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DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Jun 2019 11:23

The Farmers Market is finally being surrounded by residential development that will help sustain it. Before it was surrounded by warehouses that while useful to the produce suppliers did nothing to help the Farmers Market grow a sustainable business.

willyk
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby willyk » 22 Jun 2019 23:02

willyk wrote:Just noticed that columns and a crane are up for what appears to be a new apartment project on S Harwood just south of the Amelia, occupying the site between Harvest Lofts and The Bridge.

Was there ever an announcement or renders?

There is so much nice, low key, residential around the Farmers Market now—it reminds me of how State Thomas grew organically for many years before Uptown happened.


Still hoping someone has info about this project...

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DBadger
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DBadger » 24 Jun 2019 09:35

I thought this location had an announcement for a 55+ development.
I thought it was going to be 7 or 8 story structure, assuming this is the same location.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby lakewoodhobo » 02 Jul 2019 10:27

Went to Mudhen for dinner on Saturday and the place was pretty dead, enough that it wouldn't surprise me if they closed soon. Food and service were both great and relatively affordable, so I'm a little confused about why it isn't doing well.

You'd think that a huge reason for moving to this area is being able to walk to a decent restaurant, but I guess not.

DPatel304
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 02 Jul 2019 10:34

lakewoodhobo wrote:Went to Mudhen for dinner on Saturday and the place was pretty dead, enough that it wouldn't surprise me if they closed soon. Food and service were both great and relatively affordable, so I'm a little confused about why it isn't doing well.

You'd think that a huge reason for moving to this area is being able to walk to a decent restaurant, but I guess not.


I went to the Farmer's Market once for dinner on a Friday evening and while it wasn't dead, it wasn't nearly as lively as it normally is. This didn't really surprise me, as it seems like this area is more of a destination for people to commute to during the day (especially when the weather is nice).

You bring up a good point though. Long term this area will have to do more to attract more people at all times of day, rather than just mornings and afternoons. I'm sure as the East Quarter develops, you'll have more people in the area and more things to do nearby.

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emmasensei
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby emmasensei » 02 Jul 2019 12:04

I've been to Mudhen a couple of times, usually for brunch, and while I love the space and surrounding area--I really WANT to love Mudhen--the food itself is really uneven. Twice, I've had dishes that were missing a couple of key ingredients explicitly called out in the menu description. Like...once I got a shrimp, beet, arugula, and avocado salad, and it was missing both beets and avocados, and when I inquired, they told me they were out. A Texas restaurant--a fruit and veg-forward restaurant, at that--out of avocados at brunch?! Bizarre.

There may be several reasons for the empty dining room.

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DBadger
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DBadger » 02 Jul 2019 12:28

Its also huge footprint-wise. It feels it should be 3 restaurants not one.
Maybe Mudhen would be part of a multiple concept set-up. That may be a problem with the kitchen tho.

Tnexster
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Tnexster » 07 Jul 2019 15:55

When this Anglican bishop saw the Dallas skyline, he heard God's voice

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... gods-voice

We decided to keep the building the way it was; it's an old car dealership, built back in '24. So it's about 100 years old. And there was nothing in it, I mean nothing. So, no electricity, no sprinkler system, no HVAC or anything. So we started from scratch and decided to keep the building so it stays within the architecture of downtown, keep that look, but contemporize it to a degree by adding windows and bring in lots of light, put in new windows. And also some greenery, some trees that are inside the church. Where the showroom was is this terrazzo floor, but that's going to be where we're going to worship. That's our sanctuary.


https://allsaintschurchdallas.org/parki ... 1-s-ervay/

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maconahey
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby maconahey » 30 Aug 2019 17:13

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willyk
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby willyk » 30 Aug 2019 21:54

With so many people living here now, why aren’t there more neighborhood bars and restaurants?

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 31 Aug 2019 11:40

It is still the bottom edge of development though. The number of rooftops is certainly better than it used to be but a lot of places like to be surrounded by other successful neighborhoods. Uptown alone isn't a success by itself unless Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Downtown, East Dallas, Design District etc are moving up as well. The Farmers Market is the very edge of progressive development and is surrounded on two sides by less than populated areas. Sure South Side isn't too far and Farmers Market is somewhat connected to the successful parts of the CBD and Deep Ellum is finally getting some rooftops as well but it takes more than a few hundred units in one neighborhood to make neighborhood-oriented bars and restaurants work.

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tamtagon
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby tamtagon » 31 Aug 2019 12:02

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the point of a farmer's market to be a place where people buy stuff and prepare it at home?

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muncien
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby muncien » 03 Sep 2019 09:21

tamtagon wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the point of a farmer's market to be a place where people buy stuff and prepare it at home?


There was once a time when a plethora of vegetables could be aquired at the 'Farmers' Market. :?
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

DPatel304
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 03 Sep 2019 09:30

tamtagon wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the point of a farmer's market to be a place where people buy stuff and prepare it at home?


