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East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

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meowdeeb
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby meowdeeb » 13 Dec 2017 10:40

willyk wrote:The Real History of Ross Ave.

Leviticus and Menthol Ross were direct descendants of our nation’s beloved flag-maker, Betsy Ross. Their grandson, Steve Ross, parlayed a New Jersey funeral home into the world’s biggest media and entertainment conglomerate -- Time Warner.

In 1903 the Ross brothers came to Dallas from France, where the family had been living as expatriates. They were trained as pharmacists. It was here, in a shabby shed at the back of the large Ross Family Estate on Poultry Row that the Ross brothers invented their famous cough drops.


http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-real-history-of-ross-ave-7147763


Actually that article seems way to off to be true. Especially when a little research shows a different Ross Brothers. http://www.dallasblog.com/2008081510033 ... thers.html

I was interested in this article due to the Betsy Griscom Ross connection as I am 1st cousin 8x removed related. I would have loved a connection to Dallas, but how could they be a direct descendant of Betsy Ross when 1) She and John Ross did not have any children together (she remarried 2x after and had 5 kids with Claypool & Ashburn) and not from France in the 1900s. She was kind of here in the states for the revolution and all. LOL I can not find any other references to a Leviticus and Menthol Ross anywhere.

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NdoorTX
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby NdoorTX » 13 Dec 2017 22:22

Part of Dallas ISD's old Ross Avenue
headquarters would be reused in development plan

Steve Brown, Real Estate Editor
Connect with Steve Brown

Developers who are buying the Dallas Independent School District's longtime headquarters on Ross Avenue hope to save part of the old office complex.

Leon Capital Group is paying more that $9 million for the 4-acre property just east of downtown. The Dallas-based real estate firm won a bid for the DISD digs earlier this year.

Now Leon Capital has filed plans with the city for the apartment community it plans to construct on the block at Ross and Washington Avenue.

The plans show a 380-unit rental complex in five-story buildings. A six-level parking garage would be built at the south end of the block. There would be a courtyard in the center of the apartment complex.

The development plan by Architecture Demarest also includes the existing central building of the DISD headquarters that faces Ross. The two-story mid-century modern building is the most recognizable among the hodge-podge of structures built on the site in the last 60-plus years.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... pment-plan

Image

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Thymant
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Thymant » 18 Jan 2018 10:50

From December:

ImageModera Hall Street by Thymant, on Flickr

ImageModera Hall Street by Thymant, on Flickr

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Thymant
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Thymant » 18 Jan 2018 10:51

From Yesterday:

ImageAlexan Ross 1 by Thymant, on Flickr

ImageAlexan Ross 2 by Thymant, on Flickr

ImageModera Hall St +Townhomes by Thymant, on Flickr

ImageModera Hall St by Thymant, on Flickr

ImageRoss ave Townhomes by Thymant, on Flickr

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 18 Jan 2018 22:43

Anyone know anything about the development on Ross and Grisby? I pass by it alot , have snapped a pic, but it's turning out nice.

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gbud
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby gbud » 19 Jan 2018 04:48

Ross Ave. would drastically change if they built a landscaped median from downtown to lower greenville. It is great to see all these projects, but such a median, in my opinion, is what will truly change how Ross feels.

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vman
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby vman » 19 Jan 2018 06:01

gbud wrote:Ross Ave. would drastically change if they built a landscaped median from downtown to lower greenville. It is great to see all these projects, but such a median, in my opinion, is what will truly change how Ross feels.

I agree. I love the townhouse developments shown above, but why would you want a home that walks out onto a huge street like Ross? A median would definitely soften the street.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 19 Jan 2018 08:35

No median, I would prefer appropriate sidewalks with potential alternative transportation infrastructure built in. The street is still a freeway of sorts and making pedestrian crossings safer and more frequent, wider sidewalks, on-street parking, bike lanes etc would naturally calm traffic some and make it feel less like an airport runway canyon. Median seems more appropriate if we were making a parkway like Turtle Creek Blvd which I give it to you that is a pretty drive but that's the problem its designed for high-speed cars and not much else.

