Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

User avatar
JohnMcKee
Posts: 72
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 19:26

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby JohnMcKee » 26 Feb 2018 19:56

Good riddance, couldn't have happened to a nicer person.

This falls squarely on Al, he had a great neighborhood bar, one that I was formally a frequent customer at and he drove all his neighborhood business away by acting like a complete p***k. Apparently he thought his bar could survive on middle aged suburbanite radio fans while he went out of his way to antagonize his neighbors thinking he was invincible.

I'm actually a little sad to see the MAT go but not Al, I hope he lost a lot of money.
Last edited by JohnMcKee on 26 Feb 2018 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
R1070
Posts: 446
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 21:00

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby R1070 » 26 Feb 2018 20:31

The "Midget Wrestling" sign was always distasteful to me.

User avatar
flyswatter
Posts: 85
Joined: 02 Nov 2016 07:31

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby flyswatter » 26 Feb 2018 20:45

Likely a new bar or restaurant will open there, although I would love to see them squeeze a residential building on that lot! As bars on McKinney Avenue slowly continue to close/renovate and bars continue to thrive/grow in Deep Ellum, this just more evidence that Uptown is becoming less of a place to go "party"?

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 27 Feb 2018 02:18

flyswatter wrote:Likely a new bar or restaurant will open there, although I would love to see them squeeze a residential building on that lot! As bars on McKinney Avenue slowly continue to close/renovate and bars continue to thrive/grow in Deep Ellum, this just more evidence that Uptown is becoming less of a place to go "party"?


Yup, and I'm glad to see the party go. The area just isn't equipped to handle the crowds, so I say good riddance. I guess this is dependent on what replaces this bar though, because it could just be replaced by another bar (doubtful).

Deep Ellum is already crowded as it is, and I don't think it's (currently) capable of absorbing all of the Uptown crowd. Hopefully a new area emerges in the near future. Do the owners of Kung Fu Saloon also own Concrete Cowboy and Clutch? If so, I think these three bars have enough power to decide where the next Uptown will be. I don't think any of these really fit into Deep Ellum, so I'm really hoping they move to the Design District instead. Unless something happens and those bars aren't cool any more, but I'm honestly surprised at how long they've been able to remain relevant (not just in Dallas, but in other cities as well).

User avatar
whit5125
Posts: 11
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 09:54

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby whit5125 » 27 Feb 2018 11:33

Ah I liked that place but yes, Al was a turd. I do want the part scene in uptown to get toned down a bit but not die altogether, nothing wrong with having multiple party districts and I do lie Deep Ellum and Uptown having completely different styles. Henderson aveneue and Greenvile Ave will continue to thrive as does Deep Ellum, but what i want is for the West End to make a comeback, or for a bit more of the party scene to continue moving to downtown on Main or Commerce street.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1006
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 27 Feb 2018 11:56

Personally, I was at HG Supply on Saturday for a birthday and had forgotten they close at midnight so while a few of my friends moved to the Libertine I went home to the gaybourhood bars for two reasons. One, it's a 1 min walk to my apartment and second, they have S4, where I can people watch from 2 am till 4 am because I wasn't drinking.

Now there's a neighborhood that generally speaking has the ability to absorb the bar crowd once they get kicked out around 2 am and often absorbs crowds from other parts of town straight and gay.

The key difference being that Uptown has thousands of residents in apartments/condos/townhomes that speak up when they are unhappy. Gaybourhood and Deep Ellum don't have as much. Deep Ellum is getting more residents on the edges so I am curious to see how that changes the bar crowd nightlife scene.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1152
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby tamtagon » 27 Feb 2018 12:33

cowboyeagle05 wrote: Deep Ellum is getting more residents on the edges so I am curious to see how that changes the bar crowd nightlife scene.


Alpha cities seem to encounter much more robust, varied and sustainable bar crowd nightlife scenes near very high population density, so all Dallas decision makers need to do is make sure everyone is safe -- residents as well as partiers.

