Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

So Amazon just posted a position for an economic development manager in DC. With Bezos home in DC, the desire for an East Coast office and this job opening. It's a wrap. This whole thing seems like a farce.

https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc/ne ... gnal-91253

They quickly removed the job posting. But it was there earlier.

[DPatel304]

Just the other day I was thinking how long it's been since we have heard anything about HQ2. Seems like all signs point to DC, which isn't a huge surprise.

A part of me thinks this is all intentional and this is just what Amazon wants everyone to believe. Either way, I just want this thing to be officially announced so we can all move on. I keep thinking that maybe certain projects in Dallas (and other cities) have been patiently waiting on the sidelines to see what Amazon does, which could, potentially, be slightly slowing things down for us.

[dallaz]

^^^To be honest, I kinda felt that anyway. Dallas-Ft. Worth is already growing at a good pace, it’s not like we really need it or as if we’re missing out on anything.

[Tnexster]

I am ok with them going to DC, we do really well scoring relocations and a larger more diverse collection of smaller companies is better than the 800 pound gorilla that demands attention and respect.

[mcrdal15]

Dallas isn't serious enough about urban planning or public transportation, so Amazon should highly consider another city if that's important to them. Sometimes it takes something like Boeing to get this city moving in the right direction.

[dallaz]

Dallas isn't serious enough about urban planning or public transportation, so Amazon should highly consider another city if that's important to them. Sometimes it takes something like Boeing to get this city moving in the right direction.

That’s so true and if it takes Dallas getting snubbed (yet again) to get this city’s act together, I’m all for it.

[Jbarn]

I am not sure why we even pretend like we have a chance at this. Amazon absolutely will not move to a place that is located in a state that probably will have a bathroom bill passed during the next legislative session.

[cowboyeagle05]

I still haven't read anything that makes DC the choice except DC newspapers which are doing exactly what North Texas newspapers are doing cheerleading. Amazon is in DC for sure and I don't doubt they will have an office there, that Bezos would own a home where he trying to sway political position to his side and since he personally owns the Washington Post. That doesn't mean the second HQ is only likely to be there. I am just saying I have not read a thing that suggests DC has a chance over DFW or any other of the 20 cities. We have of course talked about this stuff at length but what DC has Dallas has in other areas. I'll wait for the official announcement.

[Tnexster]

I am not sure why we even pretend like we have a chance at this. Amazon absolutely will not move to a place that is located in a state that probably will have a bathroom bill passed during the next legislative session.

I recently attended a presentation by a state house rep that talked about this issue. He was a republican and was opposed to the bathroom bill and talked about the damage done just by proposing that legislation. He said Texas got the nod for a couple of potential Amazon finalist cities (Austin and Dallas) but the fact that the state floated that bathroom bill had effectively squelched any possibility that Amazon would select Texas. So they are acknowledging that we have potential but we are out.

[tamtagon]

^That's too bad. Evangelicals continue to Mess With Texas, in the name of what they have been (mis)lead to believe about their sects.

[Jbarn]

I am not sure why we even pretend like we have a chance at this. Amazon absolutely will not move to a place that is located in a state that probably will have a bathroom bill passed during the next legislative session.

I recently attended a presentation by a state house rep that talked about this issue. He was a republican and was opposed to the bathroom bill and talked about the damage done just by proposing that legislation. He said Texas got the nod for a couple of potential Amazon finalist cities (Austin and Dallas) but the fact that the state floated that bathroom bill had effectively squelched any possibility that Amazon would select Texas. So they are acknowledging that we have potential but we are out.

Even though this Republican state house rep opposed the bathroom bill, I think it is almost a certainty that dan patrick is chomping at the bit to get another bathroom bill introduced this coming legislative session. And this one will probably pass due to Joe Strauss being out, and the fact they are loading up the legislature with far right social conservatives. I guess we get what we deserve for having such a pathetic voting turnout in this state. Dallas may be a progressive, tolerant city, but the fact that it is located in a state that session after session introduces and oftentimes passes anti-gay, woman, minority, immigrant bills, it will never fully shake its conservative, intolerant, backward image. Perception is reality for many people unfortunately.

