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Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

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Dettmann1
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Dettmann1 » 08 Sep 2017 06:01

I think this ends up boiling down to the following four cities:
- DFW
- Atlanta
- Philly
- Detroit

I know detroit seems like an outlier, but after reading the REP, it seems like the Airport will be a big part of the decision and all four of the cities mentioned are hubs. I've seen Chicago mentioned elsewhere, but I'm not sure how much of an incentive package they can throw at it given the state's budget woes.

In Dallas, I'll throw out a couple of wild card sites (one already mentioned):
- Trinity Groves
- Oak Cliff Dairies
- Mark Cubans land in the design district

Given Amazon's location in Seattle, I'm pretty confident they want an urban site. Both the Cuban site and oak cliff dairies have adequate access to rail and relatively cheap land around them for when the campus grows. Trinity Groves could probably gain transit fairly quickly by implementing the long term plan to turn the EW rail line adjacent to it into a second TRE line as shown in the dallas planning docs.

All three also have reasonable highway connections with modest to lie traffic congestion.

If Dallas was smart, they should pitch it as a revitalization of an urban neighborhood with a major park at the steps of the HQ with the Trinity River Park. All the sites also have the benefit of being a 30 to 45 min drive to DFW which doesn't have the congestion restraints a lot of the other airports do. I should say I'm skeptical they will do that as anything the city seems to touch regarding the trinity never seems to go anywhere...

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Cord1936
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Cord1936 » 08 Sep 2017 08:36

Image
The sun sets over the downtown business area of Seattle. AFP/Getty Images

Amazon spells out its ‘City Maker’ role in reshaping Seattle as it seeks a second headquarters site
Embracing a role as ‘City Maker,’ Amazon takes credit for 53,000 jobs in Seattle beyond its own roster of employees
By Andrea Riquier, Marketwatch, Sept 8, 2017 8:37 a.m. ET

Few companies can transform a city, but Amazon, the slayer of the retail industry, isn’t just any company. It’s a “City Maker.”
...
And that “City Maker” label? Bestowed on the company just this year by the Downtown Seattle Association (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsDo9foHXK8&feature=youtu.be).
...

Full article: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/as-amazon-hunts-for-hq2-heres-how-the-city-maker-says-its-reshaped-seattle-2017-09-07
Last edited by Cord1936 on 08 Sep 2017 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 Sep 2017 09:39

I think Philly or Atlanta will get it. Another Boeing ,missed opportunity, for Dallas.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 Sep 2017 09:45

Dettmann1 wrote:In Dallas, I'll throw out a couple of wild card sites (one already mentioned):
- Trinity Groves
- Oak Cliff Dairies
- Mark Cubans land in the design district


You forgot Harwood. Remember they have that massive site where a supertall was proposed. Hillwood Urban too is another option.

Reunion arena would be great as well.

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Dettmann1
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Dettmann1 » 08 Sep 2017 09:57

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Dettmann1 wrote:In Dallas, I'll throw out a couple of wild card sites (one already mentioned):
- Trinity Groves
- Oak Cliff Dairies
- Mark Cubans land in the design district


You forgot Harwood. Remember they have that massive site where a supertall was proposed. Hillwood Urban too is another option.

Reunion arena would be great as well.


I'd agree on reunion, however I doubt Hillwood would be in play. Amazon's RFP seems to indicate they want up to 100 acres or enough to at least "create a neighborhood" similar to what they did in Seattle. One supertall doesn't seem to be in their plans.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 08 Sep 2017 10:47

Yeah, Amazon is a part of the generation of companies that believe in a hybrid urban/suburban campus where it's less about a prestigious tower and a logo on the skyline but about the known impact the jobs and campus will have in the neighborhood surrounding it. They want the urban campus without the height but not suburban in its layout and design either. They know where ever they land will be like a new sun with other development circulating around it. That's the impact they care about not a spire in the skyline.

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tamtagon
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tamtagon » 08 Sep 2017 11:40

Fountain Place is likely to have a ton of space available.... EPA moving, and Tenent likely to finally get bought. Would play into the Headington based HQ2.

Of course, Amazon could take over Frisco. Not sure how The Cowboys would feel about that. A move like that could find Frisco the first of several new DART members, just to get light and heavy rail running parallel to the tollway and over to McKinney.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby lakewoodhobo » 08 Sep 2017 12:35

Seeing as how this is being called a "city maker", an urban campus for Amazon shouldn't be looked at in terms of building sites, but several blocks of developable property (even bigger than Spire downtown). Imagine what a location SE of downtown would do for Deep Ellum and Fair Park. The fabled Second Downtown.

