Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Museum Tower

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Matt777
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Matt777 » 16 Dec 2017 00:54

JohnMcKee wrote:It's the Shelton and there is a good reason they are selling fairly well after an initial very rough start.

They just happen to be in HPISD but pay city of Dallas taxes, not many places you can buy for $400k in HPISD, much less fully updated and livable for someone in the market for a $400k house. Apparently there are a LOT of families in the building.

Also it wouldn't surprise me if there are a few people claiming their condo in The Shelton as their primary residence for the purposes of HPISD but happen to spend a lot more time at another house. Maybe not but it wouldn't surprise me.


No, I'm talking about something completely different, The Shelby: http://theshelbyresidences.com/

It was a typical stick built apartment complex on Greenville near Mockingbird which was recently converted to condos. Their website mentions that the last unit has been released for sale, so they sold very quickly. Average $/sqft was $326/sqft. $250-350/sqft is the sweet spot for mass market condos in Dallas, and nobody is building them. Nobody. I think there's one complex called Greenwood Flats and other than that it's all rental being built.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 19 Dec 2017 15:01

Matt777 wrote:
Tucy wrote:LOL. That's some funny stuff there. Is Candy auditioning to take over Museum Tower marketing?


I mean... she makes a fair point. These are $800/sqft residences, in a format that is not your usual Highland Park/Preston Hollow mansion style which has been the historical choice of home for the well-to-do. If someone opened up a neighborhood of 108 brand new $800/sqft single family residences in Dallas, all at once, how long would it take to sell out? I'm guessing at least a few years if not more. We shouldn't gauge the whole Dallas condo market from the sales figures of this one ultralux tower. If a 108 unit condo building opened up at $300-400/sqft, I think we would see faster sales.


FWIW, that $800/sq ft factoid is little more than an urban legend. (And your later claim that Museum Tower condos sold for double the price per square foot of the Ritz Carlton condos is even less factual.)

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 19 Dec 2017 16:40

Tucy wrote:
Matt777 wrote:
Tucy wrote:LOL. That's some funny stuff there. Is Candy auditioning to take over Museum Tower marketing?


I mean... she makes a fair point. These are $800/sqft residences, in a format that is not your usual Highland Park/Preston Hollow mansion style which has been the historical choice of home for the well-to-do. If someone opened up a neighborhood of 108 brand new $800/sqft single family residences in Dallas, all at once, how long would it take to sell out? I'm guessing at least a few years if not more. We shouldn't gauge the whole Dallas condo market from the sales figures of this one ultralux tower. If a 108 unit condo building opened up at $300-400/sqft, I think we would see faster sales.


FWIW, that $800/sq ft factoid is little more than an urban legend. (And your later claim that Museum Tower condos sold for double the price per square foot of the Ritz Carlton condos is even less factual.)


$776.75 is the current average price per square foot of the available units in MT, according to Realtor.com and Zillow. $776 is pretty darned close.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 10:53

Here are the listed Museum Tower units with their asking price per square foot (and remember, these are asking prices, not sale prices):

Unit 203: $602.79/sq ft
Unit 902: $657.32
Unit 1002: $664.68
Unit 2002: $749.92/sq ft (furnished)
Unit 3602: $827.64/sq ft
Penthouse (4201) $1952.89/sq ft

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Dallas_Uptown
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Dallas_Uptown » 20 Dec 2017 12:16

Tucy wrote:Here are the listed Museum Tower units with their asking price per square foot (and remember, these are asking prices, not sale prices):

Unit 203: $602.79/sq ft
Unit 902: $657.32
Unit 1002: $664.68
Unit 2002: $749.92/sq ft (furnished)
Unit 3602: $827.64/sq ft
Penthouse (4201) $1952.89/sq ft


For comparison...
Ritz Carlton listing:
Unit #1904 $912/sq ft

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 20 Dec 2017 12:31

Tucy wrote:Here are the listed Museum Tower units with their asking price per square foot (and remember, these are asking prices, not sale prices):

Unit 203: $602.79/sq ft
Unit 902: $657.32
Unit 1002: $664.68
Unit 2002: $749.92/sq ft (furnished)
Unit 3602: $827.64/sq ft
Penthouse (4201) $1952.89/sq ft


Looking at both Realtor and Zillow, there are quite a few more units shown (I counted 24 total, I believe), but yeah, the average price per sqft isn't far off from the $800 Candy mentioned.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 14:03

eburress wrote:
Tucy wrote:Here are the listed Museum Tower units with their asking price per square foot (and remember, these are asking prices, not sale prices):

Unit 203: $602.79/sq ft
Unit 902: $657.32
Unit 1002: $664.68
Unit 2002: $749.92/sq ft (furnished)
Unit 3602: $827.64/sq ft
Penthouse (4201) $1952.89/sq ft


Looking at both Realtor and Zillow, there are quite a few more units shown (I counted 24 total, I believe), but yeah, the average price per sqft isn't far off from the $800 Candy mentioned.


