Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Northpark Center

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hjkll
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby hjkll » 29 Oct 2017 17:33

I might be in the minority on this thread but I actually hope Northpark doesn't expand too much more with a second floor. I would much rather them invest with renovating and updating the existing mall which is already enormous. The fountain area around Dillard's just looks awful. That whole part of the mall looks beyond old and has deteriorated significantly over time, clearly all of Northpark's time and energy goes into pumping up the "new luxury" wing between Neiman's and Nordstrom.

Clearly with moves like adding Akola and Ruti they are going for a differentiation strategy which I think is great. No matter how great the stores are, if they are all chain stores found in every other great mall/shopping street in the country, it will be extremely boring. I also think they are a bit too hyper with their stores constantly opening and closing. Tory Sport was open for a few months and then moved. Surgafina is moving to what was going to be the NARS space. What happened to NARS? Diesel closed, and though it's not exactly the country's most "it" retailer, making them go was an iffy decision in my opinion. I would like them to close down Macy's and build an Eataly with some sort of walkable green space/gardens around it.

People need to realize Northpark can be a powerhouse retail destination in the city, but it can't be the "be all end all" of shopping in DFW. Look at the brands Reformation and Garrett Leight Optical, 2 extremely cool coastal retailers who just expanded inland- both just moved to Knox Henderson. Half the stores in HP Village would not in a million years move into a mall, even a luxury minded mall like Northpark.

Jasimm- I completely agree about Anthro in HP Village. It's an enormous store and only a matter of time to see how long they stay. Both Filson and Shinola were kicked out of HPV to make room for Cartier, thus signaling a top tier retail strategy is their end game. I'd love them to cut that space into smaller stores for brands like Goyard or Loewe (the "it" Spanish brand of the moment which would resonate extremely well with Mexican travelers). Or it'd interesting if the space was turned into a restaurant expanding from another city like Sadelle's in New York, a high end Jewish restaurant extremely popular for brunch.

Highland Park Village is actually doing just fine. Maybe not every store is having blowout numbers- (I'm always curious about Giuseppe Zannoti), but overall their sales are just fine. Hermes expanded last year. No store expands unless they are doing fantastically.

What HPVillage really needs is to fix their parking lot. The actual stores are gorgeous, but the parking lot honestly looks awful and when is completely full looks like a car dealership. It would cause screams that could be heard on Neptune- but I think they should take away 1/3 of the parking, expand the spots just a little bit, and even make the entire street cobblestone or brick, or another high end material. The sidewalks in front of all the stores should be expanded by 2-3 feet. They have that surface lot just north of Mockingbird which could have underground parking or a second level, and it wouldn't look to bad if they continued the Spanish style architecture.

HP Village is basically full, and though some stores have closed at Northpark due to their own company bankruptcies- BGBG and American Apparel most obviously, Northpark still doesn't have tons of room for newcomers. It will really be Knox Henderson who will undoubtedly become the new destination for smaller retailers that don't have a massive footprint and want a cooler, lower key area.

Downtown will continue to be a place for rare product retailers. I believe Bang and Olufsen was going to open on Main Street but I have heard nothing new about that. I wouldn't be surprised if b8ta, which has stores in Austin and Houston opened Downtown.

tamtagon- I also totally agree with your point. Our city's retail scene will only grow in importance and vibrancy as we continue to see population growth in Uptown, Oak Lawn, Downtown, West Dallas, and Oak Cliff. Smaller boutiques will continue opening in core neighborhoods, and I wouldn't be surprised if By George, a small luxury boutique like Tenoversix based in Austin opened up in West Dallas.

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 29 Oct 2017 20:18

Yes, the fountain outside of Dillards needs to be updated and that whole duck pond/planter the kids slide on outside Neimans needs to be torn out. I can't believe the mall lets kids climb on the fixtures and slide down them!