User avatar
WilCo
Posts: 72
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:34

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby WilCo » 27 Feb 2018 13:10

It seems Uptown is becoming more focused on residential, office, and restaurant growth as the bars slow down there. Deep Ellum is just about at full capacity as it is, good luck finding parking there on any weekend night.
I would also like to see some more bars develop further west, in Downtown, Oak Lawn, and the Design District. I may be biased because its so close to my apartment, but it would be nice to see them move into the design district especially. I think with any of the other potential "party neighborhoods" near the urban center you risk destroying existing character (Gayborhood) or displacing residents (the Cedars). The design district had no character or resident to begin with, it's just warehouses. I think the industrial park/warehouse scene is starting to come on with hipsters/artist types, especially with the advent of breweries.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 27 Feb 2018 13:10

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Deep Ellum is getting more residents on the edges so I am curious to see how that changes the bar crowd nightlife scene.


I think the new residential is, generally, far enough away from the party scene that it won't be a problem. Plus, people who move there now should know what they are in for.

tamtagon wrote:Alpha cities seem to encounter much more robust, varied and sustainable bar crowd nightlife scenes near very high population density, so all Dallas decision makers need to do is make sure everyone is safe -- residents as well as partiers.


I'm curious, but do you have examples of this? When I travel, I generally don't check out the nightlife just because I'm not really into the scene, so I can only really say that I'm familiar with Austin's nightlife and bourbon street as well. Bourbon street seemed far enough away from any residential, and Austin's nightlife also somewhat felt isolated from it as well. The exception in Austin being Rainey street which is a much more recent area, and you're now seeing luxury condos/apartments rising up literally right next door to some bars there. It's like a more intense version of what is happening in Uptown with the bars vs residents situation. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out on Rainey St.

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 438
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby tanzoak » 01 Mar 2018 10:04

DPatel304 wrote:I'm curious, but do you have examples of this?


Typically, bar scenes are in dense neighborhoods, while party scenes are in more industrial neighborhoods. NYC bar scene in the Lower East Side and party scene in Bushwick. SF bar scene in The Mission, party scene in western Soma and West Oakland. To have a bar scene removed from where lots of people are is strange.. that's what the bar scene is all about!

edit: by party scene, I mean like underground/warehouse parties

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 438
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby tanzoak » 01 Mar 2018 10:12

WilCo wrote: Deep Ellum is just about at full capacity as it is, good luck finding parking there on any weekend night.


Hopefully not many people are driving to go out to bars on the weekend...

Thankfully, this seems to be the case less and less. "And, most dramatically, [San Diego] nightclub valets are seeing a 50 percent drop off."
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1152
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby tamtagon » 01 Mar 2018 11:21

tanzoak wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:I'm curious, but do you have examples of this?


Typically, bar scenes are in dense neighborhoods, while party scenes are in more industrial neighborhoods. NYC bar scene in the Lower East Side and party scene in Bushwick. SF bar scene in The Mission, party scene in western Soma and West Oakland. To have a bar scene removed from where lots of people are is strange.. that's what the bar scene is all about!

edit: by party scene, I mean like underground/warehouse parties


Thanks, that what I mean...

I think remaining blue laws in Dallas County work against the norm observed in bigger population centers and places with higher population density. In general, Dallas south of the river is not allowed to have neighborhood bars or a 'bar scene' and that contributes a wildness to other parts of town. Mentioned in the Las Colinas thread is the string of liquor store on NWHighway just inside Dallas city limits; the dramatic swings in nightlife observed in Deep Ellum then Uptown are associated, though other factors have driven those ones.

Uptown is going to settle very nicely into the type of nightlife scene Dallas hasn't really had before and the biggest proponent of a scene reaching well beyond the region is population density.

User avatar
WilCo
Posts: 72
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:34

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby WilCo » 01 Mar 2018 13:10

tamtagon wrote:
tanzoak wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:I'm curious, but do you have examples of this?


Typically, bar scenes are in dense neighborhoods, while party scenes are in more industrial neighborhoods. NYC bar scene in the Lower East Side and party scene in Bushwick. SF bar scene in The Mission, party scene in western Soma and West Oakland. To have a bar scene removed from where lots of people are is strange.. that's what the bar scene is all about!

edit: by party scene, I mean like underground/warehouse parties


Thanks, that what I mean...

I think remaining blue laws in Dallas County work against the norm observed in bigger population centers and places with higher population density. In general, Dallas south of the river is not allowed to have neighborhood bars or a 'bar scene' and that contributes a wildness to other parts of town. Mentioned in the Las Colinas thread is the string of liquor store on NWHighway just inside Dallas city limits; the dramatic swings in nightlife observed in Deep Ellum then Uptown are associated, though other factors have driven those ones.

Uptown is going to settle very nicely into the type of nightlife scene Dallas hasn't really had before and the biggest proponent of a scene reaching well beyond the region is population density.