You can believe whatever makes you happy.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 14:21

Briggs Freeman (the official marketing partner of Museum Tower) has an additional never-sold unit (Unit 402) listed on their website, so I've added it to the list so we have a complete list of the publicly-available asking prices for units currently for sale:

Unit 203: $602.79/sq ft
Unit 402: $613.46/sq ft
Unit 902: $657.32/sq ft
Unit 1002: $664.68/sq ft
Unit 2002: $749.92/sq ft (furnished)
Unit 3602: $827.64/sq ft
Penthouse (4201) $1952.89/sq ft

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 20 Dec 2017 15:10

Tucy wrote:You can believe whatever makes you happy.


What are you talking about? Which part of this has anything to do with "belief?"

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 15:17

eburress wrote:
Tucy wrote:You can believe whatever makes you happy.


What are you talking about? Which part of this has anything to do with "belief?"


Your belief, contrary to the evidence, that Museum Tower residences are generally worth, or have sold for, $800/sq foot, or close to it.

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 20 Dec 2017 15:50

Tucy wrote:
eburress wrote:
Tucy wrote:You can believe whatever makes you happy.


What are you talking about? Which part of this has anything to do with "belief?"


Your belief, contrary to the evidence, that Museum Tower residences are generally worth, or have sold for, $800/sq foot, or close to it.


It's not about belief, it's just math. The current average price per square foot of all the available units is, like I said, $776. Just looking at the 7 units you listed, the average price per sqft is $867.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 16:00

eburress wrote:
Tucy wrote:
eburress wrote:
What are you talking about? Which part of this has anything to do with "belief?"


Your belief, contrary to the evidence, that Museum Tower residences are generally worth, or have sold for, $800/sq foot, or close to it.


It's not about belief, it's just math. The current average price per square foot of all the available units is, like I said, $776. Just looking at the 7 units you listed, the average price per sqft is $867.


You cannot seriously think that producing an "average" including the extreme outlier of the Penthouse price gives a meaningful result. Regarding your $776 average, I don't know where you see 24 available units on Zillow. It seems you misunderstand Zillow; other than the For Sale units, Zillow's prices are just estimates, and especially in Texas, not particularly reliable estimates. And again, if you included the outlier penthouse price, it's a meaningless result.

The average of the six non-penthouse units currently known to be listed is $685.97/sq ft (and that includes one that is being sold furnished).

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 20 Dec 2017 16:15

I was providing an objective, mathematical view of the currently available units. If you want to remove the penthouse in order to make your narrative work, that's up to you. My whole point though is that Candy's article wasn't far off, objectively speaking.

For what it's worth, I know what Zillow is and how it works. I referred to Zillow AND Realtor.com and again, there are more than 7 units currently listed.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 16:49

eburress wrote:I was providing an objective, mathematical view of the currently available units. If you want to remove the penthouse in order to make your narrative work, that's up to you. My whole point though is that Candy's article wasn't far off, objectively speaking.

For what it's worth, I know what Zillow is and how it works. I referred to Zillow AND Realtor.com and again, there are more than 7 units currently listed.


Objective, perhaps. But entirely useless. Surely you understand that including an extreme outlier when calculating an average (mean) such as this does not give you anything close to a usable result. The asking price for the penthouse, especially this penthouse has almost no relationship to the pricing of the rest of the building. To get a meaningful number in such a situation, you either have to throw out the outlier or perhaps use the Median, which in our situation would be $664.68 (not so surprisingly, quite close to the $685.97 mean calculated by excluding the outlier).

Please show me the 24 units (or more than 7; or 7) units listed on Zillow.

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 20 Dec 2017 18:50

It is what it is, a statistic used for marketing and/or "wow" purposes, but technically speaking, it's not far off.