Screen Shot 2017-09-08 at 12.27.29 PM.jpg
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 Sep 2017 12:37

tamtagon wrote:Fountain Place is likely to have a ton of space available.... EPA moving, and Tenent likely to finally get bought. Would play into the Headington based HQ2.

Of course, Amazon could take over Frisco. Not sure how The Cowboys would feel about that. A move like that could find Frisco the first of several new DART members, just to get light and heavy rail running parallel to the tollway and over to McKinney.


Amazon does urban settings and they stated they want transit. There's nothing urban about the 5 billion mile And it has no Transit.

It would take years , decades even,for frisco to get a rail. I doubt Amazon will want to wait an eternity for a requirement.
Last edited by Tivo_Kenevil on 08 Sep 2017 12:43, edited 1 time in total.

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tamtagon
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tamtagon » 08 Sep 2017 12:43

lakewoodhobo wrote:Seeing as how this is being called a "city maker", an urban campus for Amazon shouldn't be looked at in terms of building sites, but several blocks of developable property. Imagine what a location SE of downtown would do for Deep Ellum and Fair Park.

Screen Shot 2017-09-08 at 12.27.29 PM.jpg


Of all the possible site mentions, this is by far my favorite.

The Fair Park "city maker" location would do more for urban living in Dallas than where else except possibly Regal Row (with only potential an immediate TRE station). DART would seemingly overnight upgrade the tracks to the maintenance facility for regular passenger use - D3 if you will.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dfwcre8tive » 08 Sep 2017 13:03

Amazon’s second headquarters: Expect the unexpected

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/am ... nexpected/

Here’s my handicapping (and my colleague Matt Day has a list, too): Toronto, Denver and Dallas-Fort Worth would be at the top. They’ve got it all. Austin has tech talent, the University of Texas and a huge coolness factor — but it lacks a real international airport. Atlanta, with a huge airport and multiple universities is a sprawl mess — unless Amazon wanted to build a Seattle-like district in the city itself. There it could take advantage of “our” subway, MARTA (that’s where federal funding went when Seattle turned it down in 1970 — D’oh!). Vancouver, B.C., would compete but it’s in the same time zone as Seattle and ultraexpensive.

Some dark horses worth considering: Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Minneapolis. They have great city bones and potential, and would be affordable for an Amazon urban-innovation district. Calgary has a strong light-rail system. Monterrey and Guadalajara offer Mexico’s most dynamic business and information technology cities respectively. Phoenix has loads of land and potential, especially downtown, but lacks the educated workforce and suffers unfairly from Arizona’s intolerant reputation. North Carolina’s Research Triangle is always in the running but very car dependent.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby DPatel304 » 08 Sep 2017 13:08

I don't see them choosing Frisco, or Midtown or any location that may potentially have a rail line. If public transportation is important to them, I think it needs to be the CBD. Even if Midtown did get a rail line, it would just be one stop on one line, so getting anywhere would still be cumbersome. Downtown has access to all lines, the TRE, the streetcars, the DLINK, and the upcoming HSR.

I just feel like their standards will be high, and, if that's the case, I can't see them choosing to be anywhere outside of Dallas proper.

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jrd1964
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby jrd1964 » 08 Sep 2017 17:07

OK, is the Dallas area (mainly meaning the area most suitable to Amazon) ready in every way? If any spot here is a candidate and is due to land this, there can't be whatever mindset led Dallas down the garden path that led from oh-we're-world-class-already to "oh crap, what happened about Boeing??" like before. No we've-got-it-in-the-bag blind over-optimism, then get left in the dust wondering. Even though the DFW area enjoys quite the flow of transplants, there isn't the same flow of *large*/*major* corporate/company relocations. Firms the size of AT&T and ExxonMobil don't come along every day wanting to move, much less move here. Whatever is DFW's best/most-ideal foot forward will hopefully be what will appeal to Amazon, without any derailing surprises or possible dumb distractions (bathroom/taxation/etc legislation!).

Many Dallas-centric or Dallas-related choices have been brought up, but what about Fort Worth? Is there anything over there possibly suitable, or does it even have a chance?

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Cord1936
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Cord1936 » 08 Sep 2017 20:21

Image
Trinity River Front ... after Amazon HDQ 2 and Trinity River Parks spur billions in new investments!

If there ever were an ideal, absolutely "golden", reason for Dallas to get its act together for the Trinity River Parks project it is Amazon HDQ 2!

Since Amazon sees itself as a "City Maker" this could be a marriage made in heaven!

Add Amazon's $5 billion dollar investment on the banks of Dallas' significant investment ($600M-$1B) in the Trinity River Parks and voila, urban magic happens ... bigly!