I'm genuinely curious, because I think you're onto something, but can you elaborate? What's your theory on why the lack of a bar scene anywhere south, or I guess west in Las Colinas's case, of the river have an affect on the inconsistent nightlife in certain Dallas neighborhoods?

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 292
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby The_Overdog » 01 Mar 2018 13:23

I'm genuinely curious, because I think you're onto something, but can you elaborate?


I think the compass direction is wrong. It's north that has the population and a bar scene that used to be nonexistent but now is in it's infancy. That's the overflow - nonresident spending leading to a desire for 'entertainment districts' rather than a 'neighborhood' bar scene.

User avatar
WilCo
Posts: 72
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:34

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby WilCo » 01 Mar 2018 13:56

The_Overdog wrote:
I'm genuinely curious, because I think you're onto something, but can you elaborate?


I think the compass direction is wrong. It's north that has the population and a bar scene that used to be nonexistent but now is in it's infancy. That's the overflow - nonresident spending leading to a desire for 'entertainment districts' rather than a 'neighborhood' bar scene.


I'm still a little confused, are you saying high population areas that didn't used to have bars are now getting them, so that is pulling away from other parts of town? Didn't think we ever had many bars outside of Deep Ellum/Lower Greenville/now uptown.. Seems people just fluctuate between the three because they are all fairly close proximity to another.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 292
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby The_Overdog » 01 Mar 2018 14:44

I'm still a little confused, are you saying high population areas that didn't used to have bars are now getting them, so that is pulling away from other parts of town? Didn't think we ever had many bars outside of Deep Ellum/Lower Greenville/now uptown


Yes, it is pulling people and business away from a small number of parts of town to more parts of the metro, which is a good thing. The bars should be distributed better for safety reasons, economic reasons, diversity reasons, etc and other non-primarily-bar businesses take their place in those former entertainment districts.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 845
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 01 Mar 2018 18:02

The burbs have Applebee's. That's their bar.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 01 Mar 2018 18:41

I was out at the Shops at Legacy a couple months ago, and was surprised at how crowded it was and how young the crowd was too. I suppose it makes sense, given the amount of people that live in the vicinity, but when I used to go there 5-6 years ago, it had more of an older crowd and a neighborhood bar feel to it. When I went recently, a couple of the bars felt like Uptown bars when you were inside. This was right before Christmas time, so perhaps I just went out on a busier than normal night seeing as how there were probably a lot of students returning home for the holidays.

The same thing seems to be happening in Austin too, which I noticed the last time I went to the Domain. The cost of living near Downtown Dallas and Austin is high and many jobs are up north in both cities, so there will always be that crowd of younger people who don't want to pay more for rent, or don't want to put up with the commute. Seems there are enough of these young people to create somewhat of a party atmosphere up in the 'burbs.

I'm not sure what Addison is like these days, but they have a few bars that get decently busy. I haven't been there in years, but seemed like an older crowd compared to Plano and Uptown.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 845
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 01 Mar 2018 21:11

I had the exact opposite experience. I went to the Legacy a couple months back.. October. Seemed like a lot of 40 somethings with fewer younger people (20-30), and high schoolers.

Maybe that's changed since then.

I also had a coworker who lived there a couple years back. Like 5 years ago. The savings were modest but definitely not astronomical. I doubt they are the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the apartments now fetch 1400.

User avatar
WilCo
Posts: 72
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:34

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby WilCo » 01 Mar 2018 22:36

DPatel304 wrote:I was out at the Shops at Legacy a couple months ago, and was surprised at how crowded it was and how young the crowd was too. I suppose it makes sense, given the amount of people that live in the vicinity, but when I used to go there 5-6 years ago, it had more of an older crowd and a neighborhood bar feel to it. When I went recently, a couple of the bars felt like Uptown bars when you were inside. This was right before Christmas time, so perhaps I just went out on a busier than normal night seeing as how there were probably a lot of students returning home for the holidays.

The same thing seems to be happening in Austin too, which I noticed the last time I went to the Domain. The cost of living near Downtown Dallas and Austin is high and many jobs are up north in both cities, so there will always be that crowd of younger people who don't want to pay more for rent, or don't want to put up with the commute. Seems there are enough of these young people to create somewhat of a party atmosphere up in the 'burbs.