It is, but the Dallas Farmer's Market has evolved so much over the years that it is no longer a Farmer's Market any more. It's more of a food/market hall and a district within the CBD with residential and retail. We call it the Farmer's Market, but it's far from an actual Farmer's Market.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 03 Sep 2019 09:38

It's closer to an actual Farmers Market than it ever was before. Previously it was a place to buy produce from fake farmers resold for a premium price out of the back of refrigerated 18 wheelers from oversea deliveries. New management now limits produce from actual local farmers and every weekend its much better market than it ever was.

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Kelley USA
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Kelley USA » 03 Sep 2019 12:26

I would also add that farmer's markets have really evolved over the past 5 years. It's a trendy thing that pretty much every city and or mixed-use development has jumped on. You can find multiple farmer's markets in just about every town on any given Saturday. Growing up and heading to the Dallas Farmer's Market as a kid or with my girlfriend in high school use to be a unique experience. Not so anymore!

DPatel304
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 03 Sep 2019 12:52

cowboyeagle05 wrote:It's closer to an actual Farmers Market than it ever was before. Previously it was a place to buy produce from fake farmers resold for a premium price out of the back of refrigerated 18 wheelers from oversea deliveries. New management now limits produce from actual local farmers and every weekend its much better market than it ever was.


You're right. I was referring more to the fact that when we refer to the Farmer's Market, we are referring to this entire part of the CBD, and not just the handful of produce vendors within the Shed. This expanded Farmer's Market has residential, retail, restaurants, and a volleyball court/soccer field.

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muncien
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby muncien » 03 Sep 2019 13:12

I will have to check out the Farmers Market again. I used to go every two weeks or so. But with the transition, there were days when there wasn't a single produce vendor available. After about six months of extremely limited produce, I finally gave up. I did enjoy the shed and other vendors, but a healthy variety of vegitables was always needed.
It has been two years since I have been there... Perhaps they have finally gotten it together and I should give it another try.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

willyk
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby willyk » 03 Sep 2019 15:44

I still think the Farmers Market has sufficient mass to support a few local bars and restaurants. Look at how much stuff is in the Design District. Many more people live in the Farmers Market than live over there.

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Jbarn
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Jbarn » 03 Sep 2019 17:14

muncien wrote:I will have to check out the Farmers Market again. I used to go every two weeks or so. But with the transition, there were days when there wasn't a single produce vendor available. After about six months of extremely limited produce, I finally gave up. I did enjoy the shed and other vendors, but a healthy variety of vegitables was always needed.
It has been two years since I have been there... Perhaps they have finally gotten it together and I should give it another try.


It is still the same. Very limited amount of produce. It is not technically a farmers market anymore. I understand that they want to keep it to just farmers and no more dealers, but apparently the farmers prefer selling at all the other farmers markets around the metroplex. Not sure if they were priced out of the Dallas farmers market or what.

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 04 Sep 2019 11:56

Jbarn wrote:
muncien wrote:I will have to check out the Farmers Market again. I used to go every two weeks or so. But with the transition, there were days when there wasn't a single produce vendor available. After about six months of extremely limited produce, I finally gave up. I did enjoy the shed and other vendors, but a healthy variety of vegitables was always needed.
It has been two years since I have been there... Perhaps they have finally gotten it together and I should give it another try.


It is still the same. Very limited amount of produce. It is not technically a farmers market anymore. I understand that they want to keep it to just farmers and no more dealers, but apparently the farmers prefer selling at all the other farmers markets around the metroplex. Not sure if they were priced out of the Dallas farmers market or what.


It's pretty clear their produce strategy has failed (as I predicted) and has had plenty of time to grow into what they were targeting. It's not working and needs to be nixed. The produce market was useful before. I say give primary farmers good spots up front or something, and give them first priority when it comes to space, but let the rest fill up with dealers who are marketing Texas produce.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Sep 2019 13:04

No going back and it wasn't working before either the market was a failure before. It was being propped up heavily by the city for produce dealers to make some extra bucks selling re-sold produce. The Food hall combo with produce was a logical way forward. Going back isn't an option. AT least when it operated before the city owned the land so taxes were lower now its a private business that actually has to make a profit to stay open. There was no point trying to sell out of season produce and market it as a Farmers Market with no AC etc. Why go there when I can get the same processed produce at Walmart on 75 and at least accept the bad customer service for what it is inside an air-conditioned space.

Question...who said it was a failure? Everyone I see calling it a failure online are those who prefer the old way sure. Change is hard but I have yet to hear the Market is having any real issues besides a here and there commentary from those still upset things have changed. Also, more residential units are being built every day around it. Let's take into account that the Farmers Market is located on the southern edge of all upwardly moving development in central Dallas. Deep Ellum is finally adding rooftops, East Quarter, and the occasional Cedars residential project. Most other Dallas Farmers Markets are temporary setups in parking lots in more economic stable areas that disappear most of the year with no cost to maintenance during dark hours.

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The_Overdog
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby The_Overdog » 04 Sep 2019 13:12

I don't find the Dallas Farmer's market that different than any other 'farmers market', which have a few produce booths, a few craft booths, prepared food booths, and lots of mess. I think that's just what 'farmers markets' are now.