Dallas would immediately be propelled into the GLOBAL MAJOR LEAGUES, re-making us into the New York City or Chicago of the 21st century ... we have to think big and bold and not act timid with this opportunity!

I simply cannot think of a greater inducement for the City of Dallas to make the Trinity River Parks happen than to have a truly GREAT urban park built (that is 11 times the size of Central Park) that Amazon's "City Maker" project would symbiotically give birth to and vice versa!

This is a once in a century opportunity for the City! A small pond or two being built do not count as "lakes"! Either do it BIG or don't do it all ... half hearted won't work to lure HDQ 2.

Note to Dallas City Hall: DON'T 'FRIGGIN BLOW IT!!!
Last edited by Cord1936 on 08 Sep 2017 21:40, edited 1 time in total.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby joshua.dodd » 08 Sep 2017 21:17

The Trinity River Project is going to happen nonetheless. In fact, work on it is supposed to start sometime soon, especially now that work is complete with the Horseshoe Project and the Trinity Toll road has been completely killed, thank god. The only thing to hold that up for now is work being done on a new pumping station off Riverfront.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby joshua.dodd » 08 Sep 2017 21:22

DPatel304 wrote:I don't see them choosing Frisco, or Midtown or any location that may potentially have a rail line. If public transportation is important to them, I think it needs to be the CBD. Even if Midtown did get a rail line, it would just be one stop on one line, so getting anywhere would still be cumbersome. Downtown has access to all lines, the TRE, the streetcars, the DLINK, and the upcoming HSR.

I just feel like their standards will be high, and, if that's the case, I can't see them choosing to be anywhere outside of Dallas proper.


This makes sense. The CBD is the central hub of the entire rail transit corridor for the Metroplex. If I understand correctly, the airport has a huge part in Amazon's choice. Consider the fact that DART rail gives a direct link from Downtown to the DFW Airport. It seems like the only reasonable choice.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 Sep 2017 21:39

Let's settle down people. Lol

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dukemeredith
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dukemeredith » 08 Sep 2017 22:16

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Let's settle down people. Lol


Lol

Cord, where did that picture even come from?!

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Cord1936
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Cord1936 » 08 Sep 2017 22:25

dukemeredith wrote:Cord, where did that picture even come from?!


It came from the Trinity Riverfront website. It is work that is being done by Stoss Architects in connection with City Design Studio to design how vibrant Dallas' core could become with a revamped Trinity River. The website has some really good stuff ... as well as some additional really cool renderings.

"Trinity Riverfront" is listed as an "In-Progress Competition" and has an incredibly well thought out plan for the Trinity River and how it could literally transform Dallas if its done right.

That's why I'm saying that a couple of small ponds don't cut it as "lakes" ... either do this right, and do it BIG, or don't do it at all.

Look how Uptown and Victory Park have exploded in a little over ten years ... literally from wasteland into a burgeoning multi-billion dollar urban development at this point ... the same could happen to the Trinity Riverfront area ... if done correctly. Amazon would be the perfect private partner for the City of Dallas to work with to make the public Trinity River project be pulled off in a big time manner ... that will pay off in spades for decades to come.

Image

Image

http://www.stoss.net/projects/27/trinity-riverfront/

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dallasrookie » 09 Sep 2017 08:56

Building/Site Requirements: Amazon is considering greenfield sites, infill sites, existing buildings, or a
combination for the Project. If existing buildings are available that can be retrofitted/expanded within
an acceptable budget and time schedule, Amazon may consider this option; however, the company
acknowledges that existing buildings may not be available to meet its requirements. As such, Amazon
will prioritize certified or shovel-ready greenfield sites and infill opportunities with appropriate
infrastructure and ability to meet the Project’s timeline and development demands, as set forth
below.

Site Requirements
Proximity to population center 30 Miles
Proximity to International airport 45 miles
Proximity to major highways and arterial roads Not more than 1-2 miles
Access to mass transit At site

Building Requirements
Initial Square Foot Requirement 500,000+ Sq. Ft Phase I (2019)
Total Square Foot Requirement Up to 8,000,000 Sq. Ft

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Tucy
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tucy » 09 Sep 2017 08:57


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dallasrookie
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dallasrookie » 09 Sep 2017 09:00

KEY PREFERENCES AND DECISION DRIVERS
The below are our preferences and are not in a ranking order. We want to encourage you to think
big and be creative as you are collaborating to respond. Please address the drivers discussed
below in your RFP submittals.