I'm not sure what Addison is like these days, but they have a few bars that get decently busy. I haven't been there in years, but seemed like an older crowd compared to Plano and Uptown.


Las Colinas could be the same way if it weren't for the city's long standing feud with alcohol. They made an exception to their alcohol-food ratio for the urban center that may get it there. Problem right now is the only businesses taking a chance on it are most chain/restaurant bars anchored by the music factory development. If they could get a few "hip" bars I think we could be off and rolling right up there with Addison. Really its closer to Dallas and has public transit to boot. The proximity to Dallas is a blessing and a hindrance, as most young people here still just uber to Uptown. That's an expensive uber ride from the Legacy area which is why they've done so well with their few bars so far. Las Colinas has all the ingredients, hope it can take it to the next level soon! I agree the best system is having nearby neighborhood bar scenes in the "urban-suburban" developments for the people that work/live up there, but also a thriving nightlife scene in the urban center of Dallas. I think whats happening right now is just the thinning of the herd.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1006
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Mar 2018 09:02

There is a perceived difference in rent between Urban Dallas and the burbs and it's not as far off as some people assume sometimes. I have friends who tell me they couldn't afford to live in town they just don't want to pay that much and when I tell them my rent they are shocked. I live in a relatively new unit with granite countertops and views of the skyline and 15 mins from Downtown by bus. A few of these people live in older units in Addison for example and it just seems to come down to a lot of factors that include what self-done apartment research people do, what they assume without doing the research and what apartment locators send them oh and the time of the year. I got my rate when my building was being taken over by new management so they were trying to retain and attract new rent while they began the process to take over the property. Personally, I think going forward with my knowledge of real estate comings and goings I might try to seek out properties under new management and in the winter months when they are desperate for move in's. My lease this year will end in December so we will see.

User avatar
Redblock
Posts: 64
Joined: 24 Nov 2016 11:15

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Redblock » 02 Mar 2018 09:20

Crews were moving the furnishings out of Sambuca yesterday.

User avatar
WilCo
Posts: 72
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:34

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby WilCo » 02 Mar 2018 09:21

cowboyeagle05 wrote:There is a perceived difference in rent between Urban Dallas and the burbs and it's not as far off as some people assume sometimes. I have friends who tell me they couldn't afford to live in town they just don't want to pay that much and when I tell them my rent they are shocked. I live in a relatively new unit with granite countertops and views of the skyline and 15 mins from Downtown by bus. A few of these people live in older units in Addison for example and it just seems to come down to a lot of factors that include what self-done apartment research people do, what they assume without doing the research and what apartment locators send them oh and the time of the year. I got my rate when my building was being taken over by new management so they were trying to retain and attract new rent while they began the process to take over the property. Personally, I think going forward with my knowledge of real estate comings and goings I might try to seek out properties under new management and in the winter months when they are desperate for move in's. My lease this year will end in December so we will see.


I don't think its necessarily the rent that keeps many young people from living in Dallas proper. I think it's mainly just the wide dispersal of jobs in the metroplex. Many jobs are in the urban-suburban developments such as Legacy West or Las Colinas. Sometimes you work at one and your spouse lives in another and you find a spot in-between. There aren't as many people working in Downtown Dallas as people might thinking, and Dallas's economic centers have long been polycentric. The difference nowdays is young people and even empty-nesters are living in apartments closer to the job centers and are demanding amenities to go along with the jobs. That's the main reason bars are getting further dispersed.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1152
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby tamtagon » 02 Mar 2018 10:07

Redblock wrote:Crews were moving the furnishings out of Sambuca yesterday.


That's a little melancholy. I remember being mad when Sambuca left Deep Ellum. Is it done or opening somewhere else?

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 02 Mar 2018 16:08

The venue formerly known as Uptown Urban Market is now called The Commons at Cedar Springs, and will celebrate its grand opening on March 3 with an amusingly dubbed event called Brunch the Pain Away.

They've replaced the former food stands with a fresh new lineup that includes OMG Tacos, Totta Yama Sushi, Ampersand Coffee, and a new pizzeria concept called Slice-O Pizza.

Other big changes include longer hours and a remodel of the interior to give it more of a lounge feel. Stuffed couches and sexy lighting make it feel less clinical and more like a bar.

"Our main goal is to have something inviting for the neighborhood, for the young professionals and students that live and work in the area," he says.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... r-springs/

This is a nice surprise. I'm pretty sure they had announced that the old food hall would be replaced by OMG Tacos, but it looks like OMG Tacos is just one of a handful of new vendors coming to the new food hall.

