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Oak Lawn

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R1070
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby R1070 » 13 Nov 2017 20:46

Yes.

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kingpin
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby kingpin » 27 Nov 2017 17:34

A couple updates

Parkland Knight Office building


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Old Parkland Campus Expansion
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lakewoodhobo
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby lakewoodhobo » 03 Jan 2018 09:40

I was browsing the UTA/SquireHaskins historical photos collection and came across these ones of the Melrose from when it had a pool. Date unknown, but caption says "Outdoor meal event around the pool, Melrose Hotel, 3015 Oak Lawn Ave Dallas, Texas."

Any idea when the pool was demolished and where exactly it was located? Looks like maybe right in front where the porte-cochere is now.

d321b399c430d6a1c7476c1d14e3773a.jpg
Outdoor meal event around the pool Melrose Hotel 3015 Oak Lawn Ave Dallas.jpg
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tamtagon
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby tamtagon » 03 Jan 2018 10:09

On one hand, it's so frustrating that this hotel continues to idle even after taking half the block for expansion. Then on the other hand, the neighborhood could evolve a little more before The Melrose reestablished itself as a major landmark.... kinda seems like the hotel owners are resisting the obvious marketplace, the Gayborhood; is there even anywhere in Texas a big gay spa-resort hotel? Imagine a lush pool where Bronx used to be, with adjoining ballroom, it would be packed in non-stop. An adjoining residential tower would stay fully occupied.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 03 Jan 2018 11:13

There is no Cedar Springs Rd. redo planned. The neighborhood meetings killed that project in the crib.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby lakewoodhobo » 03 Jan 2018 11:15

tamtagon wrote:On one hand, it's so frustrating that this hotel continues to idle even after taking half the block for expansion. Then on the other hand, the neighborhood could evolve a little more before The Melrose reestablished itself as a major landmark.... kinda seems like the hotel owners are resisting the obvious marketplace, the Gayborhood; is there even anywhere in Texas a big gay spa-resort hotel? Imagine a lush pool where Bronx used to be, with adjoining ballroom, it would be packed in non-stop. An adjoining residential tower would stay fully occupied.


On the topic of our beloved gayborhood, the same collection contains a good reminder of how it's evolved. I did not realize that the JR's building was once a "Pay-Less Furniture" store.

a0f66a478119df2c85207f14cc0c613b.jpg
3921 Cedar Springs.jpg


Which proves that Cedar Springs will continue to evolve. We've discussed this to death, but Caven is killing the Strip and I really wouldn't hate it if a new gayborhood evolved in Oak Cliff.
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Cbdallas
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Cbdallas » 03 Jan 2018 13:11

I will second that.

Tnexster
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Tnexster » 03 Jan 2018 19:19

Are there any signs that could happen?

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby lakewoodhobo » 03 Jan 2018 20:28

Tnexster wrote:Are there any signs that could happen?


There are rumors of one major bar packing up and moving there, but of course it would take so much more than that. I think it would take a developer to purchase several lots in a place like Center Street, which is primed for redevelopment, and deliberately market it for that purpose. It's never been done in a "new" area, to my knowledge, so who knows if it would work.

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R1070
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby R1070 » 03 Jan 2018 21:42

How is Caven killing the strip? What is happening?

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 03 Jan 2018 23:08

R1070 wrote:How is Caven killing the strip? What is happening?

If I recall correctly, they're against improving cedars springs Rd walk-ability. Essentially, club owners are against it because it would deter business. So they say....

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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Jan 2018 08:55

Its not just Caven, all business owners on the strip are against a Cedar Springs Rd redo. They have gone on record to the city and any redo would have to not impede traffic. They all cite what happened when the Cedar Springs Tollway bridge was closed for a big ole redo. When that pass-thru traffic stopped several businesses supposedly closed due to lack of customers. Most of the business owners not just Caven don't want to lose their business just for some plants and creative paving. Take into consideration how long the gaybourhood has existed in this area. Decades long and gaybourhoods don't tend to get built by a developer. Gaybourhoods happen over years of a community gathering in a similar area. Dallas is one of unique places you can actually point to a spot on the map and it be firmly a LGBT community center. If you close a bunch of gay businesses during construction will they come back? Fear of losing the gaybourhood to hipster development is a serious concern from everyone. They also point to Lower Greenville where the city did a bunch of things trying to maintain access and still businesses closed. Sure its easy now to say things are better though but tell that to the many small businesses owners who exist on Cedar Springs today that feed off the liveliness of the gaybourhood. Caven is safe they have deeper pockets and 100% own their land/buildings. They could flip property to a apartment developer overnight but the smaller businesses are more dependent on other factors.