Site/Building – As described herein, finding suitable buildings/sites is of paramount importance.
Amazon HQ2 is a transformational Project, and we must ensure we have the best real estate
options available whether this be a redevelopment opportunity, a partnership with the state,
province, local government, or new buildings. All options are under consideration.
Capital and Operating Costs – A stable and business-friendly environment and tax structure will be
high-priority considerations for the Project. Incentives offered by the state/province and local
communities to offset initial capital outlay and ongoing operational costs will be significant factors in
the decision-making process.

Incentives – Identify incentive programs available for the Project at the state/province and local
levels. Outline the type of incentive (i.e. land, site preparation, tax credits/exemptions, relocation
grants, workforce grants, utility incentives/grants, permitting, and fee reductions) and the amount.
The initial cost and ongoing cost of doing business are critical decision drivers.

Labor Force – The Project includes significant employment requirements at the threshold
compensation levels described herein and with corresponding educational attainment of the
available workforce. The Project must be sufficiently close to a significant population center, such
that it can fill the 50,000 estimated jobs that will be required over multiple years. A highly educated
labor pool is critical and a strong university system is required.

Logistics – Personnel travel and logistics needs, both from population centers to the Project site, as
well as between company facilities, are critically important. As such, travel time to a major highway
corridor and arterial roadway capacity potential are key factors. The highway corridors must provide
direct access to significant population centers with eligible employment pools. Travel time to an
international airport with daily direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and
Washington, D.C. is also an important consideration.

Time to Operations – The Project requires an expeditious timetable for the location decision and
the commencement of construction. Given this, sites with the requisite access, utility
infrastructure, and zoning are critical. Please outline the permitting process and estimated
timetable to initiate Phase I of our operations.

Cultural Community Fit – The Project requires a compatible cultural and community environment for
its long-term success. This includes the presence and support of a diverse population, excellent
institutions of higher education, local government structure and elected officials eager and willing to
work with the company, among other attributes. A stable and consistent business climate is
important to Amazon. Please demonstrate characteristics of this in your response. We encourage
testimonials from other large companies.

Community/Quality of Life – The Project requires a significant number of employees. We want to
invest in a community where our employees will enjoy living, recreational opportunities, educational
opportunities, and an overall high quality of life. Tell us what is unique about your community

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dallasrookie
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dallasrookie » 09 Sep 2017 09:12

Tucy wrote:New York Times Picks Denver https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... rs-be.html


NY Times eliminated Dallas from the running because of our weak transit and bad congestion rankings according to the company INRIX: Atlanta, Miami, Dallas and Austin.

Las Colinas will be the best choice in my opinion. Transits (rail), close to university, < 30min to urban core, available land (old Texas stadium site). So dallasrookie picks Las Colinas :D

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PonyUp13
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby PonyUp13 » 09 Sep 2017 14:30

I think Headington and DTD gets the win here if our region gets the nod. The ability to sell that your site is at the crossroads of future D2 and for lack of a better term "D1" would be huge. Central downtown location, spinning a "revitalization" story (all those parking lots), different types of offices within a couple blocks (build to suit at Heads' sites, West End, existing space in Fountain Place/Ren Tower), as well as freeway access and amenities (restaurants, dry cleaners, etc). The more I'm reading the more it's clear that day one is not 50k people and not even close to 50k, but more 'which metro has the ability foster the growth to this size eventually.' That's a battle we are really good at vis-a-vis smaller metros.

I think our holdbacks are the university/talent production front (and I say that as a very proud SMU alum) as well as "cool factor." Recruiters have told me they're having a hard time filling the jobs of all the companys that have reloed here the last couple years, and my clients are unable to fill a lot of open accounting/finance jobs. My twenty-something friends from around the country who haven't visited me here have a somewhat ridiculous impression of what Dallas is like. That God the legislature is out of session while they're making this decision so they can't make us look foolish. My fear is that it becomes like the Boeing search where we're so good on paper but on the touchy-feely "do we want to be in Dallas" issues we end up losing.

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willyk
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby willyk » 10 Sep 2017 22:35

dallasrookie wrote:
Tucy wrote:New York Times Picks Denver https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... rs-be.html


NY Times eliminated Dallas from the running because of our weak transit and bad congestion rankings according to the company INRIX: Atlanta, Miami, Dallas and Austin.

Las Colinas will be the best choice in my opinion. Transits (rail), close to university, < 30min to urban core, available land (old Texas stadium site). So dallasrookie picks Las Colinas :D


To be clear, the NYT hates Dallas.

But consider this. If HQ2 is in Dallas, then execs in either HQ can day trip for a meeting at the other HQ and still sleep at home that night.