I like the fact that they are trying to make it more of a lounge and good place to hang out. That was one of my biggest gripes with the previous food hall, is that it was set up like a mall food court, with a much smaller selection. It just wasn't a place where you'd want to hang out or meet up with friends, it was more of a place you'd just grab a quick snack and go (I suppose that's not necessarily a bad thing, but something about the old food hall just wasn't working).

It'll be interesting to see if this works out for them. I still think this needs to be bigger and somewhere where it is more noticeable and has more foot traffic, but I think this a good attempt considering the circumstances. It doesn't help that this particular location has seen so many business fail already.

User avatar
uptown74
Posts: 23
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 19:00

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby uptown74 » 06 Mar 2018 22:52

Just saw this segment on WFAA.. Apparently The Den on Mckinney ave closed recently and Shell Shack is closing soon.


http://www.wfaa.com/video/news/new-visi ... 87-8028816

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 06 Mar 2018 23:09

Good riddance. I can't really speak for Shell Shack since I never had a chance to go there, but I'm really glad the Den is gone.

I wonder what's next for the party scene in Uptown.

User avatar
dzh
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Dec 2016 20:24

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby dzh » 07 Mar 2018 06:56

I've heard a rumor that Concrete Cowboy is getting ready to move to Deep Ellum, not sure how true it is however

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Mar 2018 08:52

dzh wrote:I've heard a rumor that Concrete Cowboy is getting ready to move to Deep Ellum, not sure how true it is however


I hope not. All of these Uptown bars could get together, coordinate, and create a completely new area, rather than trying to fit into Deep Ellum. Wasn't Beauty Bar also rumored to go to Deep Ellum?

I'm really hoping all these Uptown bars see potential in the Design District. I suppose if they must go to Deep Ellum, hopefully they at least locate themselves far away from the current bars (perhaps further east in Deep Ellum). I'm not sure if there is enough room, but I feel like Bottled Blonde and The Backyard have already created a bit of an Uptown party scene next to Deep Ellum, so perhaps there is room for more Uptown bars in this area.
Last edited by DPatel304 on 07 Mar 2018 09:16, edited 2 times in total.

lakewoodhobo
Posts: 484
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 13:49
Location: Elmwood, Oak Cliff

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby lakewoodhobo » 07 Mar 2018 09:12

uptown74 wrote:Just saw this segment on WFAA.. Apparently The Den on Mckinney ave closed recently and Shell Shack is closing soon.


http://www.wfaa.com/video/news/new-visi ... 87-8028816


So Shell Shack is moving to a bigger space in Knox-Henderson but reconcepting the current space as a poke restaurant. More like an expansion than anything.

User avatar
flyswatter
Posts: 85
Joined: 02 Nov 2016 07:31

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby flyswatter » 14 Mar 2018 15:04

Poke Go Go will open shortly after Shell Shack closes.

https://dallas.eater.com/2018/3/13/1711 ... nt-opening

User avatar
Redblock
Posts: 64
Joined: 24 Nov 2016 11:15

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Redblock » 14 Mar 2018 22:11

The Fat Rabbit space is now PL8.

Here is their website,

http://pl8dallas.com/

User avatar
Dallas12
Posts: 23
Joined: 30 Oct 2016 15:16

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Dallas12 » 15 Mar 2018 10:46

DBJ Article from this morning. I wish there could be a happy medium as far as having more than just the high end steak house etc. Neighborhood restaurants, bars, retail etc. are what give neighborhoods a neighborhood feel. The fact that Uptown is becoming less walkable is what I dislike the most.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/03/15/buh-bye-bars-hello-high-rises-the-new-vision-for.html

Buh-bye bars, hello high-rises: The new vision for Uptown Dallas
By Bill Hethcock – Staff Writer, Dallas Business Journal

The once wildly popular Big Al’s McKinney Avenue Tavern — home of midget wrestling, turtle races and rambunctious karaoke nights — has closed, the latest victim to a pattern in Uptown Dallas in which bars and more affordable eateries are being replaced by high-rise apartments, condos and office buildings.

McKinney Avenue Tavern, known to its regulars as “MAT,” was preceded in death by Uptown institutions like Sambuca, The Den, Idle Rich Pub and the short-lived Fat Rabbit. Shell Shack is on death watch, sources on the street and Internet say.

