Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 09 Jul 2017 07:43

Isn't it a little late in the construction process to be adding energy-efficient systems and water reduction technology? Oh, for a journalist with a curious mind.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 10 Jul 2017 09:11

Most likely this is merely an application that was filed after the work was well on its way to being done. I doubt they were waiting on this check to make those changes. The improvements were installed from the beginning with hopes the would get this money. Keeping in mind that every system in this building is basically new since it was so behind and empty for so long and making these kinds of technology investments makes sense in the overall cost of running the property.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 26 Jul 2017 15:09

Hotel opening slipped again. Now showing December 2017.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 22 Sep 2017 14:05

... and the hotel openings have slipped again. Now showing February 2018

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby lakewoodhobo » 28 Sep 2017 14:40

Signs for the hotels have been installed. Also got to see the entrance to Motopia, which I guess looks as nice as you can hope for next to that ugly parking garage.

IMG_0236.jpg
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Sep 2017 15:03

The garage is a nasty eye sore. Turkish mike if you read this .. shame on you for ignoring the garage design.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby joshua.dodd » 28 Sep 2017 15:19

A paint job would go a long ways with this building.

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willyk
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby willyk » 28 Sep 2017 22:43

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:The garage is a nasty eye sore. Turkish mike if you read this .. shame on you for ignoring the garage design.


Some scrim would help a lot.

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vman
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby vman » 29 Sep 2017 06:24

At first glance, that Motopia sign looks like the BMW logo. And although so much better than what was there before, this development is a major disappointment design-wise.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 29 Sep 2017 09:08

Keep in mind to get the historical tax credit money they had to restore the facade to the modernization facade you still see today. They looked at the original facade underneath and it was so long gone the state wouldn't provide the money to restore it. When the "fins" were added decades ago to the brick columns they messed with a significant amount of the original details. I even heard that the historical commission almost didn't approve the basement level windows because they aren't original to the modernization that was done when they put the fins on the columns. If those ground level basement windows would have been filled the basement would basically be useless.

Currently, an independent gym, Motopia, and Dev Mountain occupy the basement along with the apartment building amenities.

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tamtagon
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby tamtagon » 29 Sep 2017 09:34

Hopefully when the current owners sell, the whole place can get another modernization... if it takes it back to appearing like brick warehouse that'd be great, or something else, whatever. Getting it occupied is the first step. The whole neighborhood is on track turning into a people habitat, it'll fill in and spill over, this building will be a much more desirable spot and get gussied up.

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willyk
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby willyk » 29 Sep 2017 22:18

It's the only game in town for this part of DT. I am glad just to have something there. Maybe now we'll some infill around it. The Not-Trump Hotel would be a good fit.

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ArtVandelay
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby ArtVandelay » 13 Feb 2018 06:54

Marriott website says the hotels are opening May 2018.

I’m going to be surprised if this ever gets finished.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 05 Apr 2018 13:41

ArtVandelay wrote:Marriott website says the hotels are opening May 2018.

I’m going to be surprised if this ever gets finished.


Now it says July 2018. (FWIW, when this project was first announced, the hotel was supposed to open no later than 2015.)

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby lakewoodhobo » 05 Apr 2018 14:19

I wish they hadn't painted "BBB" on the top like this. Now everyone will think it stands for Better Business Bureau.

IMG_5844.jpeg
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Cbdallas
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Cbdallas » 05 Apr 2018 14:34

What kind of super half off half off special deal did they get for that yellow paint. Ugh.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 05 Apr 2018 15:53

lakewoodhobo wrote:I wish they hadn't painted "BBB" on the top like this. Now everyone will think it stands for Better Business Bureau.

IMG_5844.jpeg


...BIG BALLER BRAND!! WE AINT EVA LOST!!

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 05 Apr 2018 15:55

Cbdallas wrote:What kind of super half off half off special deal did they get for that yellow paint. Ugh.


They had to keep the buildings historical contetx. That's the original stucco color from the 60's. Blame the guy put the stucco on there in the first place.

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ArtVandelay
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby ArtVandelay » 05 Apr 2018 16:49

I'm pretty sure they didn't get a sign permit for that.

Tnexster
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tnexster » 09 May 2018 21:30

vman wrote:At first glance, that Motopia sign looks like the BMW logo. And although so much better than what was there before, this development is a major disappointment design-wise.


The owner of Motopia said they changed the name of the restaurant. I already forgot what he told me but it should be open on Monday or Tuesday.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 10 May 2018 08:16

Tnexster wrote:
vman wrote:At first glance, that Motopia sign looks like the BMW logo. And although so much better than what was there before, this development is a major disappointment design-wise.


The owner of Motopia said they changed the name of the restaurant. I already forgot what he told me but it should be open on Monday or Tuesday.


Wow. 1 1/2 years behind schedule.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 10 May 2018 08:30

BBB Cafe is the new name. The motorcycle tie-in out the door. It's simply Butler Brothers Building Cafe. The Motopia sign is coming down since they are no longer tied to the concept of a cafe/motorcycle club.