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muncien
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby muncien » 11 Sep 2017 08:47

willyk wrote:
dallasrookie wrote:
Tucy wrote:New York Times Picks Denver https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... rs-be.html


NY Times eliminated Dallas from the running because of our weak transit and bad congestion rankings according to the company INRIX: Atlanta, Miami, Dallas and Austin.

Las Colinas will be the best choice in my opinion. Transits (rail), close to university, < 30min to urban core, available land (old Texas stadium site). So dallasrookie picks Las Colinas :D


The transit hit on Dallas is also a bit misleading. The system itself is quite good, but the ridership suffers due to it's hub/spoke being in Dallas, and much of the employment centers being up north. But if Amazon is looking at locations along the trunk of the line (Las Colinas, Cowboys Stadium, Downtown options), it's actually setup quite nicely for transit connectivity. Just sayin...

Also... Denver is a solid option, but it's a bit hit and miss. If you have visited lately, you'll notice that the quality of life in downtown has suffered a lot. There is a significant transient population (many by choice), and while it may have desirable spots here and there, it is a far cry from the tech happy cities on the west coast. It has the downtown core of Dallas, but the homeless population of San Francisco. Probably not a good combination. But, maybe that's just my opinion.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby The_Overdog » 11 Sep 2017 09:11

The system itself is quite good, but the ridership suffers due to it's hub/spoke being in Dallas, and much of the employment centers being up nor


I'd say the opposite. There are at least 3 major employment centers in DART Corridors of 100k employees - downtown Dallas, Las Colinas, and Richardson Telecom Corridor, and it hits all the largest employment corridors in the city of Dallas. The downside is the number of people living adjacent to the rail lines is very low. Add the relative falsehood from INRIX saying any part of DFW has high roadway congestion because it's completely untrue, and you have a bad rail system.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Cbdallas » 11 Sep 2017 11:32

Lets tear down I 345 and give them that land to build in that footprint and connect Deep Ellum to Downtown.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 11 Sep 2017 13:43

^ Why do you hate Deep Ellum?

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dallasite24
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dallasite24 » 11 Sep 2017 13:44

Cbdallas wrote:Lets tear down I 345 and give them that land to build in that footprint and connect Deep Ellum to Downtown.


Unfortunately, that is at least a 20-year project. Possibly closer to 40 years.

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Matt777
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Matt777 » 11 Sep 2017 20:23

If Dallas and DART would get serious about upzoning land around DART stations, and fixing pedestrian infrastructure radiating from them, then it would be perfect for the growth that an Amazon HQ downtown would bring. The bones are there, the system is in place, now it just needs a kick of TOD development to take it to the next level.

The bus system redesign can't come fast enough. We need to consolidate routes and increase frequency on the main trunk routes that remain, like 5-10 minute intervals. Kind of like a "rapid bus" system, but not full BRT because it won't have a dedicated lane. I would fully welcome BRT lines but that will take much more planning, time, and money.

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Waldozer
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Waldozer » 11 Sep 2017 21:35

>To be clear, the NYT hates Dallas.

Ha, I doubt the NYT much cares about Dallas one way or another.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tanzoak » 12 Sep 2017 00:39

Waldozer wrote:>To be clear, the NYT hates Dallas.

Ha, I doubt the NYT much cares about Dallas one way or another.


Yeah, the idea that they eliminated Dallas bc they "hate" it is lol. That Dallas' transit is not up to par is a fact, though I think the bad traffic score isn't actually as big a negative as NYT represents. Dallas has worse traffic than Denver bc it's bigger, which is ultimately a positive factor.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby lakewoodhobo » 12 Sep 2017 08:51

In DART's defense, however, does Amazon really care how long it takes someone to travel from Pleasant Grove to Plano?

Amazon primarily wants direct access from an international airport to their campus, with employee housing along the way. In that scenario you can picture a downtown campus with new housing all along the orange and green lines. Bus routes and frequency can then be changed around those stations - that is, the foundations are there for an ideal transit system that meets their needs despite what any ranking says.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 12 Sep 2017 10:28

So here is some postulating but what if one of the garden style complexes Marquis on Gaston in Deep Ellum or Northend Apartments in Victory Park were a potential site. Both have great access to DART, the city would be happy to see them replaced with something urban/walkable and they have great connectivity all around. You could phase in tear down with the units if needed to build the campus in phases.

The Deep Ellum location would have the Epic has potential office space while more office space is built next door. Plus KDC has more land already on the Epic site. They could build more space if a tenant like Amazon showed up to add to needs of the project.

The Northend Apartments would be potentially pricer cause it is Uptown but it would be a great site that fits everything they need. Access to DART trains, TRE, Stemmons, bike routes into Uptown, towards Trinity Groves, grocery store hotels etc.