What the heck is going on?

For answers, we turned to Grant Pruitt, co-founder, president and managing director of Whitebox Real Estate, who put it in this nutshell: “The highest and best use of the one-story bar that was down the street is now a 15-story high-rise.”

Whitebox works with tenants, buyers and users of office and industrial space, focusing heavily on Uptown and downtown Dallas. The Dallas-based firm also does development, redevelopment and investment sales.

Here’s Pruitt’s perspective on what’s up in Uptown:

How are the real estate dynamics shifting in Uptown right now?

I see a transition in Uptown that’s coming to fruition and there are a couple of different factors pushing that. One is that traffic has picked up in Uptown considerably. There was an idea that Uptown was more accessible than other areas of town, as far as getting to the tollway and so forth, but because of construction, density and everything that has come with it, it’s not as accessible as it once was.

Is it also becoming less walkable?

Uptown has been known for its walkability. All of your bars and restaurants were there. You had high-rise apartment living there. I lived in Uptown. I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, because you live there, you work there, you hit the bar on the way back from work, you pick up something to eat, you can have dates down there, it’s fun, and it was more affordable in every way. The restaurants were more affordable, the bars were more affordable, the apartments were more affordable and office space was more affordable.

And now?

It’s changing. McKinney Avenue has been ranked recently as the 14th most expensive street in the United States and commands over an 88 percent premium to an average street in the metroplex. Rents have skyrocketed from an office standpoint. They’ve skyrocketed from a multifamily housing standpoint. What you’re really seeing is capitalism at its best. The highest and best use of the one-story bar that was down the street is now a 15-story high-rise. What has happened is, people are taking out the bars, taking out the restaurants, and putting in high-rises. There are pros and cons to that. People don’t see it like it was in the 1980s.

How so?

In the 1980s, if you built an office building, it was an office building. There were no restaurants, no bars, no retail (in the office building). If you had a restaurant, it was a restaurant. What we’ve seen is, the amenities are now driving the tenant base. People want to office in a live-work-play environment. So they tear down the restaurant, they tear down the bar, and they put in — McKinney & Olive is a great example — a Del Frisco’s in the bottom (of an office building). If you’re a 22-year-old kid right out of school, you might be able to go to Del Frisco’s for a big date, but that’s about it. So you’re seeing the high-end restaurants go into these buildings, and you’re seeing the bars that people used to go to, like McKinney Avenue Tavern, go by the wayside.

Will that trend continue?

The bars and restaurants are going away, the residential is getting more expensive, and to a certain extent, it’s not very walkable in Uptown.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 292
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby The_Overdog » 15 Mar 2018 11:07

I don't recall McKinney Avenue ever being 'affordable', but if it was it was only for a little while. It's always been a premium place, comparatively. If you wanted to drink cheap, you were in the suburbs.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 15 Mar 2018 11:20

Yeah, the bars in Uptown have always been on the higher end. The restaurants were more of a mixed bag, though, and that's what's changing. I'm totally happy with the reduction of the party scene, but we need a good mix of expensive and affordable restaurants.

It's funny that Victory Park has spent the last several years adding more affordable places and less high end restaurants, while Uptown now seems to be doing the opposite.

It's way too early to tell though. Yes we have gotten a few high end steak places in the span of a few years, but maybe that was simply an industry that just had a lot of pent up demand in the area that wasn't being met. We'll have to see how the next few years shake out.

I'd love to see the urban core embrace more ethnic foods. It doesn't necessarily have to be Uptown, but DFW has a plethora of good ethnic food, but all of it is way out in the suburbs.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 195
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 15 Mar 2018 14:15

^ You guys are just too young. There used to be plenty of cheap places in the 80's and into the 90's.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 292
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby The_Overdog » 15 Mar 2018 16:12

^ You guys are just too young. There used to be plenty of cheap places in the 80's and into the 90's.

Maybe, but then it was Little Mexico, partially deserted or whatever and not 'Uptown' and it was cheap because downtown was crushed due to S&L and moving up the road. If that's what the guy enjoyed then fine, but I don't think it's anything *any* place should aspire to being.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 27 Mar 2018 23:11

Velvet Taco finds perfect home in Uptown Dallas taqueria location
here's a major taco hand-off happening in Uptown Dallas, as one gourmet taqueria leaves to be replaced by another: Dallas taqueria chain Velvet Taco will open a new location at 3411 McKinney Ave. in late summer 2018.