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hjkll
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby hjkll » 29 Oct 2017 20:51

I know I actually agree. Those slide fixtures are actually right by the old Cartier and the about to move Valentino. I wonder if 24/7 screaming children at all affected them moving to HPV lol

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Oct 2017 10:04

That fountain area has been for kids since the mall opened. They long ago realized it and embraced it rather than having security guards have to stand guard. Look at it this way its this or a god awful kids playground area that usually looks terrible in these areas. The Ducks and Turtles are a thing they do for the kids.

http://www.northparkcenter.com/posts/northpark-the-story-behind-the-iconic-northpark-planters

...For nearly 50 years, children have enjoyed running up and sliding down the iconic, mid-century planters located in front of Neiman Marcus entrance. The four planters are part of the original architecture of the shopping center, and are a cherished design feature appreciated by both architects and little action seekers...

...Every year, millions of NorthPark visitors enjoy coming back time and again to see the foliage and flowers change with the season. And every year, thousands of children discover a carefree slide down the iconic NorthPark planters...

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Oct 2017 10:09

This is an opinion piece about NorthPark kids areas or lack thereof...

I never really thought about it before, because I see a lot of kids there, running around on the green space courtyard, which is not all cluttered up with playgroung junk. And I see parents letting their kids climb on the giant sculpture near the theater. (My mom would have spanked me.) But this writer has a point, and I guess it's one of the reasons NorthPark is the only mall I can stomach.

I'm not anti-kid, and neither is the mall. They have a whole strip of stores devoted to the little people. But, no, there is no hard-foam, garish, cheesy play area, no place to dump the kids while Mommie shops. NorthPark's above that, and good on them!


I am sure there are mixed responses to this one.

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Oct 2017 10:17

Personally, I love the kids playing there and I doubt its the reason Cartier is moving. They are even referred to as the Tiffinay fountains so maybe Cartier felt inferior lol. Many of their customer's kids play there at the fountains while mommy looks at what her husband is going to buy her next and that's the target market for that store, the Highland Park moms. Cartier is moving cause they want to move not because of some kids, ducks, and turtles.

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citygeek
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby citygeek » 30 Oct 2017 11:01

North Park IS tired and the points that hjkll makes are spot on.

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Oct 2017 11:09

NorthPark is the only mall I go to because of its the only one that I like due to its cleanliness, artwork, store mixture, food offerings, parking, overall look and feel etc. It is also well maintained but that's the beauty of Dallas being such prominent shopping city. We have another mall for you if you don't like the one your in.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 30 Oct 2017 12:54

Speaking as a member of the high disposable income, 50+ demographic that Northpark covets, things like watching my kid slide down the same planters his old man did 45 years before are why Northpark is the only shopping mall we've been to in the better part of a decade.

Catering to parents is a big part of what makes Northpark the commercial success and icon that it is. It's why they've had the same Santa for almost 30 years. It's why they bring back the corny Scrooge show and the somewhat ragged pecan reindeer year after year. It's why the Titche's fountain (it will always be Titche's) needs no updating. Because these things bring back the memories for those of us who grew up there.

It's a lot like Disneyland. Disneyland is an icon not because it caters to today's children, but because it caters to the idealized childhood memories of today's adults.

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tamtagon
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby tamtagon » 30 Oct 2017 13:48

Hannibal Lecter wrote: It's why the Titche's fountain (it will always be Titche's) needs no updating.


The underlying truth of Northpark Mall is fashion; some fashion is disposable on purpose, some fashion is timeless, on purpose. Over the decades, that fountain will look old and stupid to an age group for a while, then it will look great and retro... whatever. Everything about the mall simple and exact, on purpose. It's an ideal setting. Nostalgia works best in a simple setting, too, obviously -- Hannibal never likes anything!

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Oct 2017 16:12

Yep, I agree with Hannibal Lecter up there. That fountain is not going anywhere cause its a classic to those who NorthPark is targeting. It's a classic to me cause I know the history even though my parents never took me anywhere besides Town East mall. It's classic because its design looks tasteful and it is highly functional for children in the same stroke of a pen. I am sure there is a parent somewhere who disagrees but if it truly was dangerous NorthPark would have been sued to high heaven already.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Cbdallas » 30 Oct 2017 16:15

What happened to the discussed hotel condo development on site. It has been a few years but nothing.