Plus the tear downs of either complex wouldn't take too much based on how they are built.

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CRE
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby CRE » 12 Sep 2017 10:52

Former EDS HQ combined with the Sam's club site could be a fit. Crow could thank the neighborhood for at some point.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby DPatel304 » 12 Sep 2017 11:42

lakewoodhobo wrote:In DART's defense, however, does Amazon really care how long it takes someone to travel from Pleasant Grove to Plano?


Yeah, I agree with this. Public transportation in DFW sucks, and will always suck. It's too big of a metroplex and it's unrealistic to service the entire area well.

But if Amazon decides to locate right at Union station, well then they have easy access to all DART rail lines (including the upcoming D2 line), the TRE, the upcoming HSR (hopefully), the streetcars, the DLink, the DART buses (which, hopefully, at some point will get a revamp), and the bike share programs. Public transportation may suck for DFW as a whole, but, for Amazon, I'd say that's a pretty sweet set up for them.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:So here is some postulating but what if one of the garden style complexes Marquis on Gaston in Deep Ellum or Northend Apartments in Victory Park were a potential site. Both have great access to DART, the city would be happy to see them replaced with something urban/walkable and they have great connectivity all around. You could phase in tear down with the units if needed to build the campus in phases.

The Deep Ellum location would have the Epic has potential office space while more office space is built next door. Plus KDC has more land already on the Epic site. They could build more space if a tenant like Amazon showed up to add to needs of the project.

The Northend Apartments would be potentially pricer cause it is Uptown but it would be a great site that fits everything they need. Access to DART trains, TRE, Stemmons, bike routes into Uptown, towards Trinity Groves, grocery store hotels etc.

Plus the tear downs of either complex wouldn't take too much based on how they are built.


When I was looking around the Deep Ellum area, the Marquis definitely caught my eye for this very reason. Northend is another good suggestion. Truth is, there is no shortage of prime spots for Amazon to locate to in Dallas (or even the suburbs if they go that route). It all just depends on whether or not they actually want to be in Dallas.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 12 Sep 2017 11:56

Also what I keep leaving out is just how much land they want. If they truly want near 100 acres most of these sites will not be enough except maybe the Riverfront HSR site. The two I just listed are a tiny sliver of what they have requested. At least, in that case of the Mathews Southwest site, HSR would be an awesome amenity but the DART train connection would have to vastly improve. The city and the county have already been planning and is programmed to make major infrastructure improvements to the Riverfront site south of 30 and it's mostly shovel ready. Lord knows lots of renderings have already been done on that site so a vision could be easily created with Amazon's stamp on it.

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tanzoak
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tanzoak » 12 Sep 2017 12:26

lakewoodhobo wrote:In DART's defense, however, does Amazon really care how long it takes someone to travel from Pleasant Grove to Plano?

Amazon primarily wants direct access from an international airport to their campus, with employee housing along the way. In that scenario you can picture a downtown campus with new housing all along the orange and green lines. Bus routes and frequency can then be changed around those stations - that is, the foundations are there for an ideal transit system that meets their needs despite what any ranking says.


I understand that transit does exist in Dallas, but the reality is that only 1.6% of workers in DFW use transit. Forget about comparing that to places like Toronto, Chicago, Philly, DC, compare it even to Atlanta (3.2%) and Denver (4.4%). And ok, we're just looking at cores--Ft Worth isn't relevant here--but only 4.4% of Dallas city uses transit vs 9.9% for Atlanta and 7% for Denver. Using absolute numbers shows the same results.

The reason for this is that DART isn't convenient. Not just for the Pleasant Grove-to-Plano trip, but in general. Park-and-ride orientation dramatically reduces the number of potential users compared to a truly urban station design--it's a terrible experience to walk to basically any of the stations--and plopping even a bunch more high-rises along 75 isn't that many people in the scheme of things (and again, crappy to walk to).

Also, the DFW-DART connection isn't as good as many of you think it is. Downtown to DFW: an hour on the train, plus the terminal station is terribly out-of-the-way, which adds a lot more time. Compare to Toronto (YYZ): 30 min, Chicago (ORD): 45 minutes and convenient drop-off or MDW: 25 min, PHL: 20 min, ATL: 20 min, DEN: 40 min, etc.

Look, I know we all want Amazon to happen, but let's not delude ourselves. The presence of a transitable urban environment that will appeal to the people Amazon wants to recruit is absolutely our biggest weakness compared to our major competitors (imo Toronto, Chicago, Philly, and DC). The other two significant weaknesses are a dearth of good universities (again, I understand UT-D etc exists, but please compare to those other cities) and the cultural concerns stemming from the bathroom bill warriors down in Austin.