Oh snap...I was wrong and you were right. Many of the realtor.com units are only showing the "zestimates" but aren't actually being listed. Averaging the zestimates though (as questionably accurate as those are) still gets you a number in the vicinity of $800/sqft.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 20 Dec 2017 19:09

eburress wrote:It is what it is, a statistic used for marketing and/or "wow" purposes, but technically speaking, it's not far off.

Oh snap...I was wrong and you were right. Many of the realtor.com units are only showing the "zestimates" but aren't actually being listed. Averaging the zestimates though (as questionably accurate as those are) still gets you a number in the vicinity of $800/sqft.


LOL Indeed, it is what it is -- a statistic intended to give a false impression.

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JohnMcKee
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby JohnMcKee » 20 Dec 2017 23:49

Plus penthouse aside high rise condos are incredibly difficult to comp building wide, first floor units sometimes get a premium, sometimes they take a big hit, a 2nd floor unit may take a bigger hit because a tree obstructed view, a 3rd or 4th might get a premium for a tree top view, lower floors or exposures might take a big hit for severely obstructed views where units above a certain height that may not have any relation to other exposures generally applicable floor premium get a premium for unobstructed views.

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eburress
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby eburress » 21 Dec 2017 00:24

Tucy wrote:
eburress wrote:It is what it is, a statistic used for marketing and/or "wow" purposes, but technically speaking, it's not far off.

Oh snap...I was wrong and you were right. Many of the realtor.com units are only showing the "zestimates" but aren't actually being listed. Averaging the zestimates though (as questionably accurate as those are) still gets you a number in the vicinity of $800/sqft.


LOL Indeed, it is what it is -- a statistic intended to give a false impression.


...but still, technically accurate. ;)

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 08 Jan 2018 12:51

December 2017

2 units sold.
90 sold in 5 years and 1 month. 25 remaining.

Sellout projection, based on the pace of sales thus far: 6 1/2 years.

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Jay9398
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Jay9398 » 08 Jan 2018 14:26

I know this thread sometimes veers toward the snarky and contentious, so let me start by saying this is just an honest question. I'm confused.

Tucy's updates total 115 units (90 sold, 25 remaining).

The Candy's dirt article that everyone enjoyed so much stated "Currently there are 108 homes, after legal combinations of units"

DCAD shows a total of 111 accounts at the location. 25 show as held by Museum Tower LP, which I assume would indicate the unsold units Tucy is referencing... But that would mean only 86 units have sold.

Can Tucy or anyone else in the know explain what I am missing here?

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 08 Jan 2018 16:12

Jay9398 wrote:I know this thread sometimes veers toward the snarky and contentious, so let me start by saying this is just an honest question. I'm confused.

Tucy's updates total 115 units (90 sold, 25 remaining).

The Candy's dirt article that everyone enjoyed so much stated "Currently there are 108 homes, after legal combinations of units"

DCAD shows a total of 111 accounts at the location. 25 show as held by Museum Tower LP, which I assume would indicate the unsold units Tucy is referencing... But that would mean only 86 units have sold.

Can Tucy or anyone else in the know explain what I am missing here?


There were originally 115 units shown on DCAD. When units are combined, the combined units then show up on DCAD as one unit.

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Jay9398
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Jay9398 » 10 Jan 2018 10:03

Tucy wrote:
There were originally 115 units shown on DCAD. When units are combined, the combined units then show up on DCAD as one unit.


Thanks. Are the combined units in your count of solds (90) or remaining (25)? How do you account for this in the sellout projection? If you can't tell/don't care, that's fine. I appreciate the regular updates; I'm just curious.

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Tucy
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Tucy » 14 Jan 2018 09:01

Jay9398 wrote:
Tucy wrote:
There were originally 115 units shown on DCAD. When units are combined, the combined units then show up on DCAD as one unit.


Thanks. Are the combined units in your count of solds (90) or remaining (25)? How do you account for this in the sellout projection? If you can't tell/don't care, that's fine. I appreciate the regular updates; I'm just curious.


Units are combined when sold, so they are included in the number sold. The numbers are not adjusted due to combinations. If someone buys two units and combines them, they buy two units, so there is no reason for any adjustment. Nor are the projections adjusted for combinations. The projections are a simple calculation of time to sell the remaining units assuming the same pace of sales.

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Jay9398
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Re: Museum Tower

Postby Jay9398 » 16 Jan 2018 09:10

Awesome, thanks for the explanation!


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