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eburress
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby eburress » 19 Jan 2018 08:52

Didn't this portion of Ross Ave used to have the center, reversible lane, like a highway? That could be part of the reason why it's the way it is now.

The vision for Ross Ave from a few years ago was to have a trolley running down the center. A trolley line running within a well-treed, landscaped median seems pretty much like urban xanadu to me!

I also love those townhomes. Does anybody know the actual name of the development?

DPatel304
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Jan 2018 09:38

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Median seems more appropriate if we were making a parkway like Turtle Creek Blvd which I give it to you that is a pretty drive but that's the problem its designed for high-speed cars and not much else.


That median is lame though. If we could do something like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@19.4161885 ... 312!8i6656

Then I'd be all on board. In fact, seeing as how there really isn't any retail or much of anything to do on Ross Ave, I think I'd say a median would be better. Having the foot traffic along the sides instead of the middle would make more sense if there was actually stuff to do.

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gbud
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby gbud » 19 Jan 2018 10:40

That median is lame though. If we could do something like this:


I actually lived in Mexico City for 2.5 years, a block away from where you pointed out, this median and the one on Amsterdam Avenue became part of my daily routine. A true pleasure to walk on such urban spaces. It would great if this idea was applied in Dallas, curious to see how the people here would react to it.

Median seems more appropriate if we were making a parkway like Turtle Creek Blvd


There are different types of median designs, plus Turtle creek is a different type of street. Turtle Creek is next to a natural setting (the creek), requires setback from its sidewalks to buildings, and its design is much more organic (flowy).

For Ross Avenue I was thinking something much more urban, like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8923808,-87.6242542,3a,75y,157.09h,81.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPa-FbmzfWBMMkAMfIiG1BA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 19 Jan 2018 13:39

The city proposed something similar in Oak Cliff and the community rejected it flat out. So the city dialed back the design to something more traditional.

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ericthegardener
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby ericthegardener » 19 Jan 2018 13:41

DPatel304 wrote:That median is lame though. If we could do something like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@19.4161885 ... 312!8i6656


Ahh, Mexico City. My favorite place in the world! People who haven't visited may not believe it, but there is a lot we could learn from Mexico City neighborhoods like Condesa and Roma.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 19 Jan 2018 16:38

Latin American cities for the most part have great urban spaces. It's the car culture here that kills cities.

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ericthegardener
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby ericthegardener » 19 Jan 2018 17:12

Sure, but there's no place with more cars and worse traffic than Mexico City. Yet despite that there are individual neighborhoods that are still walkable. We can have both if we have to.

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gbud
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby gbud » 20 Jan 2018 10:00

cowboyeagle05 wrote:the city dialed back the design to something more traditional.


Traditional in Dallas? Thats a first...
Last edited by gbud on 21 Jan 2018 18:36, edited 3 times in total.

DPatel304
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby DPatel304 » 20 Jan 2018 14:10

cowboyeagle05 wrote:The city proposed something similar in Oak Cliff and the community rejected it flat out. So the city dialed back the design to something more traditional.


Out of curiosity what road was this for?

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FelipeMi
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby FelipeMi » 21 Jan 2018 06:27

gbud wrote:Ross Ave. would drastically change if they built a landscaped median from downtown to lower greenville. It is great to see all these projects, but such a median, in my opinion, is what will truly change how Ross feels.


You think the changes will be for the worse, gbud? I would like it a bit more quiet, honestly.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Jan 2018 08:37

DPatel304 wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:The city proposed something similar in Oak Cliff and the community rejected it flat out. So the city dialed back the design to something more traditional.


Out of curiosity what road was this for?


Jefferson Blvd. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/oak-cliff/2012/12/04/revitalizing-oak-cliffs-jefferson-boulevard-proposed

...Plus a proposal drafted by the CityDesign Studio recommends widening the Jefferson median between Zang Boulevard and Bishop Avenue to create an outdoor marketplace and gathering spots — an addition that project supporters hope will build on the area’s Hispanic presence and flavor...