The good news is that I don't think this is an insurmountable obstacle, and I think that the large local workforce, a growing and business-friendly region and state, the abundance of relatively cheap land and low cost of living, and excellent airport all make Dallas a very strong contender. Most concerned about Toronto and Philly, though.

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muncien
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby muncien » 12 Sep 2017 12:41

Transit may not be perfect, but it would really only be an issue for sites in places like Richardson, Plano, Frisco, The Colony, etc...
If you think our stations are in wastelands, try riding the train in Denver. I really have no idea what they were thinking.

I'm also remembering this deal that Texas struck with Amazon five years ago... I know it's just a drop in the bucket, but it does come to mind...
In exchange for Amazon’s promise to collect future taxes, create at least 2,500 jobs and make at least $200 million in capital investments in the Lone Star state,


I think in the big picture, we have as many, or more ping pong balls in the hopper than any other city. But on a whole, the other cities have far more combined ping pong balls than we do, so it will be a long shot. Pardon the NBA Draft Lottery analogy... :)
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby maxconcrete » 12 Sep 2017 20:09

There is a fixation on transit by many folks who have commented, but if you look at the actual Amazon requirements https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf, you'll see that there is only one mention of transit as a requirement (see page 2). My interpretation is that bus routes alone will meet that requirement.

The requirement is heavily focused on the buildings, building site, building efficiency, and speed at which new buildings can be built (i.e. shovel-ready sites). There are also multiple mentions of the need for skilled workforce and high-quality universities. The "Key preferences and decision drivers" section does not mention mass transit. The section does mention "travel time to a major highway corridor and arterial roadway capacity potential are key factors".

So based on the requirement, transit is a very minor factor in their decision-making. So everyone focusing on mass transit needs to stop their transit advocacy and focus on what really matters: the site, the workforce, higher education, pro-business climate and (yes, very important) incentives.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Matt777 » 12 Sep 2017 20:48

I think we have a young transit system that could use work but has potential, but lets look 10-20 years down the road. When autonomous vehicles rule the roads, will fixed transit systems matter as much? Dallas is perfectly set up for this because we have ample road/expressway infrastructure so people and goods would be able to move around the metroplex at rather high speeds in autonomous vehicles. We would have extra infrastructure that could be turned into developable land or parks. With Amazon always getting into new lines of business, maybe this is even an area they are planning to get into. Why walk 5-10 minutes to a train station when there are cheap autonomous cars/pods waiting right outside your door or nearby, Uber style, 24/7, and they'll take you exactly where you want to go?

I will also say that people in this thread and on other boards are generalizing and stereotyping the "people that Amazon hires." I work in the IT field, on the business side, and there are many who are trying to relocate here even from the Seattle area. Especially true in the South Asian community. Yes, some young workers want the urban lifestyle and they can get that in certain neighborhoods in central Dallas at a fraction of the price, and a lot want that 5 bedroom house near good schools and shopping/dining, and our suburbs offer that in droves. Our urban neighborhoods are improving and are getting there, but I feel it's pretty easy to attract talent here once they put stereotypes aside and come see the kind of life they can choose from here. I see it all the time.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tanzoak » 12 Sep 2017 21:52

maxconcrete wrote:


I agree that workforce (existing labor pool, universities, and ability to attract) is the far and away the #1 consideration.

But the idea that transportation is just a minor, box-checking concern is wrong. According to friends who work there, they've had a major issue in Seattle with getting people to work on-time and in a reasonable amount of time.

Transit quality isn't important per se, as much as it improves the ability of your workers to get to the office. Think about how congested central Dallas freeways are now. Now add 50k Amazon workers heading downtown plus additional non-amazon employment growth. That becomes a problem if the only good option is driving and transit only makes sense for a few people.
Last edited by tanzoak on 12 Sep 2017 22:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby tanzoak » 12 Sep 2017 22:03

Matt777 wrote:


Agreed that Dallas would provide nice options for Amazon to offer potential employees depending on their preferences. Want high-amenity city-living and are willing to pay for it? Welcome to Seattle! Want a big house with a yard and/or prefer a lower cost of living? Dallas it is!

Automated vehicles don't solve the problem that transit is designed for--a large number of people going to one place at the same time. They will make road traffic issues worse, not better, as you add mileage from cars driving around with no passengers.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Matt777 » 12 Sep 2017 22:27

tanzoak wrote:
Matt777 wrote:


Agreed that Dallas would provide nice options for Amazon to offer potential employees depending on their preferences. Want high-amenity city-living and are willing to pay for it? Welcome to Seattle! Want a big house with a yard and/or prefer a lower cost of living? Dallas it is!