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tamtagon
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby tamtagon » 04 Jan 2018 10:44

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Its not just Caven, all business owners on the strip are against a Cedar Springs Rd redo. They have gone on record to the city and any redo would have to not impede traffic. They all cite what happened when the Cedar Springs Tollway bridge was closed for a big ole redo. When that pass-thru traffic stopped several businesses supposedly closed due to lack of customers. Most of the business owners not just Caven don't want to lose their business just for some plants and creative paving. Take into consideration how long the gaybourhood has existed in this area. Decades long and gaybourhoods don't tend to get built by a developer. Gaybourhoods happen over years of a community gathering in a similar area. Dallas is one of unique places you can actually point to a spot on the map and it be firmly a LGBT community center. If you close a bunch of gay businesses during construction will they come back? Fear of losing the gaybourhood to hipster development is a serious concern from everyone. They also point to Lower Greenville where the city did a bunch of things trying to maintain access and still businesses closed. Sure its easy now to say things are better though but tell that to the many small businesses owners who exist on Cedar Springs today that feed off the liveliness of the gaybourhood. Caven is safe they have deeper pockets and 100% own their land/buildings. They could flip property to a apartment developer overnight but the smaller businesses are more dependent on other factors.


Well, I'm like kinda yes, kinda no.... I think it's there's some worthwhile parallels between the evolutions of Caven Inc & The Crossroads and American Airlines & DFW Airport. Too firm a grip from the Bible Belt being the primary catalyst ironically provided the platform for the Gayborhood in Oak Lawn, and just as certainly influential, the Dallas Arts Community was clearing out the sketchy edge of the historic CBD for the Arts District, the success Caven enjoyed turned into safe homebase for gays but today, that operation and the neighborhood would benefit from a refreshed business plan.

The liveliness of the neighborhood could be so much deeper and varied but the dominance of one legacy empire has grown into a restriction. The evolution of the neighborhood that's needed is on the way, though, and really, the reaction Caven will be critical. The Gayborhood simply need more residents. Maple Avenue is turning into Corporation Nation and that is a potentially sterilizing impact. I could go on and on, but just don't have the time.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby lakewoodhobo » 04 Jan 2018 12:51

I also feel like the Resource Center picked a terrible location for their new building. It is not well designed and it's not a good gathering space - I know because I went there the night of the Pulse shooting. Moving the LGBT community center away from the heart of the gayborhood was just as damaging as the businesses on Cedar Springs killing the complete street redesign.

The LGBT community may no longer need gay bookstores and coffee shops, but it does need a space for spontaneous gathering/protest/celebration. The Legacy of Love and Resource Center don't provide that successfully.

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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Jan 2018 14:13

I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

The problem is city staff isn't supposed to push these things too much they are instructed to do what the neighborhood wants/elected official wants even if the city planner on staff knows the communities fear is founded in distrust and incorrect understanding of traffic and commerce. The last time the city had a meeting about a street redo of Cedar Springs the only people that could show up was the business owners during the middle of the day and they were a fiery bunch.

Also the mayor has that LGBT Task Force that meets to decide things for us and the city staff takes cues from them on what projects to pursue. Last I heard the Task Force group was against much of what was proposed. They have requested new crosswalks but that seems to be a hard issue for city hall to change its habits/policy on.

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R1070
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby R1070 » 04 Jan 2018 21:11

The sidewalks were improved on the Hunkys/Roundup Block and not really any neighborhood interruptions. I'm sure they could find a way to do this in a smart manner.

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vman
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby vman » 05 Jan 2018 06:16

cowboyeagle05 wrote:I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

What is the future for the "strip"? When I come to Dallas on many a weekend afternoon, I'll occasionally grab a burger at Hunky's. This is usually after I've been to Bishop Arts, Uptown, Knox-Henderson or Deep Ellum. And compared to Dallas' hotspots, Cedar Springs is always the least vibrant, even on a perfect spring day. Are the business owners fine with this? Plus, the new apartment developments down the street have done little to bring life to the strip, so new development hasn't necessarily been a big help. And from what I've heard from friends, it's not the night time destination that it used to be. I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Cbdallas » 05 Jan 2018 09:13

Change will come when the owners pocketbook takes a hit and I think that is already happening at certain places. The entire section from Oak Lawn to the Tollway should be midrise density with retail front at street level. As more residents continue to move in and consume parking that don't go to the bars it will force owners to change thier offerings.