[cowboyeagle05]

The Beto Cruz race is the only light in that tunnel. Makes it look like there are some people in this state that are not conservative extremists and that with the right motivation that could be motivated to show some turnout at the ballot but until the actual votes are in we are not sure how good or bad the illusion is. I don't believe in turning this state purple any time soon just that Beto could manage to sneak out a win with a few mistakes on Cruz's part. It would be a momentary win but still a win. As far as Amazon I think they see past the bathroom bill and that their own impact would help change the atmosphere.

[Tnexster]

The powers that be in Texas, especially in the Governor's office know the impact bills like that cost the state and obviously there are elected officials on both sides of the aisle that also understand the impact. Never underestimate the power of legislators to enact laws that don't serve the state well. Lots of that to go around, it is not unique to Texas, the sheer volume of companies and residents fleeing California should showcase that reality.

[lakewoodhobo]

I am not sure why we even pretend like we have a chance at this. Amazon absolutely will not move to a place that is located in a state that probably will have a bathroom bill passed during the next legislative session.

Oh, forget the bathroom bill. Now that we're looking at Roe v. Wade and Obergefell v. Hodges potentially overturned, why would any company from the east or west coast move to Texas where their female employees would not have access to safe and legal abortions, and their same-sex employees would not have their marriages recognized?

We may think the Texas economy is doing fine now, but future relocations are pretty much done if we get a more conservative U.S. supreme court. Amazon will go where their employees don't have to live in a Margaret Atwood novel.

[Jbarn]

The powers that be in Texas, especially in the Governor's office know the impact bills like that cost the state and obviously there are elected officials on both sides of the aisle that also understand the impact. Never underestimate the power of legislators to enact laws that don't serve the state well. Lots of that to go around, it is not unique to Texas, the sheer volume of companies and residents fleeing California should showcase that reality.

The powers that be know full well the impact but it doesn’t matter, as long as it gets their base fired up, and gets them through their primary. It makes me sick when abbott/paxton/patrick state they are making decisions that Texans want; they are making decisions based on what their tiny percentage of primary voters want. 5% of the state speaks for all of us.

[Kelley USA]

I'm probably one of the few Conservatives on here (and one of those Evangelical Christians at that- GASP!!)... Some of the comments above sort of make me chuckle, but hey we're all created different with different ideas and different opinions. I'm a proud Trump Supporter and a proud Cruz Supporter. I'm sure I'll get a notification soon that I've been banned from this forum

[mcrdal15]

I'm probably one of the few Conservatives on here (and one of those Evangelical Christians at that- GASP!!)... Some of the comments above sort of make me chuckle, but hey we're all created different with different ideas and different opinions. I'm a proud Trump Supporter and a proud Cruz Supporter. I'm sure I'll get a notification soon that I've been banned from this forum

As long as you're not a suburban sprawl apologist or think Downtown Dallas should be nothing more than one large asphalt parking lot, then you're fine .

[DPatel304]

I'm probably one of the few Conservatives on here (and one of those Evangelical Christians at that- GASP!!)... Some of the comments above sort of make me chuckle, but hey we're all created different with different ideas and different opinions. I'm a proud Trump Supporter and a proud Cruz Supporter. I'm sure I'll get a notification soon that I've been banned from this forum

As long as you're not a suburban sprawl apologist or think Downtown Dallas should be nothing more than one large asphalt parking lot, then you're fine .

Lol.. I second this notion.

[Mr. Amsterdam]

I'm probably one of the few Conservatives on here (and one of those Evangelical Christians at that- GASP!!)... Some of the comments above sort of make me chuckle, but hey we're all created different with different ideas and different opinions. I'm a proud Trump Supporter and a proud Cruz Supporter. I'm sure I'll get a notification soon that I've been banned from this forum

Ah, another Trump supporter with a victimhood complex. Please stop it.

[Kelley USA]

^^ Haha, far from being a victim... I might be a Russian bot but I'm definitely not a victim!

[Dragon_Lady]

Amen to the respectful rebuttal over the Evangelical comment. Honestly, I'm sick of corporate political identity. This great nation was and is built on the backs of small businesses; Dallas included. Frankly, its Dallas' history of innovation that have geographers collective heads scratching given we shouldn't exist anywhere near this size. Amazon and other cosmopolitan trans-national corporations can pound sand for all I care. Everything is political now. Everything...this site included. And what is said here is supposed to be about the critical love of architecture and city development w/o the acrimony of disparaging the Bill of Rights and peoples beliefs. For crying out loud. Now, let's hope Perot, KDC, et al., can seal the deal with other companies to relocate and find what we call home here in this storied but decent city of full potential, Dallas.