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hjkll
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby hjkll » 30 Oct 2017 16:47

citygeek wrote:North Park IS tired and the points that hjkll makes are spot on.


Thank you so much! Haha

& wow who knew my comment about the fountain and sliding things would cause such a stir! I wasn’t even saying either are that awful, just that a lot of Northpark really feels tired. I agree the fountain is classic, but that part of the mall looks so deteriorated especially looking at Corner Bakery. They need to open up the ceiling and let more light stream in.

I’m actually ok with the planters staying and of course the fountain should stay! I just wish Northpark spent as much time fixing their current infrastructure instead of moving stores around every 45 minutes.

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Jasimm
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Jasimm » 30 Oct 2017 17:04

hjkll wrote:
citygeek wrote:North Park IS tired and the points that hjkll makes are spot on.


Thank you so much! Haha

& wow who knew my comment about the fountain and sliding things would cause such a stir! I wasn’t even saying either are that awful, just that a lot of Northpark really feels tired. I agree the fountain is classic, but that part of the mall looks so deteriorated especially looking at Corner Bakery. They need to open up the ceiling and let more light stream in.

I’m actually ok with the planters staying and of course the fountain should stay! I just wish Northpark spent as much time fixing their current infrastructure instead of moving stores around every 45 minutes.



I agree that this side of the center looks "older" but I truly think it is the lack of windows and natural sunlight. The second floor renovations allow in so much light that when you come to this side it looks drab and outdated. That is why I am for the completion of the second level that will in turn make the entire center full of natural lights and not hazy fluorescents.

Also I am sure that the planters did not make any stores leave or move, Northpark is just continuing the center's transformation that they started for its 50th anniversary. They mentioned years of store shuffling and new stores as it keeps its stores as Dallas/ Texas exclusives and making sure that stores have the latest concepts of the brands retail spaces represented. The fountain and the planters are iconic of Northpark and will never be removed, the Nashers often have celebrated the generations of children/families who have fond memories of these spots.

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Butters
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Butters » 30 Oct 2017 21:59

i will take NorthPark and some of its flaws over HPVillage all day long. Great shops for my kids and my wife, cool art, great landscaping and A/C when its bouncing hot.

Btw, Please name three HPV shores NOT RESTAURANTS you visit more than 3 times per year. NorthPaek has tons of stores I visit monthly. HPV would be packed if it was more like Abott Kinney. Cool boutiques and restaurants. Like I said I will gladly be back over the next 5 years to say told you so.....another one closed or moves to NorthPark..

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Jasimm
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Jasimm » 30 Oct 2017 22:50

Butters wrote:i will take NorthPark and some of its flaws over HPVillage all day long. Great shops for my kids and my wife, cool art, great landscaping and A/C when its bouncing hot.

Btw, Please name three HPV shores NOT RESTAURANTS you visit more than 3 times per year. NorthPaek has tons of stores I visit monthly. HPV would be packed if it was more like Abott Kinney. Cool boutiques and restaurants. Like I said I will gladly be back over the next 5 years to say told you so.....another one closed or moves to NorthPark..


I do not understand why you keep wanting to compare the two centers together, they are very different clients with very different end goals. They are both beautifully designed in their own styles and have great landscaping care behind the scenes of the gardens. Dallas' "Abott Kinney" would be Knox-Henderson or Bishop Arts District both great neighborhoods with more potential than ever.

To each their own on how they spend their money but I visit several of the shops frequently for goods. Bluemercury/Kiehl's have all my hair styling or skin care needs, James Perse has great comfort clothes for lounging around the house, I frequent Hermes when I need to purchase a gift for my mother or to have my own pieces serviced and that goes the same with Cartier now in HP Village. Alexander McQueen has generally decent sales where I get nice formal wear and the skull jewelry always gets people's attention. I recently stopped by Stella McCartney to purchase a shirt and some chelsea boots but they do not sell mens in store so they ordered it for me.

