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Trinity River Park

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 01 Aug 2017 16:42

2 words: Cautiously Optimistic

DPatel304
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 01 Aug 2017 20:14

On a slightly related note, has anyone been to Houston's Buffalo Bayou? I'm not very familiar with Houston at all, but isn't that similar to the Trinity River Park in that it's a large greenspace near the urban core that is also a flood zone?

I'm curious to hear the similarities, and how well it has been working out for them so far.

Tnexster
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 01 Aug 2017 21:45

^I have never seen it but have heard positive remarks about it and it looks pretty cool from the pictures. I believe it is somewhat similar but the Trinity River is probably a larger body of water. Dallas has the opportunity to do something really great here, for the first time in a long time I think they may just pull it off but the road project has to be killed for good.

DPatel304
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 02 Aug 2017 00:23

I don't want to get my hopes up too high, but it is a good sign that the city has invested a lot of money into this part of town. We have the two signature bridges, the streetcar, and potentially another deck park coming too. Seems like there are high hopes for this area, and a park such as this would really help speed up the process.

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rantanamo
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby rantanamo » 02 Aug 2017 03:15

DPatel304 wrote:On a slightly related note, has anyone been to Houston's Buffalo Bayou? I'm not very familiar with Houston at all, but isn't that similar to the Trinity River Park in that it's a large greenspace near the urban core that is also a flood zone?

I'm curious to hear the similarities, and how well it has been working out for them so far.


I wouldn't call them similar at all. Its a very nice area, but just a more narrow corridor that's surrounded by the city. IMHO, more like Turtle Creek Park + Katy Trail and how they connect with other parks as they go through their run.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby lakewoodhobo » 02 Aug 2017 09:50

It's time for Dallas to stop squabbling about the Trinity and build a park
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... build-park

I'm usually suspicious anytime the mayor comes out with some clever new plan, but if the LGC charter was changed by Angela Hunt and others to take out the road-building authority and add the ability to terminate the deal at any time, then what's there to fear? I'm hearing complaints that there isn't enough public discussion on the LGC structure, but I'm not convinced that the general public really cares that much.

At this point, the conflict seems to be between the "keep the Trinity wild" folks and the Van Valkenburgh plan supporters, which to me is ridiculous since you can have both and there's plenty of wild Trinity up and downstream from the downtown corridor. Is it unreasonable to say "just do something already"?

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 02 Aug 2017 11:42

lakewoodhobo wrote:At this point, the conflict seems to be between the "keep the Trinity wild" folks and the Van Valkenburgh plan supporters, which to me is ridiculous since you can have both and there's plenty of wild Trinity up and downstream from the downtown corridor. Is it unreasonable to say "just do something already"?



I like your idea. The Van Valkenburgh plan is a nice manicured park that surely will be popular; it potentially can be the preimere urban park in the Southern U.S. However, the importance of letting the Trinity be itself shouldn't be understated.

For so long this city, has tried to turn it into something nature didn't want it to be. I think it's imperative that the southern portion of the Trinity River ,along with the great Trinity forest , are preserved in their natural state.

Efforts to clean them up should be a priority with this project as Well.

If done right, imagine what you could have..an Ecological treasure in the heart of a major city. Rare indeed. The city should try and make the Trinity Forest a State/National Park.

Imagine going camping in your own city.. This is what Dallas needs. It's often cited as the most boring outdoors town.

This could change that.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 02 Aug 2017 17:51

Tnexster wrote:The mayor picked the right guy to finally deliver that forever-promised Trinity River park

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... river-park


He sounds like he has the passion for the job, and isn't part of the old guard that just wants another expressway with a park that is only pretty to look at while zooming down the expressway and not really functional.

My preference for the park would be for a mostly "rewilding" scenario north and south of Downtown, with ample trails and a true connection with nature. More trees, cleaner water, more rocks, serenity. However, I would like to see more of a "showcase" park in the sections of the Trinity closer to downtown. Interactive, beautiful, with programmed activities and a variety of uses.

We definitely need a swimming and watersports area. I would love to see a large spa-like linear infinity edge swimming complex along the west side of the river, overlooking the new park and downtown. I envision various sections of pools, a separate kids/family area, a spa-like area with calming music and lighting, maybe an area with a "hot springs" type pool. All with beach type entrances meaning you walk into the pools and they gradually get deeper, and sloped land areas to sunbathe with a view. Manmade, naturally, but with a natural feel. Manmade can still be cool, Austin has Deep Eddy, and Iceland has the blue lagoon which is one of the hottest tourist destinations in the world right now. This swimming complex could be a great amenity for citizens, a tourist draw, and would also naturally charge admission which could fund the operations of the complex.

Another nice feature along the river somewhere (not on the river, but next to it) would be like what Oklahoma City did with their whitewater rafting area downtown: http://www.riversportokc.org/boathouse- ... r-rafting/
That project was much better executed than Dallas' failed, expensive attempt at a much smaller whitewater feature. A public/private partnership might be good in this case to get easier funding.

