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What is a suburb today?

Tnexster
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What is a suburb today?

Postby Tnexster » 09 Dec 2016 12:45

Frisco Chamber president: 'Dallas is our suburb'

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... elker.html

Do you view Frisco as a suburb of Dallas or as its own city?

Jokingly, whenever I’m at a convention out of town or visiting folks in other states, I say “I’m from Frisco, Texas.” If I get that look, I say “If you don’t know where Frisco is, Dallas is our suburb 20 miles south.”

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texasstar
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby texasstar » 09 Dec 2016 14:05

He's a funny guy.

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Austin55
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby Austin55 » 08 Jan 2017 19:47

I'll bet he think's he's a real great comedian.

To answer the question - I'd consider any city which has an established urban core to be excluded from the suburb definition. I'm sure others opinions will vary on this. To me, Dallas, Fort Worth and Denton are the only places I've spent much time that don't [*]feel like suburbs. Certainly bits and pieces of other cities around feel like proper cities, but just lack that defining characteristic somewhere in there.

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tanzoak
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby tanzoak » 09 Jan 2017 01:23

It's interesting to see where those 121/DNT area workers live: mostly in the immediate area of Frisco and Plano, as well as other places north of the office space in McKinney and Little Elm.
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Compare that to those working in Greater Downtown, where there's a clear drop-off at Northwest Highway and then again more notably at Bush Turnpike.
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I bet all this Frisco development just further divides the labor market. Increased traffic will make it even less appealing to drive north on the DNT, and more development north of Legacy West will be even further away from the jobs hubs down south.

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tanzoak
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby tanzoak » 09 Jan 2017 01:35

I should note that the colors on those maps are only relative to each other within each map.. they can't be compared across maps due to difference in scales.

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Austin55
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby Austin55 » 09 Jan 2017 18:53

Beautiful maps and interesting information.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby joshua.dodd » 10 Jan 2017 14:03

I have a theory that the suburbs will be the future slums. Dallas' northern suburbs would be an exception due to the fact that so many corporate headquarter relocations are moving out there. Nonetheless, the suburbs will be the future slums because the city is where the money and young professionals are going to.

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tanzoak
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby tanzoak » 10 Jan 2017 15:03

joshua.dodd wrote:I have a theory that the suburbs will be the future slums. Dallas' northern suburbs would be an exception due to the fact that so many corporate headquarter relocations are moving out there. Nonetheless, the suburbs will be the future slums because the city is where the money and young professionals are going to.


"The Suburbanization of Poverty" is the official academic name for this phenomenon. Basically, core areas are doing well as they get rehabbed and people discover the good things about close-in city living, and exurbs are still doing well because everything can be shiny and new. In the inner-ring suburbs, though, the houses are getting old (and not in the good way), and the deferred maintanence bills are coming due. And without the city amenities to draw people or tax base to pay for repairs, they're going into a downward spiral.

While it's more strongly focused in high-cost coastal metros (where the poor are being priced out) and decaying rust-belt metros (where reductions in economic vitality are starker), it's still occuring in places like Dallas. Check out the difference in percentage of families below the poverty line between 2000 and 2011-2015:
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Inside city limits, it didn't change too much (if anything, that North Dallas low-poverty bubble got a little bigger). The major difference is in those inner-ring suburbs: Garland, Richardson, Farmer's Branch, Irving. Even Plano and Carrolton weren't immune.

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The_Overdog
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby The_Overdog » 10 Jan 2017 16:04

"The Suburbanization of Poverty" is the official academic name for this phenomenon. Basically, core areas are doing well as they get rehabbed and people discover the good things about close-in city living, and exurbs are still doing well because everything can be shiny and new. In the inner-ring suburbs, though, the houses are getting old (and not in the good way), and the deferred maintenance bills are coming due.


My opinion is that this is too 'point in time' and that those cheap places in suburbs will be the next generation's incubators. Houses getting old is something that happens everywhere - it's 'direness' is overstated in suburbs, and 'quality' of housing will not save a place (look at the palaces in Detroit that were abandoned) but only jobs and access. I don't think exurbs will ever be true slums subservient to the main cities - the costs of transportation are just too high - they will be abandoned like the old rest stop towns on I40 or they will become cities of their own right.