Hermes, Chanel, and Ralph Lauren have all been in the center from the 80s.....Escada, Beretta Gallery from the 90s...Jimmy Choo, Tory Burch from the early 2000s... It goes on and on the center has a long established history of new to market luxury stores.

Blah Blah Blah I could go on but no point...You will still find a reason to fight about the stores. This is still Northpark's thread so lets get back to that.....

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 31 Oct 2017 21:05

Butters wrote:Btw, Please name three HPV shores NOT RESTAURANTS you visit more than 3 times per year.

Unless you count the movie theater as a store....never. Have not shopped in a store there even once.

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 31 Oct 2017 21:14

There's only a few stores I shop at in NorthPark too. I used to frequent Diesel, Puma and Penguin, but those are all gone now.

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Butters
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Butters » 01 Nov 2017 12:37

Jasimm -

Your missing the point of my response. Both are completely different centers but what you don't seem to realize is small local Luxry centers like HPV with little tourist customers need foot traffic and we can agree to disagree but we shall see over the next 3-5 years how many stores close or relocate. I've heard of at least 7 new stores who are doing terrible. If the stores were more affordable you'd get more shoppers regularly than just regulars going to Starbucks and the 3 restaurants weekly.
Last edited by Butters on 01 Nov 2017 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Jasimm
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Jasimm » 01 Nov 2017 14:16

Akola, Now Open (Previous True Religion Space).

"Akola is a nonprofit jewelry brand that empowers women in poverty in Uganda and Dallas, TX to redesign their stories. Each piece of jewelry is handcrafted by 1 of 500 of those women. 100% of Akola revenue is reinvested in our mission to help these women transform their families and communities."

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 01 Nov 2017 20:29

Akola is definitely a pop-up as well, probably for the holiday season. Good use of the previous True Religion space though.

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby BobbyB75254 » 07 Nov 2017 16:45

For those of you curious about hotel development at Northpark Mall, I found this online today. It seems that Marriott is planning a J.W. Marriott Hotel, the first J.W. Marriott in DFW. The Brand fact sheet on their website indicates "250 Room JW Marriott Dallas - Northpark Center 2018" I can't see them constructing and opening by 2018, but they could certainly start construction by 2018. Anyone know any further details? Also, I suppose it could be built neat Northpark Center, and not exactly on site. It seems likely that a hotel attached to the mall would make sense such as the JW Marriott in Atlanta that is connected to Lenox Square Mall.


https://www.iltm.com/__novadocuments/33 ... 9664400000

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Matt777
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Matt777 » 07 Nov 2017 17:42

Boo. I was hoping for a large, signature JW Marriott in either Downtown or Uptown. 250 rooms isn't that big, especially considering the Austin location has 1,000+ rooms. Such a blah location too. I think Northpark needs a hotel(s) but I was hoping for more from Marriott considering the investments they've made with the JW brand in other cities. We do have a Ritz, but still.

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 07 Nov 2017 19:24

250 rooms is pretty small for what I would have imagined NorthPark would have.

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Re: Northpark Center

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 08 Nov 2017 09:34

I would bet that information is not finalized. That number of rooms, when you compare it to the already built JW's on the list, sounds like a placeholder number to me. There may not have been a detailed plan ready when they completed that memo. I imagine it is simply the standard number of rooms required by the JW brand. Once a more detailed plan is developed with actual renderings the number of room fluctuates based on what they anticipate that market will actually be able to absorb. I assume if they do ever build an attached hotel will it connect with a sky bridge like the parking garages or just be surrounded by parking lot.

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tamtagon
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby tamtagon » 08 Nov 2017 11:46

The overnight accommodation marketplace along NCX from SMU to Texas Instruments is similarly under-served and under-worked in scope, scale and variety as CBD had been until recently.

Hotel on this stretch of Central are stuck in 1985, seemingly aimed more at the customer midway between The Village and Vickery Meadows.... There's a Budget Inn across the street from Northpark Mall? what?!