...Modeled after the Las Ramblas area in Barcelona, Spain, the Oak Cliff version would create a “vibrant pedestrian zone” that “brings a new experience, new uses and further economic opportunity to the area.” So says the CityDesign Studio idea presented last month to a group of property owners, city officials and others promoting the project...

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Thymant
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Thymant » 21 Feb 2018 15:46

Former credit union on Dallas' Ross Avenue to become 300-unit apartment project
Steve Brown
February 20, 2018

Image
[url="https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/02/20/another-apartment-project-way-dallas-ross-avenue"]https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/02/20/another-apartment-project-way-dallas-ross-avenue[/url]

The developer that's building Lake Highlands Town Center is starting work on another project east of downtown Dallas.


The almost 300-unit, 4-story rental project will be constructed on the former site of the Credit Union of Texas at 4600 Ross Avenue.


"Cypress was drawn to this dynamic redevelopment opportunity due to its proximity to employers in the nearby central business district and Uptown, as well as its easy access to iconic retailers and restaurants along Henderson, Fitzhugh and Lower Greenville," Bill Rafkin, Principal with Cypress Real Estate Advisors, said in a statement.

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Matt777
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Matt777 » 21 Feb 2018 16:15

Thymant wrote:Former credit union on Dallas' Ross Avenue to become 300-unit apartment project
Steve Brown
February 20, 2018

Image
[url="https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/02/20/another-apartment-project-way-dallas-ross-avenue"]https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/02/20/another-apartment-project-way-dallas-ross-avenue[/url]



Plain beige EIFS stick built apartment in Dallas. Groundbreaking.

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eburress
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby eburress » 21 Feb 2018 18:18

I'd be delighted with a bunch more groundbreaking architecture like this in that area. Keep 'em coming!

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tanzoak
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tanzoak » 21 Feb 2018 22:57

Matt777 wrote:Plain beige EIFS stick built apartment in Dallas. Groundbreaking.


Ross Ave isn't Uptown. To get high-end construction and design, you have to be able to fetch high-end prices, and you're just not going to get that here. It's either the unexciting midrise that will bring 600 more people and their vitality to the area, or this much worse-looking building with a design that belongs in a decrepit suburb.

Image

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 21 Feb 2018 23:09

^^ Don't forget about the big nasty parking lots owned by the theological school that no one uses..ever..

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Matt777
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Matt777 » 21 Feb 2018 23:10

tanzoak wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Plain beige EIFS stick built apartment in Dallas. Groundbreaking.


Ross Ave isn't Uptown. To get high-end construction and design, you have to be able to fetch high-end prices, and you're just not going to get that here. It's either the unexciting midrise that will bring 600 more people and their vitality to the area, or this much worse-looking building with a design that belongs in a decrepit suburb.

Image


I've traveled a lot around the US and seen many up and coming areas in other thriving cities that still get more interesting midrise architecture than this. And I'm not buying your assertion that these are going to be cheaper than other central Dallas apartments. Modera Hall Street, right down the street, starts at $1275 for a studio and $1355 for a small 1 bedroom, $2080 for a 2 bedroom. This is just lazy developers who know that nobody in Dallas is going to enforce any architectural guidelines, and the general population is indifferent. They love it because it increases their profit margin. Good design doesn't have to be expensive, by the way.

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Thymant
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Thymant » 22 Feb 2018 00:03

Matt777 wrote:
tanzoak wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Plain beige EIFS stick built apartment in Dallas. Groundbreaking.


Ross Ave isn't Uptown. To get high-end construction and design, you have to be able to fetch high-end prices, and you're just not going to get that here. It's either the unexciting midrise that will bring 600 more people and their vitality to the area, or this much worse-looking building with a design that belongs in a decrepit suburb.