Automated vehicles don't solve the problem that transit is designed for--a large number of people going to one place at the same time. They will make road traffic issues worse, not better, as you add mileage from cars driving around with no passengers.


I'm talking about when all vehicles are automated, not just a few Teslas here and there. The computer guided systems will pretty much program out congestion. Cars won't stop nearly as much as with traditional stoplight guided traffic, traffic will naturally be guided around accidents, people won't be in control. It's not going to happen overnight but likely will 10-20 years down the road when this complex is built and ramping up to 50k employees.

Also we are not completely out of the picture of those prefering an urban lifestyle. We are not NYC not San Francisco, but we offer a very liveable urban lifestyle downtown where you can have that nice highrise apartment, be near lots of entertainment and dining options, and close to other young people, for a fraction of the price. I had some friends visit recently from San Francisco, all young urban Stanford grads, and they had a great time in Dallas and going out in Deep Ellum. It was a nice summer day and we did brunch on McKinney Ave, the Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera exhibit at the DMA, Kylde Warren, and they saw my new apartment in Victory Park and we spent time hanging out at the rooftop pool with a lovely skyline view. They loved it and couldn't believe the lifestyle I live with us being 29, and them still living like college students despite being very well paid and working long hours. One of them sent me his resume and asked me to start circulating it around so he could possibly relocate to Dallas (and he's in tech).

Educated Millenials are not a monolith and we don't all want to live packed 5 people to a small apartment in San Francisco, not saving for the future, not having money to travel, and working our butts off just to pay taxes and rent so we can live in San Francisco and have no time to enjoy it (despite how wonderful the city is). Some will, but many are looking for an alternative. Despite our mass transit shortcomings, urban Dallas has something to offer educated millennials and it's improving every day.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby DPatel304 » 13 Sep 2017 01:06

Matt777 wrote:Despite our mass transit shortcomings, urban Dallas has something to offer educated millennials and it's improving every day.


True, and Amazon locating here would drastically improve the area as well.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby lakewoodhobo » 13 Sep 2017 17:30

Based on this article it sounds like a bunch of execs have a boner for Austin. They've probably never driven on Mopac or I-35.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ret ... adquarters

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby dukemeredith » 13 Sep 2017 22:39

lakewoodhobo wrote:Based on this article it sounds like a bunch of execs have a boner for Austin. They've probably never driven on Mopac or I-35.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ret ... adquarters


Actually, it reads like a bunch of "associates" or "rank and file" amazon employees have expressed an interest in Austin. Not the executives.

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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 13 Sep 2017 22:49

tanzoak wrote:Look, I know we all want Amazon to happen, but let's not delude ourselves. The presence of a transitable urban environment that will appeal to the people Amazon wants to recruit is absolutely our biggest weakness compared to our major competitors (imo Toronto, Chicago, Philly, and DC).


Agreed. Dallas just lacks in in Urban Fabric. But you never know, who knows what will happen or what Amazon will prioritize. With that said check out this multi billion vision for a Chicago Amazon HQ.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... olumn.html


If that's what we're against. YIKES! Boeing part deux.

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muncien
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Re: Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

Postby muncien » 14 Sep 2017 09:11

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
tanzoak wrote:Look, I know we all want Amazon to happen, but let's not delude ourselves. The presence of a transitable urban environment that will appeal to the people Amazon wants to recruit is absolutely our biggest weakness compared to our major competitors (imo Toronto, Chicago, Philly, and DC).


Agreed. Dallas just lacks in in Urban Fabric. But you never know, who knows what will happen or what Amazon will prioritize. With that said check out this multi billion vision for a Chicago Amazon HQ.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... olumn.html


If that's what we're against. YIKES! Boeing part deux.


OMG... The comments on that article are hilarious. Apparently they don't seem to think they have much of a chance.

Here is an example:
806 homicides in Chicago in 2016. Distributed equally among 2.6 million residents, that means: 1 in every 3350 Chicagoans were killed last year.... Amazon is looking to house 50,000 employees... It follows that, 14.9 Amazon employees would be murdered each year, if Amazon were to choose Chicago......

Try selling that to a Board of Directors............
lol

Personally, I think Chicago's city core is awesome. I just went there twice in the last couple of months. For all the problems the greater Chicagoland and the State have, the city is pretty top notch. Not sure if that's enough to overcome the weaknesses though.
I tend to think Amazon has a couple of favorites already singled out internally, and unless someone comes up with something fantastic, they probably already know where they'll go. No clue where that is though...
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