and you misquote me, by the way. I said in my original post that it was one of the reasons, not the reason) why West End is a focal point for the homeless downtown. The homeless population (and criminal activity) is virtually nonexistent in the West End past the immediate vicinity of West End Station. Trust me, I've walked past that station and around the West End hundreds of times. If you still don't believe me, you can see for yourself the massive difference it makes when that station is closed -- as you probably know, they aren't running trains through downtown on the weekend while they replace the tracks.

As you point out, the expectation is that subway stations will be fare controlled and enforced from the street level. I can confirm that expectation - I posted the PDF file of the 20% engineering plan on /r/downtowndallas and it includes gates requiring a valid ticket. Yes a homeless person (or criminal) could board the train at other stations and transfer to one of the proposed underground D2 stations, but that requires effort and planning that I don't expect even the finest of our vagrant population to do. I think you're giving them too much credit!

Currently the homeless (mainly) board DART trains from one of the downtown stations above-ground as downtown Dallas is the homeless resource hub for the region (but that is a topic for another time). Access to the trains on the D2 line will be restricted throughout downtown if DART indeed builds the gates. That, if true, would deter a majority of them from loitering in one of the D2 stations because (1) they wouldn't have a convenient above-ground station to enter that line (i.e., the homeless won't park a car at the Parker Rd. DART station to ride down to a subway station along D2), and (2) even if they get off at one of the proposed underground D2 stations, requiring someone to hold a valid train ticket to be in the controlled access area would be a powerful tool for DART officers to prevent any underground D2 station from becoming like the West End.

I stand by my opinion and nobody (especially those who don't actually live downtown) is going to convince me otherwise when I see this daily with my own eyes. By the way, sadly it is NOT just the West End station that is a problem (as has been pointed out in this thread). Spend any time at one of the other above-ground downtown stations during non-commute hours and you'll still see K2 sales, defection, etc. Sadly that's the reality of above-ground stations downtown -- it doesn't work out like it does in Railroad Tycoon.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby art_suckz » 03 May 2019 10:10

My coworker once saw a homeless person masturbating while watching a trashcan fire on the platform at Union Station.
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

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The_Overdog
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 03 May 2019 13:36

Fire is pretty exciting. It's like the caveman response :)

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 03 May 2019 13:37

:shock: :?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Haretip » 25 Jun 2019 13:07

Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.
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quixomniac
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby quixomniac » 26 Jun 2019 19:31

Haretip wrote:Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.


There's still hope yet for deep ellum!

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Jul 2019 12:14

The EPIC probably makes some decision makers change their tune about the Deep Ellum station. Particularly if Uber is considering a move there and would like decent transit access for some of its employees.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 02 Jul 2019 14:40

Haretip wrote:Is the D2 alignment still proceeding?

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... xVO1UZAmKU

This also mentions extension of the streetcar to Knox Henderson.


Anyone else remember the 2015 D2 alignment? You know, the one that could have been built by now if Dallas' elected and appointed leaders weren't trying to "tweak" things according to the whims and desires of a guy whose main business is printing reading material for highland park plastic surgeon's offices...

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Jul 2019 15:41

All I remember about the original route is when the Mayor decreed it needed to go by the City Owned Hotel and everyone pointed out how that was a no go but he insisted.

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 10 Jul 2019 19:55

cowboyeagle05 wrote:All I remember about the original route is when the Mayor decreed it needed to go by the City Owned Hotel and everyone pointed out how that was a no go but he insisted.

Thankfully, DART is controlled by its own board of directors and not by the mayor of Dallas.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Jul 2019 09:49

Yet last I checked DART kept the option on the board and the city council was able to divert plans with enough screaming and shouting. Overall I was happy that the Council was able to convince DART to change the D2 route because the DART board is not a "body of government" that makes very good decisions. They are pulled in too many directions and focused on new construction more than making their existing systems work better.


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