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DallasMan
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DallasMan » 04 Sep 2019 13:49

We have been eating fresh, local produce from the Farmers Market all summer. The couple with the farm in Jacksonville, TX has our favorite vegetables, especially their tomatoes. They also sell "seconds" (bruised tomatoes that you can use for sauce), which is cool.

We buy all our lamb, pork, and most of our eggs there, too (JuHa and Bois D'arc). We don't mind the crowds and the other vendors - who doesn't like an occasional bratwurst or gluten-free donut while shopping for produce?

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vman
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby vman » 04 Sep 2019 15:44

Well all I know is the Dallas Farmers Market has now become my top place in DFW to spend a lazy weekend afternoon, especially if the weather is really nice. My very first apartment downtown was Camden Farmers Market about 2003. I'm blown away when I visit the area now.

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 11:12

I'm not saying the new stuff isn't good, it is, but when I've been it's hard to get some basic items. I might be able to buy some local onions, but not the tomatoes I need for the same dish I want to create, for hypothetical example. Yes, keep the new stuff but for God's sake you should be able to get all the basic fruits and vegetables at a Farmer's Market.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Sep 2019 11:30

Matt777 wrote:I'm not saying the new stuff isn't good, it is, but when I've been it's hard to get some basic items. I might be able to buy some local onions, but not the tomatoes I need for the same dish I want to create, for hypothetical example. Yes, keep the new stuff but for God's sake you should be able to get all the basic fruits and vegetables at a Farmer's Market.


That's valid, but I think we have to accept that the intent of this district is not to be a Farmer's Market first and foremost. I know it used to be a Farmer's Market, and I know the area is called the Farmer's Market, but produce aspect of it all took a backseat years ago. Now it's simply a district in Downtown that happens to sell produce, but also does other things really well.

I suppose it's a bit of a cop out, but, judging by the changes made to the area, it seems clear to me that selling produce is a very low priority for the area, and I fully support this decision. I support it because, at the end of the day, this area has been a huge success (as a district, not as a Farmer's Market), which is quite rare for Downtown Dallas. Basically, I'm saying that maybe we need to re-adjust our expectations for the area, IMO.

I do hope that, as Downtown continues to grow and there are more feet on the streets, that maybe we can eventually support more produce being sold. For now, it seems the demand simply isn't there, so this is the best we'll get.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby lakewoodhobo » 05 Sep 2019 11:52

I'm more concerned with losing Ruibal's to an apartment developer, to be honest. That store generates a lot of foot traffic and is so emblematic of the district that it's hard to imagine the Farmers Market without it.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby vman » 05 Sep 2019 12:16

lakewoodhobo wrote:I'm more concerned with losing Ruibal's to an apartment developer, to be honest. That store generates a lot of foot traffic and is so emblematic of the district that it's hard to imagine the Farmers Market without it.

I did notice a couple of weeks ago that the gated parking lot directly north of Ruibal's ,usually open for free Farmers Market parking, was closed. It made me wonder if some sort of development is pending there.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby muncien » 05 Sep 2019 13:33

I do love what the 'Farmers' Market has become. What was once a nasty little corner of downtown that you happened to be able to find a massive assortment of veggies a basement prices, is now an awesome little area with half million dollar townhomes, fancy little vendors, a place to grab a beer and some great food.
I have no issue with all of those things, and I'll take that over what it was five years ago. My only issue is that I didn't see how one use must preclude the other. They aren't competing with eachother by any means. Now, if indeed the previous wholesalers were there only because they were subsidized by the city, then I get it... we shouldn't be doing that. But if on the other hand, we simply told them they weren't allowed anymore because we only wanted local stuff, and there simply aren't enough 'local farmers' to make it a market, I think that is something that should be reconsidered.
I may be talking out of my butt as I hadn't been in a while, but it sure would be great to be able to get the best of both worlds. I'd love nothing more than to chill with a beer while my lady (vegitarian) grazes through a well supplied market of veggies. Also, comparing the veggies that used to be offerred to Walmart or Kroger is just not true. Perhaps that's where they eventually made it, but what was offered at the market was way better than either of those places, and much cheaper as well.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 13:46

DPatel304 wrote:
Matt777 wrote:I'm not saying the new stuff isn't good, it is, but when I've been it's hard to get some basic items. I might be able to buy some local onions, but not the tomatoes I need for the same dish I want to create, for hypothetical example. Yes, keep the new stuff but for God's sake you should be able to get all the basic fruits and vegetables at a Farmer's Market.


That's valid, but I think we have to accept that the intent of this district is not to be a Farmer's Market first and foremost. I know it used to be a Farmer's Market, and I know the area is called the Farmer's Market, but produce aspect of it all took a backseat years ago. Now it's simply a district in Downtown that happens to sell produce, but also does other things really well.

I suppose it's a bit of a cop out, but, judging by the changes made to the area, it seems clear to me that selling produce is a very low priority for the area, and I fully support this decision. I support it because, at the end of the day, this area has been a huge success (as a district, not as a Farmer's Market), which is quite rare for Downtown Dallas. Basically, I'm saying that maybe we need to re-adjust our expectations for the area, IMO.