[lakewoodhobo]

Very interesting article about what's happened to New York City over the last 10 years due to too much growth. Maybe a cautionary tale for us.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatod ... /777568002

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Very interesting article about what's happened to New York City over the last 10 years due to too much growth. Maybe a cautionary tale for us.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatod ... /777568002

I don't think so... Dallas has much more room for growth. I don't know where I read it; but in one of the Amazon HQ 2 articles I read; Dallas ranked high in ability to handle more housing.

[lakewoodhobo]

Very interesting article about what's happened to New York City over the last 10 years due to too much growth. Maybe a cautionary tale for us.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatod ... /777568002

I don't think so... Dallas has much more room for growth. I don't know where I read it; but in one of the Amazon HQ 2 articles I read; Dallas ranked high in ability to handle more housing.

True, and really what I was focused on was the subway system and how the influx of new residents dependent on a single mode of transportation overwhelmed a system with serious deferred maintenance problems.

Plano is going through the same thing with its roads. They just can't handle more cars, and residents there have development fatigue.

[dallaz]

I'm probably one of the few Conservatives on here (and one of those Evangelical Christians at that- GASP!!)... Some of the comments above sort of make me chuckle, but hey we're all created different with different ideas and different opinions. I'm a proud Trump Supporter and a proud Cruz Supporter. I'm sure I'll get a notification soon that I've been banned from this forum

Good to know that I’m not alone

[cowboyeagle05]

Some of us are independent too so don't get too comfy with the conservative vs liberal agenda going here. Down with the two party system for sure but that's a whole other thread.

[DFW]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/08/16/as- ... trong.html

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Dallas and Austin ranked as the top 2 choices.... I doubt Amazon will come to Texas.

I feel like the same article is published every month with new rankings....

We are approaching a year now since this crowd sourced HQ contest started.

I am starting to see the bad side of this. For one, residents don't know what tax incentives or corporate welfare assistance was offered by their city.
Are cities really willing to sell the farm without letting citizens know the details?..

Theres gonna be outcry from residents when the winner is announced.

And to be Honest Amazon doesn't need help..they're about to worth a trillion dollars..

[DPatel304]

Yeah, they rated Dallas and Austin too highly compared to the other cities for me to really take it seriously. I don't get why so many articles seem to be so optimistic about Austin either. Aside from having a cool reputation, it seems like it loses in every other metric to Dallas.

I can't believe how long this thing has been drawn out, either. Outside of Amazon release their 'short' list of cities, we haven't heard a peep from them about this since then, and they did originally state they would make the decision sometime this year.

[Matt777]

Surprising that they knocked DFW on not having enough STEM workers.... when from my experience those workers are plentiful in the area especially in IT. And of course, super hyped golden boy Austin gets hyped for having so many tech workers. Austin's tech workers are a higher % of their total workforce than DFW, but DFW has far, far, far, far, far more people employed in information technology especially when it comes to the kind of tech workers Amazon would want (exposed to real business and not developing a new app for the new tofu sharing economy or a kombucha locating app or some other millenial nonsense my generation is creating down there).

According to governing.com/Brookings Institute, the share of STEM workers in DFW is 20.4% while the share in Austin is 22.7%, and of course they ranked Austin much higher on the STEM job ranking. Don't they realize that the employed population in the Austin metro is a fraction of that in DFW, therefore they're saying 22.7% of a small pie is better than 20.4% of a massive pie?

[cowboyeagle05]

Just read the article again it says cities in the same state will be rated the same because they didn't use city-specific numbers they used statewide numbers so Texas looked like number 1 according to their list. Since Houston and San Antonio are no longer on the list Dallas and Austin are basically rated the same due to generalized statewide numbers. Also, DC was not included in this list because they couldn't get comparable numbers since it's not a state.

[Tnexster]

It's a ridiculous exercise to put everyone through this mess. They know where they want to go and they could easily have done this examination confidentially but chose the highest drama route available.