I've traveled a lot around the US and seen many up and coming areas in other thriving cities that still get more interesting midrise architecture than this. And I'm not buying your assertion that these are going to be cheaper than other central Dallas apartments. Modera Hall Street, right down the street, starts at $1275 for a studio and $1355 for a small 1 bedroom, $2080 for a 2 bedroom. This is just lazy developers who know that nobody in Dallas is going to enforce any architectural guidelines, and the general population is indifferent. They love it because it increases their profit margin. Good design doesn't have to be expensive, by the way.


If you think $1355 for a small 1 bedroom $2080 in a brand new apartment is expensive you must have not done much apartment shopping lately in the area, $1200-$1400 is a typical starting price for a brand new small 1 bedroom apartment in the Dallas area. If you believe that those prices are high you should check out the prices of these other comparable brand new mid-rises that you have seen in other cities that have much better architecture. If this were going in uptown I could understand the complaints but this is Ross ave, there is a lot of land and still a lot of improvement that needs to be made. In order for this area to continue to improve there needs to be more residents and successful developments in order for developers to be willing or forced dish more cash.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby vman » 22 Feb 2018 07:19

tanzoak wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Plain beige EIFS stick built apartment in Dallas. Groundbreaking.


Ross Ave isn't Uptown. To get high-end construction and design, you have to be able to fetch high-end prices, and you're just not going to get that here. It's either the unexciting midrise that will bring 600 more people and their vitality to the area, or this much worse-looking building with a design that belongs in a decrepit suburb.

Image

Thank you, Thank you and Thank you. I go to other cities and am blown away by the designs of the new residential going up. What's going on here in Dallas is simply embarrassing. You honestly cannot distinguish one apartment development from another. It's sad that the "city" doesn't seem to see this as a problem.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby eburress » 22 Feb 2018 08:43

Matt777 wrote:I've traveled a lot around the US and seen many up and coming areas in other thriving cities that still get more interesting midrise architecture than this.


Definitely not in California. Most places here would dream of having that sort of structure built because with only a few exceptions, it's only the cheapest possible crap that's built out here.

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The_Overdog
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Feb 2018 09:21

I go to other cities and am blown away by the designs of the new residential going up.


Most of the Dallas apartment builders are national firms, and it's very easy to find the exact same buildings in other cities around the US.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Feb 2018 09:51

Good architecture does not require more money.

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Matt777
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Matt777 » 22 Feb 2018 11:03

Thymant wrote:
Matt777 wrote:
tanzoak wrote:
Ross Ave isn't Uptown. To get high-end construction and design, you have to be able to fetch high-end prices, and you're just not going to get that here. It's either the unexciting midrise that will bring 600 more people and their vitality to the area, or this much worse-looking building with a design that belongs in a decrepit suburb.


I've traveled a lot around the US and seen many up and coming areas in other thriving cities that still get more interesting midrise architecture than this. And I'm not buying your assertion that these are going to be cheaper than other central Dallas apartments. Modera Hall Street, right down the street, starts at $1275 for a studio and $1355 for a small 1 bedroom, $2080 for a 2 bedroom. This is just lazy developers who know that nobody in Dallas is going to enforce any architectural guidelines, and the general population is indifferent. They love it because it increases their profit margin. Good design doesn't have to be expensive, by the way.


If you think $1355 for a small 1 bedroom $2080 in a brand new apartment is expensive you must have not done much apartment shopping lately in the area, $1200-$1400 is a typical starting price for a brand new small 1 bedroom apartment in the Dallas area. If you believe that those prices are high you should check out the prices of these other comparable brand new mid-rises that you have seen in other cities that have much better architecture. If this were going in uptown I could understand the complaints but this is Ross ave, there is a lot of land and still a lot of improvement that needs to be made. In order for this area to continue to improve there needs to be more residents and successful developments in order for developers to be willing or forced dish more cash.