I do hope that, as Downtown continues to grow and there are more feet on the streets, that maybe we can eventually support more produce being sold. For now, it seems the demand simply isn't there, so this is the best we'll get.


I think the problem, like many things in Dallas, is the acceptance of mediocrity. The belief that "we have a Farmer's Market and should be grateful" is better than "we have a really good farmers market that serves it's basic purpose AND provides something extra." If we don't expect more, we won't get more. Not in Dallas.

The produce offered before was way better quality and cheaper than what you get in a grocery store. You could even haggle with most vendors or work out a bulk deal. No, it wasn't "artisinal" and not all of it came from a 50 mile radius, but there was a lot of Texas produce there. It was a beautiful, colorful, vibrant display. I love South Texas citrus and you used to be able to get it there for very cheap. It's hard to find it in Kroger or Tom Thumb. It wasn't fancy but it felt like a real urban produce market, with people hawking their wares. Of course, being Dallas, I guess people here think an 80% empty shed with a couple local honey vendors and 3 onions for $9 each is better than the "low class" version that existed before.

Don't forget, all that development started kicking off when the old version was still alive and kicking.

We need the basics and the fancy for it to be a true destination, useful to both Downtown residents and people driving in from other areas.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Sep 2019 13:59

Matt777 wrote:I think the problem, like many things in Dallas, is the acceptance of mediocrity. The belief that "we have a Farmer's Market and should be grateful" is better than "we have a really good farmers market that serves it's basic purpose AND provides something extra." If we don't expect more, we won't get more. Not in Dallas.

The produce offered before was way better quality and cheaper than what you get in a grocery store. You could even haggle with most vendors or work out a bulk deal. No, it wasn't "artisinal" and not all of it came from a 50 mile radius, but there was a lot of Texas produce there. It was a beautiful, colorful, vibrant display. I love South Texas citrus and you used to be able to get it there for very cheap. It's hard to find it in Kroger or Tom Thumb. It wasn't fancy but it felt like a real urban produce market, with people hawking their wares. Of course, being Dallas, I guess people here think an 80% empty shed with a couple local honey vendors and 3 onions for $9 each is better than the "low class" version that existed before.

Don't forget, all that development started kicking off when the old version was still alive and kicking.

We need the basics and the fancy for it to be a true destination, useful to both Downtown residents and people driving in from other areas.


I wouldn't say I'm accepting mediocrity. I just don't want to see the Farmer's Market selling produce just for the sake of selling produce if it's not economically feasible. That's just not sustainable. What I would rather see is to see the area become a success first (which they are well on their way to doing), and then start selling more produce when the econimics make sense. I want it to be a legimate farmer's market just like everyone else here, but I think, first and foremost, there needs to be enough people willing to buy the produce before they start selling it.

I'll be honest, I don't know the specifics as to why more people are selling produce, but I assume it just basically comes down to the fact that there isn't enough money to be made, which is fine and understandable. If that's the case, let's address that problem first, and the produce will naturally start to come back once it makes sense.

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 14:53

DPatel304 wrote:
Matt777 wrote:I think the problem, like many things in Dallas, is the acceptance of mediocrity. The belief that "we have a Farmer's Market and should be grateful" is better than "we have a really good farmers market that serves it's basic purpose AND provides something extra." If we don't expect more, we won't get more. Not in Dallas.

The produce offered before was way better quality and cheaper than what you get in a grocery store. You could even haggle with most vendors or work out a bulk deal. No, it wasn't "artisinal" and not all of it came from a 50 mile radius, but there was a lot of Texas produce there. It was a beautiful, colorful, vibrant display. I love South Texas citrus and you used to be able to get it there for very cheap. It's hard to find it in Kroger or Tom Thumb. It wasn't fancy but it felt like a real urban produce market, with people hawking their wares. Of course, being Dallas, I guess people here think an 80% empty shed with a couple local honey vendors and 3 onions for $9 each is better than the "low class" version that existed before.

Don't forget, all that development started kicking off when the old version was still alive and kicking.

We need the basics and the fancy for it to be a true destination, useful to both Downtown residents and people driving in from other areas.


I wouldn't say I'm accepting mediocrity. I just don't want to see the Farmer's Market selling produce just for the sake of selling produce if it's not economically feasible. That's just not sustainable. What I would rather see is to see the area become a success first (which they are well on their way to doing), and then start selling more produce when the econimics make sense. I want it to be a legimate farmer's market just like everyone else here, but I think, first and foremost, there needs to be enough people willing to buy the produce before they start selling it.

I'll be honest, I don't know the specifics as to why more people are selling produce, but I assume it just basically comes down to the fact that there isn't enough money to be made, which is fine and understandable. If that's the case, let's address that problem first, and the produce will naturally start to come back once it makes sense.