[Cbdallas]

I still think they will pick a top 2 or 3 and then milk the incentives and go where they get the most.

[Tnexster]

I still think they will pick a top 2 or 3 and then milk the incentives and go where they get the most.

Yes and to play this game to get the most out of the incentives when you can buy and sell a small country is a little disturbing. I am not opposed to incentives but also think they serve a purpose that may not be in the best interests of the public in this situation.

[tamtagon]

Here's a story about Atlanta & Amazon from Jacksonville Florida:

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/flor ... /817494257

[Matt777]

Are proposals required to be public? I ask because I wonder if there are some proposals in Dallas that are "under the radar" and not published for the public. For example, what if the city partnered with a developer to propose all that city owned land on the south side of Deep Ellum as a potential site? Deep Ellum would be a perfect fit for Amazon culture and the south side of it has a lot of underutilized land that could be developed with taller buildings without hurting the character of core Deep Ellum. Connect it well to Exposition Park with multiple street and pedestrian corridors and you've got even more land for redevelopment (I figure Expo Park would be an ideal location for residential mid/high-rises and neighborhood services/retail to support residents). This would put the Amazon campus within reasonable walking distance from both Deep Ellum and Fair Park DART stations, but a streetcar or shuttle between the two stations that intersects the Amazon campus would make it spectacularly well connected. Proximity to I-30 makes it easy for those that choose to commute by car. It really would be an ideal development.

[DPatel304]

There was a similar proposal that was made public:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ret ... amazon-hq2

Not exactly what you are describing, but close, and I'm sure if Amazon were serious, they could modify any of these existing proposals and try and come up with a compromise.

My vote is still the Victory Park location. I guess the take away from this is that we actually have several solid options for a company like Amazon to consider, which could make us pretty attractive for other companies in the future.

[muncien]

My only concern for the VP proposal is that it's a little to high-rise oriented. Perhaps that is what Amazon wants, I don't know. But, I would much rather prefer 20, eight story buildings, over eight 20-story buildings. I don't think VP has the real estate to pull that off.
My preference would be anything within the CBD... primarily Headington/Spire lots. I really don't even think there is such a proposal officially, and getting multiple developers to consolidate a proposal is highly unlikely... But, that doesn't mean I can't wish for it. We have seen FAR LESS likely stuff thrown around as part of this circus. lol

[whit5125]

I want the Smart City location right next to City Hall. It redefines the CBD, is close to the up and coming Cedars, close to the high speed rail location, and would likely create the momentum to put a deck over the Canyon portion of I-30 to fully connect downtown with the Cedars.

That would truly transform Dallas....and give us some Skyscrapers as well, heck one of the proposals were over 1,000 feet. The Cedars would take off, the high speed rail would be in a perfect location, and probably would impact other things like getting the Trinity Park project off of the ground due to it and the positively impacted properties around it that are all along the river shooting up in value, further improving the city. Also, its location makes perfect sense and would pull in other companies back towards the CBD, anchor the Grow South plan and help push that south through the Cedars, and would probably still impact Expo Park positively as well as Deep Ellum.

Not to mention, it may even make the city consider tearing down parts of our uselessly oversized convention center that are not needed and taking up prime real estate.

[TNWE]

I still think they will pick a top 2 or 3 and then milk the incentives and go where they get the most.

Yes and to play this game to get the most out of the incentives when you can buy and sell a small country is a little disturbing. I am not opposed to incentives but also think they serve a purpose that may not be in the best interests of the public in this situation.

Incentives don't have to mean tax breaks- they could be non-financial considerations like transit investment, zoning variances, or some sort of expedited permitting process.

I could see a company like Amazon not wanting to have to file 800 different applications to various bodies just to put in a skybridge connection or ask for exceptions to parking or retail requirements that are more tailored for single-building projects.

I know some people on this board will crucify me for saying this, but the sort of urban development Amazon would bring to whoever they pick is big enough that that city should give leeway and not insist that each building individually meet zoning requirements, but rather assess the project as a whole.

[TNWE]

Not to mention, it may even make the city consider tearing down parts of our uselessly oversized convention center that are not needed and taking up prime real estate.