I'm very cognizant of the local rents. $1400 for a small one bedroom is on the high side of the midrange. Cities with similar purchase costs per square foot like the hip neighborhoods of Nashville, Charlotte, Denver, etc deliver better rental design for a similar price point (around $2.50 per square foot). This design is just embarrassing as are most of the ones that go up around here. Don't defend them (unless you work for them or stand to benefit). If this was "affordable housing" renting for far less then I would be okay with it. At this point it's just an EIFS white box with windows and doors punched out. There needs to be a limit in this city on what % of the exterior can be covered in EIFS. I would even settle for 50/50 EIFS/Brick but that's apparently asking too much from our developer overlords who apparently can't make money on anything that's not basic.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tamtagon » 22 Feb 2018 11:11

The only thing I don't like about the apartment in these pics is the tiny balconies.

Dallas has great weather for apartments with outside rooms. If we're going to put out a call for better architecture, for me that would start by designing around the outside living room.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby vman » 22 Feb 2018 11:31

The_Overdog wrote:
I go to other cities and am blown away by the designs of the new residential going up.


Most of the Dallas apartment builders are national firms, and it's very easy to find the exact same buildings in other cities around the US.


You are correct, I do see these designs in other cities, but not nearly the quantity here. If these buildings were mixed in with better architecture, their blandness would probably be less noticeable. But because Dallas has block after block of these, it's very easy to notice the repetition.

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The_Overdog
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Feb 2018 11:37

But because Dallas has block after block of these, it's very easy to notice the repetition.


That's because Dallas went about 20 years without building much multifamily at all. It sticks out here because the designs are all contemporary because they have all been built this decade and because DFW is growing at rate that generally head and shoulders above everywhere else.

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Matt777
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Matt777 » 22 Feb 2018 14:33

The_Overdog wrote:
But because Dallas has block after block of these, it's very easy to notice the repetition.


That's because Dallas went about 20 years without building much multifamily at all. It sticks out here because the designs are all contemporary because they have all been built this decade and because DFW is growing at rate that generally head and shoulders above everywhere else.


These stick out because they look like storage facilities. The cost cutting is painfully obvious and will not age well, causing problems for these neighborhoods in the future when they face either lowering rents substantially to fill them up, or completely reskinning the buildings. Most will go with the former and these neighborhoods will turn into Vickery Meadow 2.0. The developers do not care because by that point they will have sold these off to an investment fund and the decay will not be their problem. These developments are quick, easy bucks for them that require little effort or finesse.

Even most of the garden style apartments that went up around DFW in the 90s and early 2000s used much higher quality materials and ornamentation, including a heavy use of brickwork.

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The_Overdog
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Feb 2018 14:53

Even most of the garden style apartments that went up around DFW in the 90s and early 2000s used much higher quality materials and ornamentation, including a heavy use of brickwork.


None of the ones that I lived in were high quality construction, and I don't defacto consider brick to be higher quality material than stucco. I consider that to be an ornamentation decision, not an 'architectural' choice. But again, when you are only building 1000-5000 units a year, you can put more time into design.

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tanzoak
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tanzoak » 22 Feb 2018 23:38

It's pretty contradictory to say that a) it doesn't cost anything more (either in materials cost or time) to deliver higher-quality construction/design, while b) developers are just doing this to make a quick buck.

Either higher-quality doesn't cost more and developers are just stupid, or higher-quality does cost more and developers are skimping to maximize profit.

But it doesn't make sense to say higher-quality doesn't cost more and developers are skimping to maximize profit.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 23 Feb 2018 09:00

tanzoak wrote:It's pretty contradictory to say that a) it doesn't cost anything more (either in materials cost or time) to deliver higher-quality construction/design, while b) developers are just doing this to make a quick buck.

Either higher-quality doesn't cost more and developers are just stupid, or higher-quality does cost more and developers are skimping to maximize profit.

But it doesn't make sense to say higher-quality doesn't cost more and developers are skimping to maximize profit.