What isn't economically feasible about letting non-grower vendors sell produce, especially if the space is going to stay empty and draw maintenance dollars from city coffers without stall rental revenue to offset it? Let local growers or farmers put up a sign denoting them as such, give them first dibs on rentals, but fill the dang shed with produce to be bought.

Markets around the world, around our own country, feature a mix of grower/sellers and people who just sell produce for a living. They may not have planted and watered that tomato but they sure do know a thing about tomatoes.

I'm sorry, the new facilities at the Farmer's Market are much nicer, and the indoor food hall is great, but as a "Farmer's Market" it's a pretty lame excuse. I have taken visitors from out of town and the response is a big meh. Comments are that it's not really a Farmer's Market. It's a food hall, next to a shed that used to be a Farmer's Market and now has a tiny handful of vendors only during peak hours.....

I would love if local vendors were flooding in to sell local produce at reliable hours of the week here. They aren't. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 15:09

Memories of the old market circa 2010-2015..... pics courtesy of Yelp. Dallas made sure it killed it like anything else that wasn't bougie and attracted anyone who doesn't have thousands of dollars in disposable income to spend every weekend. Sucks that many of these vendors got put out of jobs so we could say we only sell microgreens grown within 2 miles of the market:

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AND...... for comparison, the joyous market we have now (on a busy day, mind you). Look at all that lovely produce! I think I see 3 ounces of arugula and one potato! PRAISED BE!!!!


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DPatel304
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Sep 2019 15:26

Matt777 wrote:What isn't economically feasible about letting non-grower vendors sell produce, especially if the space is going to stay empty and draw maintenance dollars from city coffers without stall rental revenue to offset it? Let local growers or farmers put up a sign denoting them as such, give them first dibs on rentals, but fill the dang shed with produce to be bought.


I couldn't tell you. My post wasn't really about the economics of grower vs non-grower vendors, my post was more about why there aren't more grower vendors in general, and that's simply because the demand isn't there. I don't know much about why the city chose to not allow non-grower vendors, so I didn't really want to comment on that aspect.

Matt777 wrote:Markets around the world, around our own country, feature a mix of grower/sellers and people who just sell produce for a living. They may not have planted and watered that tomato but they sure do know a thing about tomatoes.

I'm sorry, the new facilities at the Farmer's Market are much nicer, and the indoor food hall is great, but as a "Farmer's Market" it's a pretty lame excuse. I have taken visitors from out of town and the response is a big meh. Comments are that it's not really a Farmer's Market. It's a food hall, next to a shed that used to be a Farmer's Market and now has a tiny handful of vendors only during peak hours.....

I would love if local vendors were flooding in to sell local produce at reliable hours of the week here. They aren't. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.


That's the other part of my point right there. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see the issue with it being a food hall, and it seems like people are (understandly) hung up on the fact that the district still calls itself the Farmer's Market. It would be one thing if they actually designed and intended for it to sell produce and it failed at that, but, to me, it just seems like they went a completely different route and made it more of a food hall with the produce taking a back seat.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Sep 2019 15:28

Thanks for the pictures, Matt. I'll be honest, I don't remember much about the old Farmer's Market, so maybe I'm not really the right person to be chiming in on the subject. But now I'm curious as to the history behind this area, and what lead to the change in direction? I assumed it was similar to a lot of things in Dallas where it was on the decline and so a pivot in direction was needed to make it successful again (similar to Deep Ellum).

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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 15:37

DPatel304 wrote:
That's the other part of my point right there. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see the issue with it being a food hall, and it seems like people are (understandly) hung up on the fact that the district still calls itself the Farmer's Market. It would be one thing if they actually designed and intended for it to sell produce and it failed at that, but, to me, it just seems like they went a completely different route and made it more of a food hall with the produce taking a back seat.


I don't think it failed. It was busy, lively, and popular. It was costing the city money because the facility required a lot of maintenance and I think they thought they could do better financially if they turned the sheds "upscale" and kicked out the vendors, mostly Latino, who used to be the lifeblood of the busy market. It used to serve both local populations and restaurant owners who could go buy in bulk. It felt like a part of Dallas that was actually part of a real city. Reminded me of the wet markets from when I lived in Hong Kong, except you heard Spanish instead of Cantonese.

But, this is Dallas, and as you can see from the posts from people above who prefer the new market, people wanted to millennialize it (and I'm a millennial), and destroy any character because we don't like character in Dallas.

Some people out there thought that letting the vendors operate there hurt local farmers and prevented them from being able to compete. Well, the vendors have been gone for years, where are these abused farmers that we needed to protect by destroying the market?

The market did need critical and costly refurbishment. But it would have needed that whether we had local artisans or produce hawkers filling the sheds. The maintenance costs were used as ammo when they really had little to do with the bigger issue.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby muncien » 05 Sep 2019 15:58

Oh man... Great pics Matt. Those were the days I remember... Miss that.