Let's put it this way there is a reason Alterra/Turkish Mike doesn't propose projects in Dallas anymore. Alterra works mostly in St. Louis now converting historic buildings there into hotels.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 10 May 2018 09:57

cowboyeagle05 wrote:BBB Cafe is the new name. The motorcycle tie-in out the door. It's simply Butler Brothers Building Cafe. The Motopia sign is coming down since they are no longer tied to the concept of a cafe/motorcycle club.

Let's put it this way there is a reason Alterra/Turkish Mike doesn't propose projects in Dallas anymore. Alterra works mostly in St. Louis now converting historic buildings there into hotels.


And his Jefferson Arms project in St. Louis is proceeding in much the same fashion as the Butler Bros Building project did here in Dallas. The headlines and quotes are pretty funny. It's almost as if they took the articles from Dallas about the BBB, changed the name of the building and other such details and re-ran them. He supposedly had the building under contract in February 2016, closed on the purchase in late June 2017, and at least as of early April 2018, had not yet started redevelopment work.

Does he have other projects in St. Louis? Jefferson Arms is the only one listed on his website.
Last edited by Tucy on 02 Jul 2018 11:22, edited 2 times in total.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby lakewoodhobo » 10 May 2018 10:14

There are some good photos of the Butler Brothers in St. Louis here:

https://www.builtstlouis.net/central-co ... ing01.html

Lets you see more or less what the Dallas building would look like without the stucco.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 10 May 2018 10:31

NM

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 25 May 2018 13:12

It appears the hotels are actually going to open in mid-June! (2018; especially in the case of this building, it's important to specify a year.)

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jrd1964
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby jrd1964 » 26 May 2018 04:24

That's funny, the hotel sites I found say May. Whenever they do, hopefully things will go well.

https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ ... -downtown/
https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ ... -downtown/

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 28 May 2018 07:58

jrd1964 wrote:That's funny, the hotel sites I found say May. Whenever they do, hopefully things will go well.

https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ ... -downtown/
https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ ... -downtown/


I saw that too. But when you go to the reservation calendar, the first available dates are in mid-June.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 28 May 2018 12:17

The key is talking to the guy who was hired years ago to run the hotels. He is still employed and being paid to manage things when the doors finally open. Last I heard the city didn't like some design features that conflicted with city code work so they had to make some changes.

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mdg109
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby mdg109 » 29 May 2018 15:49

Work is still being done, but it looks like it's almost finished. The surrounding area needs a lot of work. Hopefully they'll clean up the small surface lot that's right next to it.
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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tucy » 02 Jul 2018 11:25

The hotels are open! Any word on when the Butler Bros Building Cafe will open?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Jul 2018 11:46

It has been open for a few weeks now.

https://www.facebook.com/Butler-Brother ... TNWfo0Q9OY

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Jul 2018 09:47

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... -building/

Very casual burger bar opens in historic downtown Dallas building

...The building was originally slated to get a concept called Motopia, a unique, Euro-style business that would combine motorcycles with coffee house and lounge. But that was the plan in 2016, and plans change...

...Butler Brothers Bar is a more basic place with burgers, loaded fries, and dishes that can appeal to hotel guests, diners off the street, and kids, says manager Nathan McAnally. They're open daily from 10:30 am to 11 pm...

...The menu includes salads such as Asian chicken and Caesar. Sandwiches include chicken breast, tuna salad, and a club sandwich. Their burger choices include a "country" burger with brown gravy and a fried egg...

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exelone31
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby exelone31 » 11 Jul 2018 11:44

But that was the plan in 2016, and plans change...


^ Look! They included the official motto of this building! :lol: I kid, I kid.

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mdg109
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby mdg109 » 11 Jul 2018 18:15

I walked past there last night and having this place open really does liven up this corner.
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exelone31
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby exelone31 » 12 Jul 2018 09:13

That's awesome! I dig the awnings and patio space too.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 12 Jul 2018 09:51

Some Ivy on this building would help make it more appealing. The yellowish stucco is overwhelming.

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ContriveDallasite
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby ContriveDallasite » 12 Jul 2018 16:33

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Some Ivy on this building would help make it more appealing. The yellowish stucco is overwhelming.


We've gone over the stucco a thousand times. I'm just glad someone put some makeup on the ugly duckling and activated a critical building next to city hall.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 12 Jul 2018 18:50

ContriveDallasite wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Some Ivy on this building would help make it more appealing. The yellowish stucco is overwhelming.


We've gone over the stucco a thousand times. I'm just glad someone put some makeup on the ugly duckling and activated a critical building next to city hall.


We've gone over why they had to paint the building that color; due to historical tax credits. Does that apply to plants? It's not altering the facade.

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ArtVandelay
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby ArtVandelay » 12 Jul 2018 19:50

I’m not sure how many times we have to go over this, but the historical tax credit excuse is bull****. It came down to economics for the developer.

Do you really think the Texas Historical Commission said don’t make this building look like it did when it was built but rather restore it to its 1960s fake facade glory?