This is truly the strangest hobbyhorse of the Dallas urbanism crowd- There's plenty of "prime real estate" in the form of surface parking lots and dirt fields that should be developed before we start talking about tearing down existing civic infrastructure that brings a not-insignificant amount of walking, talking expense accounts that keep Downtown hotels and restaurants in business.

Do the people on NYC urban forums constantly fantasize about tearing down the oversized Javits center in favor of rent-controlled apartments?

[DPatel304]

So how long is Amazon going to keep us waiting? I know they said the announcement would come this year, and it's almost been exactly one year since HQ2 was announced.

[Cbdallas]

If we make the final short list I say we give them everything they want if they commit to going downtown. It would set a new course for Dallas for the next 50 years and secure us as a top business city.

[DPatel304]

They've already decided where they are going. If they release a shorter 'short' list, it's only purpose would be to pit the cities against each other and extract some insane incentives.

But yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I know these companies don't deserve the incentives, but a big move like this into the urban core would significantly speed up progress in this city. I'd be all for it.

[texasstar]

Not to mention, it may even make the city consider tearing down parts of our uselessly oversized convention center that are not needed and taking up prime real estate.

This is truly the strangest hobbyhorse of the Dallas urbanism crowd- There's plenty of "prime real estate" in the form of surface parking lots and dirt fields that should be developed before we start talking about tearing down existing civic infrastructure that brings a not-insignificant amount of walking, talking expense accounts that keep Downtown hotels and restaurants in business.

Do the people on NYC urban forums constantly fantasize about tearing down the oversized Javits center in favor of rent-controlled apartments?

Agreed, this drives me nuts as well.

[cowboyeagle05]

Except for the fact that supposedly land near 30 is more valuable than the random parking lots between Main Street and the Farmers Market...so if the city were to remove that glut of a convention center or some part of it they would free up land that could more easily see redevelopment more so than the many random parking lots downtown. That's of course if you believe in the anti-urbanism crowd argument that the highway adds value. Long live the suburban strip mall and tilt wall office complex! COurse if you are going to go down that route of thinking the convention center could be sheltering the southern end of Downtown from the terrible freeway evils.

[CTroyMathis]

The only thing I'd really like to see happen to the CC at this point is to just green roof it w/native grasses across the entirety of the complex, minus the arch-supported roof and the arena. And, also have living walls in several areas of the exterior vertical portions of the complex.

[whit5125]

Not to mention, it may even make the city consider tearing down parts of our uselessly oversized convention center that are not needed and taking up prime real estate.

This is truly the strangest hobbyhorse of the Dallas urbanism crowd- There's plenty of "prime real estate" in the form of surface parking lots and dirt fields that should be developed before we start talking about tearing down existing civic infrastructure that brings a not-insignificant amount of walking, talking expense accounts that keep Downtown hotels and restaurants in business.

Do the people on NYC urban forums constantly fantasize about tearing down the oversized Javits center in favor of rent-controlled apartments?

Agreed, this drives me nuts as well.

Am I saying remove the whole Convention Center? No, I am saying shrink it by tearing down the old parts of it that are pretty much sitting empty most of the time anyway eating up maintenance costs. Namely the original parts of the Convention center that are also right next to city Hall and easier to tear down. Keep the newer portions as those actually get used and are too expensive to take down anyway.

Particularly the non -ADA compliant Memorial auditorium and the original sections around it.

It also so happens to be the more usable bit of the real estate anyway, and if I remember correctly, one of the Smart City plans had the auditorium portion replaced with a hotel.

It has been proven that the convention center is too big, not that it is useless, just that for the activity it gets (which is a lot) it still is too big and the older portions will only become more and more of a drain anyway.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

The convention center and the surrounding parking lots are over kill .. doesn't the convention center operate at a net loss?

[cowboyeagle05]

Yes but the idea in some minds is that the economic benefit is worth it. Same goes for most city projects, like Fair Park and mass transit which is a multi-city deal. The city dumped the Farmers Market accepting that they shouldn't be running that one. Fair Park is on the way out the door as well. Transit is transit its always run at a loss. The convention center is the cities biggest boondoggle in some peoples mind. Well beyond the Trinity nonsense. When it comes to incentives for Amazon the idea is similar we give them a tax discount and they bring us high paying jobs and newly occupied office space, restaurants, service retail, transit users, shopping etc.