I dig all the new stuff too... But, there is more than enough room to get an actual veggie shed in play (minus the drive-thru of course).
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Sep 2019 16:43

Matt777 wrote:I don't think it failed. It was busy, lively, and popular. It was costing the city money because the facility required a lot of maintenance and I think they thought they could do better financially if they turned the sheds "upscale" and kicked out the vendors, mostly Latino, who used to be the lifeblood of the busy market. It used to serve both local populations and restaurant owners who could go buy in bulk. It felt like a part of Dallas that was actually part of a real city. Reminded me of the wet markets from when I lived in Hong Kong, except you heard Spanish instead of Cantonese.

But, this is Dallas, and as you can see from the posts from people above who prefer the new market, people wanted to millennialize it (and I'm a millennial), and destroy any character because we don't like character in Dallas.

Some people out there thought that letting the vendors operate there hurt local farmers and prevented them from being able to compete. Well, the vendors have been gone for years, where are these abused farmers that we needed to protect by destroying the market?

The market did need critical and costly refurbishment. But it would have needed that whether we had local artisans or produce hawkers filling the sheds. The maintenance costs were used as ammo when they really had little to do with the bigger issue.


Thanks for the insight! Sounds like this issue is a bit more complicated than I originally thought. While I agree that Dallas doesn't like character, we generally tend to get rid of character for the sake of profit. It seems that's the official story with the Farmer's Market as well.

Are there positives that came out of this change? Is it livelier now? More profitable? Based on what I'm seeing, it does appear to be more urban in design, but, having not visited the old Farmer's Market, I can't say for sure. I do like the current Farmer's Market, but, like I said, I was under the impression that the old one was basically failing and needed a big revamp.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 05 Sep 2019 18:11

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
That's the other part of my point right there. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see the issue with it being a food hall, and it seems like people are (understandly) hung up on the fact that the district still calls itself the Farmer's Market. It would be one thing if they actually designed and intended for it to sell produce and it failed at that, but, to me, it just seems like they went a completely different route and made it more of a food hall with the produce taking a back seat.


I don't think it failed. It was busy, lively, and popular. It was costing the city money because the facility required a lot of maintenance and I think they thought they could do better financially if they turned the sheds "upscale" and kicked out the vendors, mostly Latino, who used to be the lifeblood of the busy market. It used to serve both local populations and restaurant owners who could go buy in bulk. It felt like a part of Dallas that was actually part of a real city. Reminded me of the wet markets from when I lived in Hong Kong, except you heard Spanish instead of Cantonese.

But, this is Dallas, and as you can see from the posts from people above who prefer the new market, people wanted to millennialize it (and I'm a millennial), and destroy any character because we don't like character in Dallas.

Some people out there thought that letting the vendors operate there hurt local farmers and prevented them from being able to compete. Well, the vendors have been gone for years, where are these abused farmers that we needed to protect by destroying the market?

The market did need critical and costly refurbishment. But it would have needed that whether we had local artisans or produce hawkers filling the sheds. The maintenance costs were used as ammo when they really had little to do with the bigger issue.


That is certainly a rosy romantic look at the old farmers market if I have ever heard. Then again we both know we aren't going to agree on its former history. I worked in the Dallas restaurant scene back when the city still owned it and went to culinary school at El Centro so I had experience with its former operations and ties to the restaurant industry.

Long term families did sell produce all year long and made a living there selling produce they bought off the back of 18 wheeler deliveries that came from all over the country. In fact, the Farmers Market used to be a federally approved delivery market where trucks would come in late nights unload and let people bid on pallets of processed produce the kind of stuff shipped in from places where some produce grows offseason to supply grocery stores. Grocery buyers would come late at night and purchase as well as other types of businesses.

The problem is farmers markets are usually about in-season items aka things you are only able to buy certain times of the year. The disagreement about the Dallas Farmers Market is a philosophy on food ecology in that many people want it to be Kroger/Walmart/Target/Tom Thumb with all the same stuff all the time no matter Fall Winter Spring Summer but also buy into the whole romanticism about buying from local farmers markets. You can't have both ideals work so seamlessly. Grocery stores lie to consumers faces and of course, succeed cause for decades we have been offered so much no matter what day of the year it is. As a society we no longer understand that some recipes some foods you just don't have until certain times of the year and there is a good ecological reason for that. Our culture is one where most consumers don't understand where their food comes from and they have been told not to care. There is no point selling the same produce Walmart sells better in a substandard destination.

The current version at least tries to support the real farmers and focus on the actual reason Farmers Markets exist in the first place to buy goods and services from people who actually know the products they grow or make during the times of the year they are likely to be available. Resellers who previously operated there just slapped their own tax on what they sold and made some money doing what Walmart does. It doesn't make them bad people just a business model I think is flawed and deserves no propping up by city funds like before. If the current owners can't make this version work they should sell the land and move on. Build a Trader Joes there if you want. I am not opposed to the traveling Farmers Markets we see in some areas of town. Those honestly make a lot of sense for the Farmers Market mission.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 05 Sep 2019 22:16

cowboyeagle05 wrote:
Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
That's the other part of my point right there. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see the issue with it being a food hall, and it seems like people are (understandly) hung up on the fact that the district still calls itself the Farmer's Market. It would be one thing if they actually designed and intended for it to sell produce and it failed at that, but, to me, it just seems like they went a completely different route and made it more of a food hall with the produce taking a back seat.