I’ve disicssed with numerous licensed architects at major firms downtown and they all agree the developer soiled the bed on this one.

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ArtVandelay
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby ArtVandelay » 12 Jul 2018 19:58

Also to clarify - the developer claimed the original brick would be damaged if the stucco was removed. The Historical Commission accepted this and awarded the tax credits.

A restoration could have been performed for a price.

Yes, it’s better than it was but will not have staying power.

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willyk
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby willyk » 12 Jul 2018 23:07

If the low cost redo translates into more affordable housing, it’s worth it. Do apartments here rent for less than EMC, Victory and Uptown?

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dukemeredith
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby dukemeredith » 13 Jul 2018 08:09

willyk wrote:If the low cost redo translates into more affordable housing, it’s worth it. Do apartments here rent for less than EMC, Victory and Uptown?



Apartments in the BBB rent for less than the *super* luxury apartments in Uptown and Victory. But their rates are on par with anything in the EMC, and the more ‘normal’ (i.e, still often considered ‘luxury’) apartments in Uptown and Victory.

In other words, nothing close to the meaning of ‘affordable housing,’ as that term is ordinarily used.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2018 09:03

Also to clarify most of the original brick was not behind the stucco. When the stucco was added to the facade back when the building was updated decade ago a significant amount was replaced with red brick to infill from construction work to the facade update. You could see what I am talking about in previous pictures where some of the stucco blades were removed in exploratory construction and red brick was there rather than the chocolate brown brick the building is known for. Keep in mind a simple unifying paint job over all the brick would not have been acceptable by the Historical Commission. Also, talk to anyone removing stucco from that era from brick and you will get an ear full about how it damages the brick significantly. What original brick that is left would have most likely been immensely ruined by removal of that stucco and would have to be replaced. Stucco from that area doesn't magically float on top of the old facade. Its attached with the intention of never coming off.

So yes they could have removed the stucco and replaced the old damaged brick with Historical Commission approved brick at a huge cost. We are talking about double-digit millions just spent on the facade alone. So yes it was a budget decision, spend the money on redoing the building and making it operational again over spending millions on rebuilding the facade from almost scratch. I doubt any bank would have granted the loan or any group of investors would have OKed wasting money to restore the facade for so little profit at the end including the tax breaks.

Mind you they could have removed the old facade in total and rebuilt it from the ground up using the original design as a guide but they wouldn't get tax breaks and the US Department of the Interior would have required some significant changes to make sure the building was not confused as being original/historical anymore.

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Matt777
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Matt777 » 13 Jul 2018 09:10

willyk wrote:If the low cost redo translates into more affordable housing, it’s worth it. Do apartments here rent for less than EMC, Victory and Uptown?


I think it translates into more profitable housing, not more affordable, as long as he can fill the units. I don't know occupancy rates, but they were offering something crazy like 3 months free at one point, and leased out a number of units to a software development training school. The interiors are very well done, but it is a pretty ugly building on the exterior and I can't imagine that renters are knocking down their doors to live there. Combined with it still being the "up and coming" part of downtown near empty parking lots and homeless facilities..... They really needed to knock this one out of the park visually to energize this area and that did not happen on the exterior.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2018 09:14

Matt777 wrote:
willyk wrote:If the low cost redo translates into more affordable housing, it’s worth it. Do apartments here rent for less than EMC, Victory and Uptown?


I think it translates into more profitable housing, not more affordable, as long as he can fill the units. I don't know occupancy rates, but they were offering something crazy like 3 months free at one point, and leased out a number of units to a software development training school. The interiors are very well done, but it is a pretty ugly building on the exterior and I can't imagine that renters are knocking down their doors to live there. Combined with it still being the "up and coming" part of downtown near empty parking lots and homeless facilities..... They really needed to knock this one out of the park visually to energize this area and that did not happen on the exterior.


They leased 8 units to DevMountain for their onsite coding school so that's not a huge impact to their numbers. They are set up like dorms with multiple beds in each bedroom.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby Cbdallas » 13 Jul 2018 10:03

Just some better paint color choices on the outside would have gone a long way. Pale yellow mush generally does not rivet the senses. I am still glad it is there though and someday it will get repainted.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2018 11:02

According to the meetings with the historical commission, the butter yellow is historical to the modern facade they installed back in the day so color choices were limited to colors back then and what would have been on the stucco at the time it was installed.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby DPatel304 » 13 Jul 2018 11:16

Cbdallas wrote:I am still glad it is there though and someday it will get repainted.


My thoughts exactly. Considering this part of town doesn't have much going on (even less when this building was first proposed), I feel lucky that we got something like this. Yes it's ugly, but it's not abandoned, and the ugly is not permanent as well.

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jrd1964
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Butler Brothers Building

Postby jrd1964 » 13 Jul 2018 15:43

DPatel304 wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:I am still glad it is there though and someday it will get repainted.


My thoughts exactly. Considering this part of town doesn't have much going on (even less when this building was first proposed), I feel lucky that we got something like this. Yes it's ugly, but it's not abandoned, and the ugly is not permanent as well.


....or torn down for surface parking!


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