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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 05 Jan 2018 09:43

vman wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

What is the future for the "strip"? When I come to Dallas on many a weekend afternoon, I'll occasionally grab a burger at Hunky's. This is usually after I've been to Bishop Arts, Uptown, Knox-Henderson or Deep Ellum. And compared to Dallas' hotspots, Cedar Springs is always the least vibrant, even on a perfect spring day. Are the business owners fine with this? Plus, the new apartment developments down the street have done little to bring life to the strip, so new development hasn't necessarily been a big help. And from what I've heard from friends, it's not the night time destination that it used to be. I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.



Your assumptions are accurate and it already has hit all their pocketbooks but Caven competes by raising well drink prices by 25 cents every 6 months. The rest of them just complain but don't yield, plus the city only proposed the redo once so many owners aren't looking at it as a lever to pull. I will say there are more straight people than ever in the gay bars, specifically women and its only increased the number of gay men avoiding the bars. Nothing will change until more businesses close though by lack of interest. Then the Tavern Guild will be weakened and arguments about the future will be front and center with non millennial voices still pointing to the past for solutions. I am still waiting for a different voice to shine some light on things us gay customers have know for the last 10 years.

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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Jan 2018 11:29

vman wrote:I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.


Yeah, this sums up the state of Oak Lawn lately. Back in 2010 when Uptown was booming, I was so sure that Oak Lawn Ave. and Cedar Springs Rd would be next in line to see a huge transformation. Uptown looked like it would get too expensive and land would be limited, so, naturally, it made sense for development to spill over to Oak Lawn, but that still has yet to happen. There are a lot of small mid-rise projects occurring but nothing earth shattering, which is a huge disappointment.

Instead, since 2010, basically all other parts of the urban core have boomed except for Oak Lawn. Looking back, I guess I can see why because other areas were cheaper and a lot of them didn't have single family homes that would impede development. With that in mind, it's still disappointing to see how much the city has changed in the last decade and then look at Oak Lawn Ave, Cedar Springs Rd and even Lemmon Ave haven't changed all that much.

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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby lakewoodhobo » 05 Jan 2018 12:15

I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Screen Shot 2018-01-05 at 11.38.00 AM.png


Good opportunity to co-develop it with the owner of the BofA property and provide structured parking, residential and an urban bank branch.
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TreeFrog
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby TreeFrog » 05 Jan 2018 15:10

lakewoodhobo wrote:I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.


Oh no, the back lot of the Melrose (old Bronx location) takes that prize in spades. At least the parking lot is serving a need and it also does not front Cedar Springs.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Cbdallas » 05 Jan 2018 16:34

The Melrose has a planned development for that lot if the old owner of empty and ragged and probably out of code compliance cafe brazil space would sell. As far as I know Caven has nothing planned for their lot.

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R1070
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby R1070 » 05 Jan 2018 23:29

That Caven lot and Bank of America should be combined into a mixed use development to wrap around that existing retail.

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uptown74
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby uptown74 » 15 Jan 2018 15:25

Was just at the Tom Thumb in Turtle Creek Village and it looks like they lost all 3 retail tenants between Malibu Poke and World Market (Correct me if i'm wrong about this). But the signage was down for Mill No 3, Tinsley Radix and the salon that was there. Wow.

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flyswatter
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby flyswatter » 15 Jan 2018 16:08

Parking there is atrocious during peak shopping, especially now that Tom Thumb is there. They should have built a garage instead of that tiny surface lot, and the garage across the way that's attached to the office buildings are not convenient and I do not even think shoppers are allowed to park there.

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R1070
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby R1070 » 15 Jan 2018 19:16

The shopping center should have been torn down and rebuilt as mixed use with parking garages, residential, retail, etc in a walkable village.

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tamtagon
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby tamtagon » 15 Jan 2018 19:42

lakewoodhobo wrote:I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Screen Shot 2018-01-05 at 11.38.00 AM.png

Good opportunity to co-develop it with the owner of the BofA property and provide structured parking, residential and an urban bank branch.


There's gotta be a better location for that elementary school.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby Cbdallas » 16 Jan 2018 10:25

I don't think parking closed down those clothing stores. I have noticed most of the retail that is closing are clothes related. I think the young kiddos are real comfortable ordering on line from sites and apps. This segment of retail will mostly shrink and vanish over time except for the high end stores.

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tamtagon
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Re: Oak Lawn

Postby tamtagon » 16 Jan 2018 11:08

Ideal retail center for local clothing designers.


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