Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

New condo construction

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dd_dweller
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New condo construction

Postby dd_dweller » 27 Dec 2016 16:34

With so many people moving to the urban core, why haven't we seen more affordable condos get built? I understand the land cost, but there's still many sites within downtown's core that could get permanent residents. The cedars would be a good area to build or even parts of deep ellum/baylor. We're still a hot market for house sales.

Please move this topic if it needs to moderators.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: New condo construction

Postby joshua.dodd » 28 Dec 2016 04:09

You've already answered your question. The reason is because of how high demand is.

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DBadger
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Re: New condo construction

Postby DBadger » 28 Dec 2016 10:23

I think the time it takes to sell units in a condo building is a deterrent. It happened prior with House by Starck in Victory and currently with Museum Tower. It is easier for builders to get their investment back with high occupancy, high price rentals, sell the property to a management company and free capital for another project.
That may turn around later for those same buildings. That's what happened with Starck and also the Shelby (SMU Blvd ?)
When people are more committed long term to the urban center and to a specific location, the condos will come. Maybe still a little early right now.

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tamtagon
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Re: New condo construction

Postby tamtagon » 28 Dec 2016 11:17

My perception has been for years that condo inventory in central Dallas, you know the "urban" part, is low compared to pier cities and areas in Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles... all of the Sunbelt. Somewhere I'm sure are reliable data showing what's-what as far as intown dwelling ownership. Overall, central Dallas may be average compared to similar geographic area with similar population density.

One think that's basically true and has been a decades long barrier to interest in dwelling purchase in central Dallas is the lack and/or absence of a sustained big city scene, with a much greater variety and abundance of experiences.

Mid Century downtown Dallas was the place to be. That vanished as the benefits of trendy suburban lifestyle was made available to the bulk of the population; city decisions to make downtown more suburban, double-duty financial collapse and some of the most successful suburban planning north of town turned a touted sophisticated urban experience into a void.

The West End was a thing and it was totally popular with mainstream crowds and Stark Club was there to sorta complete the experience and it faded away just a totally.

Deep Ellum became even more popular and the table of contents was significantly more varied and abundant. And it faded into virtual oblivion.

Lower Greenville maintained at least a base of experiences since the 80s, and has worked efficiently as a thoughtful counterbalance to nearby destinations; crowds with violent tendencies almost knocked out Greenville, but the super-neighborhood destination seems to be locked in for the long haul.

Only Cedar Springs as a gay destination has had a more steady run; being the only gay place in The Metroplex for decades has as much to do with the staying power than anything.

So, even if the perception of below average dwelling ownership in Central Dallas is only somewhat accurate, there is likely to be a lingering resistance about long term residency in the place among folks over 40. What's encouraging is at least 15 years of positive development.

As the city continues to stabilize, we should see more condo development.

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vman
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Re: New condo construction

Postby vman » 28 Dec 2016 11:42

Well our highrise/midrise condo development may be lagging, but Dallas' embrace of the urban townhome should be acknowledged. Townhomes have totally transformed some of Dallas' neighborhoods and they seem to be selling as quickly as they're built. I was in east Dallas a few weeks ago, around the Fitzhugh area, and the amount of townhome construction there is simply amazing. Could it be people in Dallas favor townhomes more than condos? I know I do.

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tamtagon
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Re: New condo construction

Postby tamtagon » 28 Dec 2016 12:01

^As I've considered the fate of city living in Dallas over the years, East Dallas has always served as the barometer; the success of Uptown, renaissance of Downtown, possibilities of Fair Park and South Dallas, Farmers Market, Old East Dallas (Deep Ellum), The Cedars and even Cedar Springs all grounded and relative to what comes of East Dallas.

As the first suburb of Dallas, East Dallas once again becomes the relevant foundation for urban Dallas. Going forward what happens to East Dallas is a fulcrum to the rest of town. Above average dwelling ownership in East Dallas whether apartment, townhouse, highrise or single family home will increase ownership everywhere.

