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Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 17 Apr 2017 18:23
by Tivo_Kenevil
...Ok I've never seen this sign before so don't hold your breath...

But I saw this today on the Bus..

The Spire Website shows phase 1 is a mixed use office building with retail. Which I think is old information...

Building Information:
21 Story Office Building
389,977 SF Office
18,604 SF Retail

http://www.spirerealty.com/dallas/#the-spire

Let's see if they're for real this time.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 17 Apr 2017 19:16
by joshua.dodd
I've been wondering about this project since it was announced--how many years has it now been? I hope we see some changes from the original renders and plans, if it does come to fruition. I'd like to see much taller buildings. At least 40 plus stories.

Image

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Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 18 Apr 2017 16:15
by Waldozer
Would 39 stories not do it for you?

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 18 Apr 2017 21:32
by ArtVandelay
I'm thinking this will happen during the next boom ala 2040s

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 18 Apr 2017 22:38
by willyk
The consolidation is impressive but other than that, this is not a very good site. It's the deadest corner of downtown, with no real connectivity to the action in KWP or EMC. It connects to the Arts District, but it's not in it so no cachet for that. I just can't see anyone getting excited about working or living in the one office or residential building that they might be able to finance in the current market.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 01:28
by DPatel304
willyk wrote:The consolidation is impressive but other than that, this is not a very good site. It's the deadest corner of downtown, with no real connectivity to the action in KWP or EMC. It connects to the Arts District, but it's not in it so no cachet for that. I just can't see anyone getting excited about working or living in the one office or residential building that they might be able to finance in the current market.


True, but Ross Ave seems to be heating up on either side of this development, so perhaps the fact that it's on Ross will be worth something someday. Probably not anytime soon.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 09:37
by muncien
This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would work wonders to create a viable neighborhood if done right.
Everything they've proposed so far is more suburban style that pretends to be urban, and will simply be a ghost town if ever built... Which it won't be because the last thing in demand here is high-density office space.
That's my take on it anyway... Time will tell.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 10:18
by lakewoodhobo
4997309677_e60e5aedd8_b.jpg


I never understood why Spire sold this parcel to DART in 2011. It was originally going to be the second phase of the Arts Apartments, then part of the Spire development until DART got involved. It makes no sense for DART to have it unless it was traded for the old track at San Jacinto and Hawkins (an abandoned street now) just south of this.

Now that DART has a VP of real estate and TOD development, there should be some real pressure on them to sell that huge parcel.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 10:35
by Tnexster
muncien wrote:This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would work wonders to create a viable neighborhood if done right.
Everything they've proposed so far is more suburban style that pretends to be urban, and will simply be a ghost town if ever built... Which it won't be because the last thing in demand here is high-density office space.
That's my take on it anyway... Time will tell.


Tend to agree, when looking this proposal over my personal belief is that the plan is totally flipped in the wrong direction. If it were heavy residential, hotel and retail space with the office piece taking a smaller role it might be more workable.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 10:38
by muncien
DART has quite a bit of property that they should probably offload. IMO, they should market many of the parking lots they built around the stations with a caveat that any development have a certain density and contain x amount of parking to be available commuters (paid or otherwise). That'll offload overhead, increase tax base, and draw more users with direct access to stations.

On a separate note... That Live Oak off-ramp from I-345 needs to be eliminated; like years ago. Access is already redundant with Good Latimer exit, and with a portion of Live Oak being abandoned for the future Pacific Park, it really has no relevance but takes up tons of useful land.

I know this doesn't sound directly related to Spire, but if that land were made available, it may provide an opportunity to improve connectivity to the South of Spire, which right now is almost completely impossible with the DART line being configured as it is.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 10:44
by joshua.dodd
This area needs something and bad. It's so desolate and empty with its parking lot wasteland. It looks, literally, the same as it did back when Robopcop was filmed. If you recall, the gas station scene was filmed in this area off Ross.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 10:46
by eburress
I feel like this is the spot in Downtown most needing of a minor league baseball stadium. Plop it down in the least desireable corner, right up against the freeway/rail line, and all the sudden people now have a reason to go there, it increases the value/likelihood of developing the remaining lots, Bryan HS has a lot more development potential, etc... E.g., the tallest of the Hall towers which is caddy corner from this lot, now has a great view of the field.

Please see my extremely rough diagram. :D

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Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 13:00
by Tivo_Kenevil
No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 14:01
by eburress
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.


As is, this project isn't happening.

Though there are plenty of examples of stadiums sparking inner city development (San Diego and Seattle off the top of my head), the point isn't that it needs to be a stadium but that there needs to be something to draw development to this isolated, undesirable corner of Downtown. Replace the stadium with an outdoor performance venue or whatever other fun stuff folks prefer and my point remains.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 15:28
by Tivo_Kenevil
eburress wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.


As is, this project isn't happening.

Though there are plenty of examples of stadiums sparking inner city development (San Diego and Seattle off the top of my head), the point isn't that it needs to be a stadium but that there needs to be something to draw development to this isolated, undesirable corner of Downtown. Replace the stadium with an outdoor performance venue or whatever other fun stuff folks prefer and my point remains.