I don't think it failed. It was busy, lively, and popular. It was costing the city money because the facility required a lot of maintenance and I think they thought they could do better financially if they turned the sheds "upscale" and kicked out the vendors, mostly Latino, who used to be the lifeblood of the busy market. It used to serve both local populations and restaurant owners who could go buy in bulk. It felt like a part of Dallas that was actually part of a real city. Reminded me of the wet markets from when I lived in Hong Kong, except you heard Spanish instead of Cantonese.

But, this is Dallas, and as you can see from the posts from people above who prefer the new market, people wanted to millennialize it (and I'm a millennial), and destroy any character because we don't like character in Dallas.

Some people out there thought that letting the vendors operate there hurt local farmers and prevented them from being able to compete. Well, the vendors have been gone for years, where are these abused farmers that we needed to protect by destroying the market?

The market did need critical and costly refurbishment. But it would have needed that whether we had local artisans or produce hawkers filling the sheds. The maintenance costs were used as ammo when they really had little to do with the bigger issue.


That is certainly a rosy romantic look at the old farmers market if I have ever heard. Then again we both know we aren't going to agree on its former history. I worked in the Dallas restaurant scene back when the city still owned it and went to culinary school at El Centro so I had experience with its former operations and ties to the restaurant industry.

Long term families did sell produce all year long and made a living there selling produce they bought off the back of 18 wheeler deliveries that came from all over the country. In fact, the Farmers Market used to be a federally approved delivery market where trucks would come in late nights unload and let people bid on pallets of processed produce the kind of stuff shipped in from places where some produce grows offseason to supply grocery stores. Grocery buyers would come late at night and purchase as well as other types of businesses.

The problem is farmers markets are usually about in-season items aka things you are only able to buy certain times of the year. The disagreement about the Dallas Farmers Market is a philosophy on food ecology in that many people want it to be Kroger/Walmart/Target/Tom Thumb with all the same stuff all the time no matter Fall Winter Spring Summer but also buy into the whole romanticism about buying from local farmers markets. You can't have both ideals work so seamlessly. Grocery stores lie to consumers faces and of course, succeed cause for decades we have been offered so much no matter what day of the year it is. As a society we no longer understand that some recipes some foods you just don't have until certain times of the year and there is a good ecological reason for that. Our culture is one where most consumers don't understand where their food comes from and they have been told not to care. There is no point selling the same produce Walmart sells better in a substandard destination.

The current version at least tries to support the real farmers and focus on the actual reason Farmers Markets exist in the first place to buy goods and services from people who actually know the products they grow or make during the times of the year they are likely to be available. Resellers who previously operated there just slapped their own tax on what they sold and made some money doing what Walmart does. It doesn't make them bad people just a business model I think is flawed and deserves no propping up by city funds like before. If the current owners can't make this version work they should sell the land and move on. Build a Trader Joes there if you want. I am not opposed to the traveling Farmers Markets we see in some areas of town. Those honestly make a lot of sense for the Farmers Market mission.


Does the produce in the photos look bad to you? It was always super fresh when I went, flawless, regardless of where it came from.

I grew up in an HEB dominated part of Texas. HEB takes pride in their produce. So did these sellers. Kroger, Tom Thumb, and Wal-Mart do not. I don't even look forward to buying produce in Dallas because honestly it's all shit unless you go to Central Market (HEB) or Whole Paycheck Foods. Or H-Mart. I repeat, most Dallas grocery stores only have shit produce. Stores like Kroger don't bake their own baked items in-store, and I don't even think they butcher their meat in store. It's all trucked in. Baked goods like cakes are frozen, sent in by truck, and thawed up to 30 days later. Most people in Dallas who are born and raised here would not know a good grocery store if it smacked them in the head. Until HEB decides to finally arrive.

I have family who moved here a couple years ago and are absolutely stunned at how low standards for meat and produce are at DFW area grocery stores. It could be one of the reasons we have an unhealthy "meat and potatoes" perception/image to our food scene.... because there is no supply of high quality fruit/veg outside of a couple store chains.

Again, none of the anti-old market people have offered any points about why the shed is better now. Nobody has commented on the whereabouts of the poor, abused local farmers that the previous people selling produce were hurting and why they still haven't shown up.

Guess what.... DFW is not a farming mecca. It just isn't. The produce that used to be "trucked in" as you so lovingly disparage came largely from other parts of Texas that specialize in those particular fruits or vegetables. If not, it came from other parts of the country that specialize in that and was much fresher than you can get at Walmart or Kroger. It was usually marked by state/location. Citrus doesn't grow in North Texas, but the Rio Grande Valley produces the sweetest, least acidic oranges I've ever had. The juice they produce is like candy. But they are hard to find in Dallas. They were all over the old farmer's market, brought in fresh by those hardworking hawkers. It's insane.