"We want to provide guests the complete Velvet Taco experience and that includes remodeling," Dover says. "We anticipate a late summer to early fall opening."

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... -mckinney/

This is a welcome addition to the area. I've never been to urban taco so I'm not sure how the two compare, but I'm a fan of Velvet Taco and it seems to be plenty popular every time I go.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 02 Apr 2018 13:15

A year in the making, MidiCi, the pizza chain based in Los Angeles, is opening its first location in Dallas on April 12 — and has two more Dallas locations in the works.

Established in 2015, MidiCi does Neapolitan pizza in an upscale atmosphere, but with the affordability of a casual restaurant concept. Its pizzas run $8 to $13, rather than the $15 and up prices you might see at some of its Neapolitan peers.

The spot that Midici will take in West Village is next to Cru Wine Bar and across from Mi Cocina in the complex's South Alley. It faces out on Lemmon Avenue in a troubled spot that has been home to a couple of bars, including Lemon Bar and Lazare.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... ge-uptown/

Looks like this is taking over the spot that previously housed Lyfe Kitchen.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 14 Apr 2018 13:46

Plano pizzeria with fine wine on tap makes Uptown Dallas debut
There's a good new pizza coming to Dallas, with the arrival of Plano pizzeria Sixty Vines, which is opening its second location in Uptown on April 16.

Located at 500 Crescent Court, #160, the restaurant took over the former Palomino Euro Bistro space, where it will feature an indoor/outdoor design with grape vines, wine barrels, and harvest tools creating an ambience similar to a vineyard tasting room.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... wn-dallas/

This is one of my favorites spots in Plano, so I'm really looking forward to this coming to Uptown.

User avatar
R1070
Posts: 446
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 21:00

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby R1070 » 14 Apr 2018 18:40

There appears to be some build out taking place in the previous Idle Rich space on McKinney. I don't know why they didn't just let Idle Rich stay open. I felt like they were a good neighborhood spot that didn't get too wild.

User avatar
Redblock
Posts: 64
Joined: 24 Nov 2016 11:15

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Redblock » 15 Apr 2018 18:30

Possible action at the Hot Joy (former Texas Land & Cattle) site at Cole and Lemmon.

A zoning change request sign was just posted for case number Z178-223.

Hopefully someone can find out what it is about.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1006
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 16 Apr 2018 08:49

R1070 wrote:There appears to be some build out taking place in the previous Idle Rich space on McKinney. I don't know why they didn't just let Idle Rich stay open. I felt like they were a good neighborhood spot that didn't get too wild.


Last I checked they were tearing out the insides for the demolition of the entire building. If something else is going in? that must mean the tower plans were really dashed against the rocks which is sad more for Idle Rich than anything. Idle Rich, in my opinion, was one of the good guys when it came to the McKinney Avenue troubles.

DPatel304
Posts: 842
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby DPatel304 » 26 Apr 2018 17:24

Circo Will Soon Be Dallas’ Most Over-the-Top Restaurant
Nearly two years after announcing its planned expansion into Dallas, it appears that Circo will finally debut in Uptown at the end of May.

The spinoff from New York’s now-shuttered Le Cirque will occupy two floors of the new 22-story high rise at 2619 McKinney Avenue, and will feature a resort-style pool and spa along with the restaurant. Former press releases announced that the restaurant would offer drink service in the bathrooms, and the pool? Glass bottomed, y’all.

https://dallas.eater.com/2018/4/26/1728 ... g-may-2018

This place sounds ridiculous and over the top, and I'm not even sure if this building is the best fit for it. Actually, after reading the article, I'm not even sure what it is. It sounds like it's just a fancy restaurant that is on the roof and has a pool?

User avatar
exelone31
Posts: 228
Joined: 31 Oct 2016 11:35

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby exelone31 » 27 Apr 2018 08:50

Drink service in the bathroom? That's.....efficient?

lakewoodhobo
Posts: 484
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 13:49
Location: Elmwood, Oak Cliff

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby lakewoodhobo » 27 Apr 2018 11:55

DPatel304 wrote:
Circo Will Soon Be Dallas’ Most Over-the-Top Restaurant
Nearly two years after announcing its planned expansion into Dallas, it appears that Circo will finally debut in Uptown at the end of May.