Let's hope that the "something" will be more residential than anything else then.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 15:48
by NdoorTX
muncien wrote:This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would create a viabneighborhood if done right.


I couldn't agree more! This has been my thought for a while.
(same w/ Midtown Dallas) I'm thinking no less than 8 floors & up to whatever. Priced & targeted to buyers/ renters of places like The Beat in the Cedars. With current construction levels- I'm surprised two 18-25 level towers aren't already here. Along w/ green space & community retail. Anyone here have insight on why Spire insists on office? Is that there forte or is it overall lack of experience & knowledge of markets?

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 15:53
by Cbdallas
Office and retail are shrinking due to technology living space is not. More people are flex working from inside their living space and using the new communal flex office spaces. This area could be a great place to live and work all while being near access to DART rail.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 16:24
by Tnexster
Cbdallas wrote:Office and retail are shrinking due to technology living space is not. More people are flex working from inside their living space and using the new communal flex office spaces. This area could be a great place to live and work all while being near access to DART rail.


This is the kind of modern development they should be looking at planning and not something so office-centric.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 19 Apr 2017 19:42
by tamtagon
Really too bad there's not a cooperative to redo the backside of Plaza of America so both share a promenade between train station and Arts District.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 20 Apr 2017 09:18
by cowboyeagle05
NdoorTX wrote:
muncien wrote:This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would create a viabneighborhood if done right.


I couldn't agree more! This has been my thought for a while.
(same w/ Midtown Dallas) I'm thinking no less than 8 floors & up to whatever. Priced & targeted to buyers/ renters of places like The Beat in the Cedars. With current construction levels- I'm surprised two 18-25 level towers aren't already here. Along w/ green space & community retail. Anyone here have insight on why Spire insists on office? Is that there forte or is it overall lack of experience & knowledge of markets?



All you have to do is look at Spires track record. They are relatively new and wanted to be the new "Trammel Crow" of development. For them, office with some retail thrown in for retaining office tenants is there MO. This was their first attempt, best I can tell at a massive development and since office space is their business the residential was always just there so they could include the mixed-use/Live,Work,Play on their marketing pamphlets. They def seem to be sitting on things at this point waiting on a magical day for either a sale or relaunching a revisioned project while Hall launches a condo-hotel tower while building new office space in Frisco.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 09 Jan 2018 21:44
by Jasimm
Are these the same renderings from when this was first announced years ago ? I feel like they have been updated in building design...


http://www.spirerealty.com/wp-content/t ... s_2015.pdf

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 00:18
by Tivo_Kenevil
These are new... Better than before. My only complaint is that parking. There's literally a Honda CR-V on the rendering parked next to the door..like right next to it. WTF.... Visitor parking, in front of building.. What is this a retail strip mall?..

why can't these developers just reserve the street curb during business hours?..they own the whole block having complete street parking around their buildings is a viable solution for visitors.... horrible design.

why not put a drive thru and and parking in front of their buildings while you're at it ... I'm wondering if they'll improve the walk-ability in the area..

Anyhow no worries, I have zero faith in them. They literally do nothing every time. Yawn.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 02:45
by jrd1964
Dumb question: Would the Spire be considered a viable Amazon2 candidate (urban, near freeways, near transit, near arts) or would the project even be so lucky? Landing a plum like Amazon would certainly get the Spirers out of the can-we-launch-this-project-or-not doldrums they've been in up to now.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 07:50
by eburress
I think it's every bit as valid/viable, if not more so, than some of the other potential HQ2 destinations. The Hillwood proposal, for example, was pretty spread out across Victory and into Downtown proper. That's not the case with the Spire site.

On the other hand, the Spire folks don't appear to be very good at marketing and/or executing on development projects, so it's probably all moot.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 08:18
by cowboyeagle05
Its the same renderings just with a few more detail shots thrown in. They also updated the website when the Amazon proposals started to make the development proposal look fresher. I am sure they are one of the thousands of proposals DFW submitted to Amazon. Keep in mind this developer is proposing an office complex and uses the mixed-use stuff as bait. Not many developers really want to do mixed-use because it requires so much more to pull off. Commercial office leasing, retail leasing, retail mix, residential leasing contracts to handle all those areas you as a developer don't usually do.

Spire is a minor player trying to become a Trammel Crow kinda player. Spire is not a KDC which can build these types of development in their sleep at this point. They are not a Trammel Crow who can walk into City Hall and get their coffee exactly how they like it when they walk in the door. Spire has aspirations and they don't have the swag that can get them a tenant without having to prove themselves. I still think Spire will end up selling off the land in pieces so some other big developers don't get to steal their thunder.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 11:20
by lakewoodhobo
cowboyeagle05 wrote:I still think Spire will end up selling off the land in pieces so some other big developers don't get to steal their thunder.


They could start by approaching DART, which they already have a relationship with. If DART would actively market 1401 Pacific for sale, they could potentially build a new HQ here with easy access to Pearl Station. DART could also sell their nearby lot at Ross and Routh to fund construction.

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 11:48
by exelone31
For those curious, I was able to find one of the original renderings for this project too.

pyramid.jpg

Re: Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

Posted: 10 Jan 2018 12:05
by muncien
^^^^
HA! Bravo...