Tnexster
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby Tnexster » 10 Jan 2017 16:30

I can't draw a conclusion from two pictures, it would be better to see that map put in motion over at least 10-15 years and view the impact of the recession, immigration and so on. I know poverty in DFW is spreading out into areas that previously had not seen it as more lower-income residents move into single family houses and apartments as housing becomes less affordable. But the region as a whole has expanded so much in this time frame with too many moving parts to draw an adequate conclusion from just those two illustrations.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby joshua.dodd » 10 Jan 2017 18:03

There is something extremely alarming about those two pictures. It really shows the gross surge in poverty over the past 15 years and puts into perspective the collapse in the American Middle Class.

Another reason why I see the suburbs as the future slums is because of the cheaply built housing developments. Most of these houses built by such companies as KB Homes are of poor quality, at best, and over inflated prices. Over time as the homes' poor qualities begin to show with foundation troubles and other issues, the prices for these homes are going to plunge. This is why I would never buy a new suburban home in one of these quickly built subdivisions. Over time you will lose money and the value of the homes are going to depreciate until they become slums.

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The_Overdog
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby The_Overdog » 11 Jan 2017 10:12

I know poverty in DFW is spreading out into areas that previously had not seen it as more lower-income residents move into single family houses and apartments as housing becomes less affordable.


I think you have this backwards- poverty spread to mostly single family areas where it didn't exist before because the houses were cheap. Houses getting more expensive will concentrate poverty. So the sprawl of DFW has also sprawled poverty, whether you consider that good or bad. DFW built such small amounts of multi-family the past 30 years (less than 10% of total area housing per year most years - the past few where it's close to 50% are serious anomalies historically) I don't think you can pin this on high rents or apartments.

Yeah about the collapse of the middle class.

Tnexster
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby Tnexster » 11 Jan 2017 11:08

joshua.dodd wrote:There is something extremely alarming about those two pictures. It really shows the gross surge in poverty over the past 15 years and puts into perspective the collapse in the American Middle Class.

Another reason why I see the suburbs as the future slums is because of the cheaply built housing developments. Most of these houses built by such companies as KB Homes are of poor quality, at best, and over inflated prices. Over time as the homes' poor qualities begin to show with foundation troubles and other issues, the prices for these homes are going to plunge. This is why I would never buy a new suburban home in one of these quickly built subdivisions. Over time you will lose money and the value of the homes are going to depreciate until they become slums.


Suburbs have nothing on Dallas. The city is over the top on poverty with almost 300,000 people living below the line, more than the entire population of Plano and is the absolute worst among big cities with Children. We can point all day to the suburbs and talk about how horrible they are going to be but if you want to see that today just look at the city of Dallas, it is already here.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comme ... allas-poor

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tamtagon
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby tamtagon » 11 Jan 2017 12:25

I wonder if in 20 years, we'll learn the Downtown/Uptown TIF programs have been more than tertiary contributors to the huge swaths of Dallas left untended in poverty.

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art_suckz
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby art_suckz » 12 Jan 2017 10:41

I'd like to see this done with DFW.

They call it "The suburban Ponzi scheme."

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017 ... s-no-money

THE REAL REASON YOUR CITY HAS NO MONEY


Joe, Josh and I interviewed all the city's department heads and key staff. We gathered as much data as we could (they had a lot). We analyzed and then mapped out all of the city's revenue streams by parcel. We then did the same for all of the city's expenses. This was the most comprehensive geographic analysis of a city's finances that I've ever seen completed. When we finished, we had a three dimensional map showing what parts of the city generated more revenue than expense (in business terms, this would be called profit) and what parts of the city generated more expense than revenue (again, in business terms, this is considered a loss).

Here's that map. In accounting terms, green equals profit and red equals loss. The higher the block goes, the larger the amount of profit/loss. If you have a sense of the basic layout of North American cities post World War II, you can figure out pretty easily what is going on here.


tumblr_inline_ojn60vJrGb1r97ndl_540.png


There are two questions I'm commonly asked when I tell this story. The first is: how did this happen? The second: what do we do now?

The way this happened is pretty simple. At Strong Towns, we call it the Growth Ponzi Scheme. Through a combination of federal incentives, state programs and private capital, cities were able to rapidly grow by expanding horizontally. This provided the local government with the immediate revenues that come from new growth -- permit fees, utility fees, property tax increases, sales tax -- and, in exchange, the city takes on the long term responsibility of servicing and maintaining all the new infrastructure. The money comes in handy in the present while the future obligation is, well....a long time in the future.
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To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: What is a suburb today?

Postby joshua.dodd » 13 Jan 2017 15:41

Wow, that is really bad


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