I think what you have to think about is that the developers aren't focused on a good design they are instead focused on getting something built that generates a profit. Sounds like the same thing but it's in fact entirely different. Good design is something that doesn't necessarily come from a longer amount of time from an architect or designed by a name designer either. The key is they start with profits in mind and design something that fits inside that box that the city applies to the land. If the developer had good design in mind in partnership with profits we would be getting different results. The key is they don't care about good design cause they don't see it as contributing to profits. That doesn't mean good design subtracts from profits just doesn't matter to them and their business plan. The confusion in cost comes when we hire a name architect and associate good design because he has designed something good in the past. I call it engineered architecture. It works as it was designed on a very basic level but is not responsive to anything but the profit margin that was the seed for the design in the first place.

Sure we could also talk about materials and that is whole other conversation cause many of these projects who use crappy materials would still be badly designed urban architecture whether they were brick or not. Using brick or other materials is just something some of us would prefer because it seems like the only way to force developers to design something better for the community it is built in. You could make the entirety of the Hampton Inn Trammel Crow monstrosity built on Goat Hill out of Greek Marble but does it necessarily cause the building to be good design, no. Would I prefer better materials because we are stuck with it? Yes.

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The_Overdog
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby The_Overdog » 23 Feb 2018 11:50

I just think you are wrong - good architecture does cost more money - buried parking costs more, balconies cost more, shorter block lengths cost more (less units per acre), false pitched roofs cost more - raised stoops cost more - wooden windows cost more.

Bricks cost more too, but the value of them is much less in that brick color can be divisive - and the overuse of brick in DFW among suburban homes has put it as being an inferior material. Notice how people are painting it and breaking it up with other types of stone on single family - even ones that don't even come close to matching.People pay more not to have a fully bricked home. That's why these guys don't just bite the cost and brick everything.

It's not like they aren't listening to their marketing departments - solid stone countertops cost more than laminate on the interior finishes, but they don't just throw in laminates to save money. If you say they are listening to marketing instead of architects I'd agree with that - they are putting money where their marketing department says will bring in more rent and not where the architect says will make the building more 'timeless'. But they aren't just blowing better architecture off because they do all cost more money.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 23 Feb 2018 12:54

I still stand by my statement good design doesn't cost more. One of the keys to good design is that costs can be balanced just as much as a profit first project but then again we can debate this all day and still never convince each other. I just wish more of these developers had more on their mind than throw up 300 units slap some cheap materials and build it around a costly parking garage and walk away. It is about the process they go through to create these projects and to be honest developers in general on this scale never have an interest on making a change because they are firmly based in business model mode rather than making valuable contributions to a city. It sounds hippy dippy but the work they do has profound impacts as we all know so it would be nice if they didn't only set their projects foundations on the balance sheet only. Their business models are all about getting it up, open and sold to a management company within a year or two. After that they don't care what happens so why would their product change.

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Matt777
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Matt777 » 23 Feb 2018 13:58

That EIFS may be a certain percent cheaper than brick on the initial project cost worksheet, but it is going to cost them money in the future when their buildings rent for less because they look like crap. Also, some of the EIFS buildings experience bad cracking and leaking problems which cost money to the future owners, not to mention they need to be painted every several years to look decent. The mentality of these developments is to slap something up quick, cheap, and ugly, then use incentives to fill it up to the brim (with artificially high "looking" rents) and then sell it off to an unsuspecting investment fund and leave them and the neighborhood to worry about the problems later. This behavior does not help build great, lasting neighborhoods. And no ground floor retail??!!

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tanzoak
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tanzoak » 23 Feb 2018 21:54

cowboyeagle05 wrote:I still stand by my statement good design doesn't cost more. One of the keys to good design is that costs can be balanced just as much as a profit first project but then again we can debate this all day and still never convince each other. I just wish more of these developers had more on their mind than throw up 300 units slap some cheap materials and build it around a costly parking garage and walk away. It is about the process they go through to create these projects and to be honest developers in general on this scale never have an interest on making a change because they are firmly based in business model mode rather than making valuable contributions to a city. It sounds hippy dippy but the work they do has profound impacts as we all know so it would be nice if they didn't only set their projects foundations on the balance sheet only. Their business models are all about getting it up, open and sold to a management company within a year or two. After that they don't care what happens so why would their product change.