We had something cool, urban, and useful and destroyed it in the name of Hipsterism. Some of the best urban neighborhoods in the country like San Fran Chinatown have these sorts of produce sellers up and down the streets. It's perfect to pick up fresh ingredients on your way home from work Downtown. They didn't grow it either.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby jetnd87 » 06 Sep 2019 08:06

There are a few, minor downsides to losing the old rendition of the Farmer's Market, but IMO our current version is much, much better. I legitimately left depressed about my experience every time I visited the old one.

As far as produce goes, Matt777 you're basically describing 99% of America outside of privileged pockets of West and East Coast. It's one of the sad results of the industrialization of food that should be rectified and fought against with consumer choices. However, the comments on the state of produce & meat come off a bit hyperbolic. Not only is our situation the same across most of the country, but there are multiple options you listed (CM, Whole Foods, (roving) farmer's markets) and some you didn't (Market Street, Sprouts), though these are spottier in quality. Honestly, the fact that we have Central Market (and the most of any city), puts us in a very privileged position compared to other places.

Last couple of points - why do you need multiple chains that sell top-notch produce? Yes, ideally. But just go to Central Market for your produce. Or CM and Whole Foods. Or the Farmer's Market. Would even more options be better? Yes. Are they absolutely necessary to save our sorry state of produce? Not really. We have more CMs and Whole Foods (read: quality purveyors) in Dallas alone than exist in many states. Not to mention specialty butchers and seafood shops.

I think it's evident based on visitor numbers/feedback and real estate valuations/investment that the privatization and new strategy of the Farmer's Market was an improvement. No, DFW is not Napa Valley and we're not overflowing in beautiful produce year-round, but I think this "Farmer's Market" does a pretty good job in providing a cool Food Hall gathering space and enabling local sellers (of crafts, food, etc.). Makes me hopeful for the results of privatizing Fair Park and Convention Center.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby jetnd87 » 06 Sep 2019 08:24

Oh and the most delicious swiss chard I've ever tasted came from the Farmer's Market a few months back (the purveyor who sells leafy greens in the center front of the Shed).

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby tamtagon » 06 Sep 2019 12:51

Didn't the city release the strangle hold on neighborhood produce markets during the reinvention of the Farmers Market? While the city was managing the downtown Farmers Market, other parts of town were not allowed to permit smaller neighborhood-oriented markets and the thinking was that the competition was bad for the downtown extravaganza. Now, for example, there could be a Lakewood Farmers Market with enough space to serve the immediate neighborhood, something like that.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 15 Sep 2019 13:58

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This year, the General Consulate of Mexico in Dallas will celebrate the Mexican Independence within the Culinary Summit of Mexican Cuisine: Mexico of 1000 Flavors, September 13 at SMU and September 14 and 15 at the Dallas Farmers Market.
FREE ENTRANCE!
During this celebration, gastronomic, commercial, artistic, academic, cultural and entertainment activities will be developed. Personalities of traditional cuisine and Mexican haute cuisine will be present to participate in this unprecedented event that aims to collaborate in the rescue, safeguarding, and promotion of Traditional Mexican Cuisine as a Cultural Heritage of Humanity, as part of the Action Plan committed with UNESCO.
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Matt777
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 15 Sep 2019 16:36

Tostadas and flan! Mission brand factory tortillas! Exactly what I look for in a true farmers market. I take back anything bad I said about the new farmers market. This is ANOTHER Dallas city government success that we can all applaud city hall for. City hall is showing us time and time that anything they touch turns to GOLD.

Sarcasm aside, I see one booth with produce, and I guarantee you that those apples and oranges were not grown anywhere near DFW. No apples near here, and it's not Texas citrus season.

I see a lot of purveyors of produced food, which is nice, but again that's a food hall, not a farmers market. If the city wanted to build a food hall they should have made that clear when they sought funding to renovate the market and clear out all the former sellers, instead of deceiving taxpayers for the umpteenth time.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 15 Sep 2019 16:55

Taking the Farmers Market off the cities bankroll was the best decision they ever made whether you agree with their management direction or not. The city shouldn't be running a farmers market and that we can be happy that they don't.

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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby lakewoodhobo » 05 Oct 2019 16:13

New residential community on the way on downtown Dallas' east side
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... east-side/

Back in 2011 when InTown Homes was seeking $3M in TIF to build their Farmers Market Square project, I never imagined they'd be so successful that a few years later they would come back and build more without incentives. It shows you what this kind of investment is supposed to do for surrounding property.

These town homes are filling the empty lot on Commerce that has been vacant way too long.

Screen Shot 2019-10-05 at 4.01.36 PM.png
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R1070
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby R1070 » 05 Oct 2019 23:55

Glad to see this lot developed!
I’m excited about future infill in the East Quarter and Farmers Market areas.

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muncien
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Re: DTD: Farmer's Market 1.0

Postby muncien » 08 Oct 2019 09:12

R1070 wrote:Glad to see this lot developed!
I’m excited about future infill in the East Quarter and Farmers Market areas.


No doubt! This also almost guarantees that a decent sidewalk will FINALLY go in along COMMERCE! Rejoice!
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