Since the turn of the century, wide scale gentrification continues to strike down lower & low income neighborhoods across NE Dallas, and we should not expect that to stop.

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Butters
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Butters » 08 Nov 2017 18:42

This is a great and smart addition. I've read NorthPark is DFW's #1 tourist attraction with something like 23 million visitors. I know my friends who visit Big D who stay in uptown and especially Downtown wish their hotel was next to shopping....why, because women LOVE TO SHOP. Where women go, men flock. JW Marriott will be packed and they will have no competition in that location.

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mdg109
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby mdg109 » 08 Nov 2017 19:27

A mall is the #1 tourist attraction? That's lame. DTD doesn't need to have as much retail as a mall, but some key, affordable stores would really make a difference.

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Matt777
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Matt777 » 08 Nov 2017 21:09

mdg109 wrote:A mall is the #1 tourist attraction? That's lame. DTD doesn't need to have as much retail as a mall, but some key, affordable stores would really make a difference.


I highly doubt that. They probably mean the mall gets 23 million visitors annually. That's about 63,000 visitors per day on average. That doesn't mean they're all tourists, that's just overall shoppers. Tourists are probably a small percent of that total.

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Butters
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Butters » 08 Nov 2017 21:49

I love bantering with negative nellies. Define tourist or visitor. How far away makes you a local vs tourist / visitor. My good friend who Has worked at multiple stores at NorthPark said more than 40% of their customers came from a distance of 50 miles or greater. I'd call someone from outside 50 miles a tourist or visitor.

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Matt777
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Matt777 » 08 Nov 2017 23:02

Butters wrote:I love bantering with negative nellies. Define tourist or visitor. How far away makes you a local vs tourist / visitor. My good friend who Has worked at multiple stores at NorthPark said more than 40% of their customers came from a distance of 50 miles or greater. I'd call someone from outside 50 miles a tourist or visitor.

I'm not being negative, I just don't think it is the #1 tourist draw, nor should it be. That would be sad. If you can prove otherwise, I will gladly accept that. But it has to be more than anecdotal evidence.

Those 23 million "visitors" per year have to be overall shoppers. There is no way that 63,000 out of towners descend on NorthPark every day. So that information was wrong. Secondly, of the people from out of town that are shopping there, what percentage came to Dallas specifically to shop at NorthPark? Many might be here for other reasons and shop there while visiting town. For tourist destinations, I would say Dealey Plaza/Sixth Floor Museum counts more as an actual destination and is probably one of the most visited in the area. That or Six Flags, FW Stockyards, etc.

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tamtagon
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby tamtagon » 09 Nov 2017 08:43

^I'd believe it.... Northpark is a known shopping destination across the country - well known in certain circles - and the closer you live to Dallas, the more likely you are to visit.

A photog-friend in ATLarea went to a meet-up with a bunch of others in Dallas this summer to play with Olympus cameras, and she mentioned Northpark - it was raining so they went there to take pictures. At first she was like, what a weird out-dated mall... then this place is so big... then she said something like "All Malls should be like that place. Plain and simple without all the stupid trendy-in-your-face flip/floppery and fake decorations, and totally first class; I've never been to a mall with real Art and had not heard of half the stores but they had good stuff I cant find in Atlanta." ---anecdote that's honest and objective.

People within a day's drive of Dallas shopping probably do not realize how good they have it.

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Butters
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Butters » 09 Nov 2017 21:14

Hate to burst your bubble but,

WHAT IS THE MUSEUM’S ANNUAL ATTENDANCE?
More than 385,000 people visit The Sixth Floor Museum on average every year.

Why can't you answer my question. Define visitor - another city, state, country.

Shopping is ALWAYS one of the top visitor attractions of any big city. It sounds like you don't appreciate how nice a center you have right in our backyard. Its always packed when I visit so I can easily see why it's listed #1.