I too would prefer top-quality design with limited parking instead of mediocre design with a giant parking garage. But, a) the City requires ungodly amounts of parking, so that parking garage is required and the decision on the tradeoff is made for them, and b) to the extent that the developer/financer would make that decision anyway (I dunno), I would bet that the people whose jobs it is to figure out what their customers value most highly have a better handle on that than you or I do.

Sure, you or I might pay more for the snazzy street appeal than the second parking space, but would most people? In Dallas? I don't think they would.

Your contention that they don't care because they'll sell it off immediately doesn't make much sense to me. They'll want to build a building that operates at the highest possible profit regardless of whether they keep it themselves or sell it off. If they sell it, they'll get a higher price if it's more profitable.

If you're referring to longer-term value, that still requires a belief that apartment management companies fundamentally don't understand the business they're in and don't reduce the price they'll pay for buildings that will require higher maintenance costs in the future.

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tanzoak
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tanzoak » 23 Feb 2018 22:03

Matt777 wrote:That EIFS may be a certain percent cheaper than brick on the initial project cost worksheet, but it is going to cost them money in the future when their buildings rent for less because they look like crap. Also, some of the EIFS buildings experience bad cracking and leaking problems which cost money to the future owners, not to mention they need to be painted every several years to look decent. The mentality of these developments is to slap something up quick, cheap, and ugly, then use incentives to fill it up to the brim (with artificially high "looking" rents) and then sell it off to an unsuspecting investment fund and leave them and the neighborhood to worry about the problems later. This behavior does not help build great, lasting neighborhoods. And no ground floor retail??!!


EIFS had cracking and leaking problems last century, before modern air/moisture barriers were introduced. Now it rates as the best performing cladding (better than brick) for moisture control.

To support ground floor retail, you either have to be in a dense area or be in a retail destination. This area is neither.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Feb 2018 09:05

tanzoak wrote:
To support ground floor retail, you either have to be in a dense area or be in a retail destination. This area is neither.


I would argue traffic counts matter more than both of those elements. It is why most people are confused about retail in general because you can have a beautiful spot next to AT&T HQ but many retailers will scoff at the location unless it has adequate numbers of cars passing by on the daily. Of course, it depends on the particular business. Starbucks may want traffic counts at certain times differently than a Subway sandwich shop.

The key is picking the time right before an area pops. So far while Ross is exploding with rooftops the street isn't developing any real walkability either. Most of the retail that has been installed in the last two years has been shopping center style retail. One bar has opened that was right on the sidewalk. Ross for so long has been a pass-through from Downtown to East Dallas. There is no reason it couldn't have some on sidewalk activity but the city has done nothing to encourage and the Developers are just looking at Ross as a place to dump some "affordable" units.

The reality there is no one with any vision on Ross or a neighborhood group advocating serious change with developers and the city. Over on McKinney Ave. there is the Uptown Dallas Inc. Lowest Greenville had the various neighborhood associations there. Even the Gaybourhood has the Tavern Guild to provide influence on structural policy changes. What does Ross Avenue have? The developers here have nothing to push back against.

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tanzoak
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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tanzoak » 26 Feb 2018 10:23

cowboyeagle05 wrote:
tanzoak wrote:
I would argue traffic counts matter more than both of those elements. It is why most people are confused about retail in general because you can have a beautiful spot next to AT&T HQ but many retailers will scoff at the location unless it has adequate numbers of cars passing by on the daily. Of course, it depends on the particular business. Starbucks may want traffic counts at certain times differently than a Subway sandwich shop.

The key is picking the time right before an area pops.


When doing analyses of developments, we assume pass-by trips to retail (i.e. trips where you stop there on your way to somewhere else) are about 20% of all trips. That's enough to be relevant, but not enough to be the primary driver. Also, developers don't ask us for traffic counts, which I assume they would if they were using that as a determinate of retail viability. Suburban (or suburban-style) developments of large-scale shopping centers/complexes? Sure, it's important. But ground-floor retail? Never.