The spinoff from New York’s now-shuttered Le Cirque will occupy two floors of the new 22-story high rise at 2619 McKinney Avenue, and will feature a resort-style pool and spa along with the restaurant. Former press releases announced that the restaurant would offer drink service in the bathrooms, and the pool? Glass bottomed, y’all.

https://dallas.eater.com/2018/4/26/1728 ... g-may-2018

This place sounds ridiculous and over the top, and I'm not even sure if this building is the best fit for it. Actually, after reading the article, I'm not even sure what it is. It sounds like it's just a fancy restaurant that is on the roof and has a pool?


Nothing like an out-of-town investor trying to replicate New York or Las Vegas in Dallas, quite possibly the most fickle market in the nation. Once the Kens and Barbies get tired of it and "those people" start to join the crowd, watch it burn like an epic supernova explosion.

User avatar
flyswatter
Posts: 85
Joined: 02 Nov 2016 07:31

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby flyswatter » 06 May 2018 08:47

TABC application sign is up for the open space next to Pok and across the Magnolia Theater in West Village. The restaurant will be called NAMO. Google search found a Craiglist job posting that says:

NAMO is founded on the four pillars of food, music, design and togetherness. Fresh fish and local ingredients drive Namo's simple, yet modern approach in the kitchen, where the focus is on the purity and authenticity of our reinterpretation of Japanese cuisine.

This new concept is an elevated fast casual sushi concept which will be in Uptown Dallas. This will be a concept Dallas has never seen before! We're looking for happy, humble, and hardworking people to join our growing team.

User avatar
exelone31
Posts: 228
Joined: 31 Oct 2016 11:35

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby exelone31 » 07 May 2018 09:33

Fresh fish and local ingredients drive Namo's simple, yet modern approach in the kitchen, where the focus is on the purity and authenticity of our reinterpretation of Japanese cuisine.


Hahahahahahaha what? I know everyone associates "modern" with overly complicated and ornate, but we're going to do simple here guys. We will so authentically reinterpret Japanese cuisine, you won't even recognize it. It'll be unbelievable.

This write-up is no more stretchy than most, but that sentence in particular really cracked me up.

lakewoodhobo
Posts: 484
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 13:49
Location: Elmwood, Oak Cliff

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby lakewoodhobo » 07 May 2018 11:12

I was in San Antonio over the weekend and saw the original Hot Joy on South Alamo Street. This area of town is known as King William District or Southtown and is culturally similar to Bishop Arts / North Oak Cliff. Point being that picking Uptown for their Dallas expansion was the absolute worst rookie mistake they could've made.

If your product appeals to a certain market in one city, find that customer base in the next city you want to expand to instead of picking the trendy upscale place you read about on Yelp and Zagat.

User avatar
Matt777
Posts: 273
Joined: 28 Oct 2016 09:10

Re: Uptown Dallas: Business Openings and Closings

Postby Matt777 » 07 May 2018 18:56

lakewoodhobo wrote:I was in San Antonio over the weekend and saw the original Hot Joy on South Alamo Street. This area of town is known as King William District or Southtown and is culturally similar to Bishop Arts / North Oak Cliff. Point being that picking Uptown for their Dallas expansion was the absolute worst rookie mistake they could've made.

If your product appeals to a certain market in one city, find that customer base in the next city you want to expand to instead of picking the trendy upscale place you read about on Yelp and Zagat.


I don't think it would have helped Hot Joy. This is going to sound snobby, but outside of Tex-Mex the food scene in San Antonio lags a bit in my opinion so what may be amazing to them is mediocre in more mature food scenes. The food at Hot Joy was subpar and the theme/spirit was offensive to the much larger DFW Asian community. Putting it in Bishop Arts would not have made the food better nor the concept any more appropriate.

Can the city force the owners to paint over the mural that still lingers on the building wall? The old "Cowboy versus Chinese man" motif has no business on that wall. It is literally a mural of a cowboy shooting a Chinese man. I am not Asian but even I find it offensive, tacky, and gross. Especially considering that dark chapter in our nation's history with the Chinese exclusion act and the numerous massacres of Chinese immigrants in the old west that happened 100% without any consequences for the murderers.

The mural seems like it could have been inspired by this 1894 painting titles "Not a Chinaman's Chance" by Charles M Russell. Sickening.
Image
Image
Image


If this is the best the San Antonio food scene has to offer Dallas, they can stay in San Antonio.....


-


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: trueicon and 12 guests

Login