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tanzoak
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby tanzoak » 09 Nov 2017 23:54

Butters wrote:Hate to burst your bubble but,

WHAT IS THE MUSEUM’S ANNUAL ATTENDANCE?
More than 385,000 people visit The Sixth Floor Museum on average every year.

Why can't you answer my question. Define visitor - another city, state, country.

Shopping is ALWAYS one of the top visitor attractions of any big city. It sounds like you don't appreciate how nice a center you have right in our backyard. Its always packed when I visit so I can easily see why it's listed #1.


When I think tourism, I think "from far enough away that they spend the night when coming here." Otherwise it's just like a long commute. Not a perfect definition that captures all nuance, but a good heuristic I think.

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flyswatter
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby flyswatter » 10 Nov 2017 07:39

You count every single person coming through the door of Northpark and ask where they are from, there's a pretty good chance they won't say "Dallas", so it will obviously have a higher number than Sixth Floor Museum. I just wouldn't call them tourists either, because they could just be coming from Richardson or Highland Park.

I think trying to compare a small museum to a giant shopping mall is an apples to oranges comparison anyways.

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tamtagon
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby tamtagon » 10 Nov 2017 08:15

I think there's a number of parameters used to determine visitor, pleasure tourist, business tourist whatever. The state fair attendance is around 3 million? what about convention center(s)? Generally, I think of visitation and tourism in relation to the metropolitan areas. Abilene, Waco, Sherman, Tyler --- visitor; Temple, Shreveport, Lufkin, OKC tourist. Like, if it takes more than two highway hours by car to reach LBJ that's a parameter for type of tourist, but still a tourist. Austin and San Antonio barely have shopping centers on scale with The Dallas Galleria; Houston Galleria and NorthPark both a rung or two up the latter.

Visiting for the shopping is in the same category as visiting for the Museum or Performance Art, business conference or trade show, athletic event.... I'm not really sure tourism to North Texas for pleasure --- to experience something rare or unusual or beautiful -- is much of a deal at all. The museums are good but immature, the riparian environment is ignorantly ignored but with potential to actually register on the same scale as the beach or mountains.

Whatever, I'm looking forward to the day NorthPark finishes the second level, adds a spa-resort hotel and begins planning a mixed use open air shopping area with office and condo towers.

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Matt777
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby Matt777 » 10 Nov 2017 09:05

Butters wrote:Hate to burst your bubble but,

WHAT IS THE MUSEUM’S ANNUAL ATTENDANCE?
More than 385,000 people visit The Sixth Floor Museum on average every year.

Why can't you answer my question. Define visitor - another city, state, country.

Shopping is ALWAYS one of the top visitor attractions of any big city. It sounds like you don't appreciate how nice a center you have right in our backyard. Its always packed when I visit so I can easily see why it's listed #1.


I knew that was the attendance numbers, I had already looked it up. What I am saying is that a high percentage of those people that go to the Sixth Floor Museum and Dealey Plaza are tourists, and not every visitor to Dealey Plaza also goes to the museum, and that I do not consider someone coming to NorthPark from Fort Worth to shop a "tourist." Not even really someone coming from OKC or even further to shop at NorthPark.... if the reason they came to town is just to shop. It's like how people coming here for business are not considered "tourists." People coming solely to shop should be considered in a different category than tourist. If not, we cannot focus on growing and improving our tourism sector if we do not define it correctly.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby The_Overdog » 10 Nov 2017 11:32

It's like how people coming here for business are not considered "tourists."


When I go places for business I consider myself a tourist. It's not like I'm businessing 24 hours a day. And the last time my local work group went downtown, we all went to the 6th Floor Museum for the first time even though several in the group were long time city of Dallas residents.

I guess I mean there really isn't much value in totally compartmentalizing all the different categories, and that 'tourists' from Plano are as good as tourists from Oklahoma City.

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 11 Nov 2017 16:02

The new MCM store is open and looks great. It really brightens up that spot.

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R1070
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Re: Northpark Center

Postby R1070 » 18 Nov 2017 19:54

Valentino is still open at NorthPark. Are they just planning to keep that location open through the holidays or longer?


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