In grad school I took several MBA courses on real estate development taught by developers and financers. When analyzing prospectuses and doing case studies, there was never any information on traffic counts. Instead, it was always the number of people within X miles and their demographics. And they also said the most important consideration for neighborhood retail was the density of the area, while for regional power centers it was proximity to highways. Obviously for neighborhood retail it's better to be on an avenue than a side-street, but that would happen after determining whether it was viable at all based on the density/demographics of the area. Ross Ave would fail that test right now.

Also, it is not key to pick the time before it pops. Getting out in front of the market is a great way to go broke. They'll speculate more on residential location, because ultimately it will be filled, particularly in a tight market, just maybe at lower rents than you were hoping. But with retail or office, a wrong decision means you just can't get it filled.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Feb 2018 10:37

Now that's the kind of response back I like to read! Logical with just enough science to understand from a layman's point of view without any emotional outburst. And as far as my before it pops statement what I mean is getting in the perfect spot before rents jump and spaces are few but not be a lonely pioneer. I agree I have worked for early settlers before in parts of Dallas and sometimes they will last long enough to catch an upswing but they tend to fail while businesses that came later are blossoming. Racking up that debt to be the first guy on the line doesn't necessarily work in retail. If you bought out actual property along Ross and sustained ownership when it was not as valuable it can be worth the wait if you play it right but those are two entirely different businesses.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 26 Feb 2018 22:19

A relative of mine picked up several key properties along the Knox-Henderson corridor back in the 80's. From the north side of Knox next to the (then future) Katy Trail down to corner of Henderson and Ross. Holding on to those properties ate up a lot of cash over the years. In retrospect he probably sold a little too soon.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby TreeFrog » 07 Jul 2018 01:44

Didn't see this posted, but thought this was the correct place for it:

Dallas goes to court to shutter Republic Ranch, Pilikia and The Pretty Diver on Ross Avenue

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-city-hall/2018/07/05/dallas-goes-court-shutter-republic-ranch-pilikia-pretty-diver-ross-avenue

Dallas City Hall has a message for three nightclubs operating along Ross Avenue near downtown: Turn out the lights, the party's over.

City attorneys this week filed two suits in an attempt to shutter Republic Ranch, Pilikia and The Pretty Diver, claiming all three are illegal operations — bars the city says are pretending to be restaurants in a neighborhood where bars are not allowed by zoning.

The lawsuits, which followed a city inspection last weekend, are the latest step of a yearslong clash between nightlife spots who say they're not doing anything wrong and Bryan Place residents who say their neighborhood is overrun with drunken patrons and their cars.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby ContriveDallasite » 07 Jul 2018 04:56

TreeFrog wrote:Didn't see this posted, but thought this was the correct place for it:

Dallas goes to court to shutter Republic Ranch, Pilikia and The Pretty Diver on Ross Avenue

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-city-hall/2018/07/05/dallas-goes-court-shutter-republic-ranch-pilikia-pretty-diver-ross-avenue

Dallas City Hall has a message for three nightclubs operating along Ross Avenue near downtown: Turn out the lights, the party's over.

City attorneys this week filed two suits in an attempt to shutter Republic Ranch, Pilikia and The Pretty Diver, claiming all three are illegal operations — bars the city says are pretending to be restaurants in a neighborhood where bars are not allowed by zoning.

The lawsuits, which followed a city inspection last weekend, are the latest step of a yearslong clash between nightlife spots who say they're not doing anything wrong and Bryan Place residents who say their neighborhood is overrun with drunken patrons and their cars.



Seems like another fantastic use of taxpayers money.

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Re: East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

Postby tamtagon » 07 Jul 2018 06:37

Bryan Place is a dead end neighborhood, and they're claiming the neighborhood is overrun with drunken patrons and their cars?

I wonder if this is the same collection of residents who ten-ish years ago complained that the 20 story highrise in a proposed development with apartments, grocery store a couple block SSE would block their view.


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