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muncien
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Re: New condo construction

Postby muncien » 28 Dec 2016 12:13

vman wrote:Well our highrise/midrise condo development may be lagging, but Dallas' embrace of the urban townhome should be acknowledged. Townhomes have totally transformed some of Dallas' neighborhoods and they seem to be selling as quickly as they're built. I was in east Dallas a few weeks ago, around the Fitzhugh area, and the amount of townhome construction there is simply amazing. Could it be people in Dallas favor townhomes more than condos? I know I do.


Totally... Townhomes are superior to condos in many regards. You typically get more sqft for the price, more privacy, a stronger sense of personal ownership (which is big here in Texas), and significantly lower HOA dues. What you don't get are amenities and views which typically come with condos. But, I think most people, not only here... but in general, will accept that trade off.

I think the bigger reason why they are such a hit here is the fact that we have considerable building space in our near suburbs while many other large cities are built out a bit more and don't have room for that lower density. They have no choice but to build upwards, while we can fill in our smaller lots with tons of tri-levels. Another perk... whether perceived or actual, townhomes seem to create a stronger sense of 'place' and greater stability thin condo towers. That may per a personal perspective, but it certainly seems that way to me anyway.

I actually expect an even greater acceleration of town home construction in the near future. So much of our building boom has come at the hands of big players who don't meddle so much in this field. It seems only in the last few years we have some developers (ex: InTown) and smaller players, who have found a niche here and will likely expand on it. Some of the nearby single family lots will likely convert over in the next few years (looking at you Oak Lawn). There's certainly money to be made in that regard.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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willyk
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Re: New condo construction

Postby willyk » 29 Dec 2016 03:05

muncien wrote:I actually expect an even greater acceleration of town home construction in the near future. So much of our building boom has come at the hands of big players who don't meddle so much in this field. It seems only in the last few years we have some developers (ex: InTown) and smaller players, who have found a niche here and will likely expand on it. Some of the nearby single family lots will likely convert over in the next few years (looking at you Oak Lawn). There's certainly money to be made in that regard.


Agree...We should not overlook the success of InTown at the Farmers Market. Town homes may be what Dallas buyers want.

Land prices have certainly increased since they started this project, and the Forum has noted that The Bridge is a problem, but I wish they would do another phase nearby. We have plenty of underutilized land here and in the East End that could support this.

Does anyone know how the economics of more town homes in the $500-750K range would compare to new apartment buildings like the ones completing at the Farmers Market? Are they economically viable here?

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tamtagon
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Re: New condo construction

Postby tamtagon » 29 Dec 2016 04:58

willyk wrote:Land prices have certainly increased since they started this project, and the Forum has noted that The Bridge is a problem


The Bridge is a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

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DBadger
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Re: New condo construction

Postby DBadger » 29 Dec 2016 11:12

willyk wrote:
muncien wrote:I actually expect an even greater acceleration of town home construction in the near future. So much of our building boom has come at the hands of big players who don't meddle so much in this field. It seems only in the last few years we have some developers (ex: InTown) and smaller players, who have found a niche here and will likely expand on it. Some of the nearby single family lots will likely convert over in the next few years (looking at you Oak Lawn). There's certainly money to be made in that regard.


Agree...We should not overlook the success of InTown at the Farmers Market. Town homes may be what Dallas buyers want.

Land prices have certainly increased since they started this project, and the Forum has noted that The Bridge is a problem, but I wish they would do another phase nearby. We have plenty of underutilized land here and in the East End that could support this.

Does anyone know how the economics of more town homes in the $500-750K range would compare to new apartment buildings like the ones completing at the Farmers Market? Are they economically viable here?


There are still more town homes coming specially in the Cedars neighborhood. David Weekley is building quite a few by the Cedars station and I heard In-town purchased a big area in the Cedars as well.
Also further out; east Dallas, Oak Lawn, Lower Greenville and Lake Highlands town center all have town homes either currently being built or coming.
They are selling a lot faster than condos.


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