We also definitely need a promenade/boardwalk running along the western bank of the river, which would give great views of the new park and skyline. The city could rent space to vendors and food trucks here.

I also wouldn't be opposed to selling small amounts of the riverfront land to developers to fund the project, as long as the project is world class. Having some restaurants and residential along the city facing part of the park would help activate the public spaces anyways.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 02 Aug 2017 17:53

Matt777 wrote:
Tnexster wrote:The mayor picked the right guy to finally deliver that forever-promised Trinity River park

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... river-park


He sounds like he has the passion for the job, and isn't part of the old guard that just wants another expressway with a park that is only pretty to look at while zooming down the expressway and not really functional.

My preference for the park would be for a mostly "rewilding" scenario north and south of Downtown, with ample trails and a true connection with nature. More trees, cleaner water, more rocks, serenity. However, I would like to see more of a "showcase" park in the sections of the Trinity closer to downtown. Interactive, beautiful, with programmed activities and a variety of uses. A huge task with any park project would be cleaning the water, and finding other ways to drain storm water. The storm water drainage is a big part of the pollution problem anyway, not to mention the flood problems it causes in the river area.

We definitely need a swimming and watersports area. I would love to see a large spa-like linear infinity edge swimming complex along the west side of the river, overlooking the new park and downtown. I envision various sections of pools, a separate kids/family area, a spa-like area with calming music and lighting, maybe an area with a "hot springs" type pool. All with beach type entrances meaning you walk into the pools and they gradually get deeper, and sloped land areas to sunbathe with a view. Manmade, naturally, but with a natural feel. Manmade can still be cool, Austin has Deep Eddy, and Iceland has the blue lagoon which is one of the hottest tourist destinations in the world right now. This swimming complex could be a great amenity for citizens, a tourist draw, and would also naturally charge admission which could fund the operations of the complex.

Another nice feature along the river somewhere (not on the river, but next to it) would be like what Oklahoma City did with their whitewater rafting area downtown: http://www.riversportokc.org/boathouse- ... r-rafting/
That project was much better executed than Dallas' failed, expensive attempt at a much smaller whitewater feature. A public/private partnership might be good in this case to get easier funding.

We also definitely need a promenade/boardwalk running along the western bank of the river, which would give great views of the new park and skyline. The city could rent space to vendors and food trucks here.

I also wouldn't be opposed to selling small amounts of the riverfront land to developers to fund the project, as long as the project is world class. Having some restaurants and residential along the city facing part of the park would help activate the public spaces anyways.

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby lakewoodhobo » 03 Aug 2017 12:24

I've always wondered whether the Corps would allow direct pedestrian access to the levees from private businesses using some type of bridge. This would be a little easier from the west side because the bridges wouldn't cross the Oncor ROW. The opportunity for parkside development would be immense.

Screen Shot 2017-08-03 at 12.19.13 PM.png
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 03 Aug 2017 13:11

Anyone know What's the plan for the electrical wires..

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 03 Aug 2017 14:03

lakewoodhobo wrote:I've always wondered whether the Corps would allow direct pedestrian access to the levees from private businesses using some type of bridge. This would be a little easier from the west side because the bridges wouldn't cross the Oncor ROW. The opportunity for parkside development would be immense.

Screen Shot 2017-08-03 at 12.19.13 PM.png


Yes, they should.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 04 Aug 2017 00:07

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Anyone know What's the plan for the electrical wires..


Get used to them. The cost to bury them would be astronomical. The city tried to get the state to spread the cost across all electrical users statewide, and got laughed at.

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dukemeredith
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby dukemeredith » 04 Aug 2017 07:32

Here's an idea of how much it would cost:

The estimated cost for constructing underground transmission lines ranges from 4 to 14 times more expensive than overhead lines of the same voltage and same distance. A typical new 69 kV overhead single-circuit transmission line costs approximately $285,000 per mile as opposed to $1.5 million per mile for a new 69 kV underground line (without the terminals). A new 138 kV overhead line costs approximately $390,000 per mile as opposed to $2 million per mile for underground (without the terminals).


http://www.elp.com/articles/powergrid_i ... ison-.html

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gshelton91
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby gshelton91 » 04 Aug 2017 09:43

@Matt777 - Interesting Ideas - I have always loved the idea of a whiteWater Rafting course near Downtown -- I had no idea that one existed up in OKC -- if they can support it i can't see why we would not be able to.

Regarding the electrical wires -- Frisco got theirs buried considering the money being spent on this project for other things I would not be against the city paying to burry them across the flood plain at least... I doubt that would be more than 1 mile. It would also really improve the redevelopment opportunities near Trinity Groves.

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 04 Aug 2017 10:20

gshelton91 wrote:@Matt777 - Interesting Ideas - I have always loved the idea of a whiteWater Rafting course near Downtown -- I had no idea that one existed up in OKC -- if they can support it i can't see why we would not be able to.

Regarding the electrical wires -- Frisco got theirs buried considering the money being spent on this project for other things I would not be against the city paying to burry them across the flood plain at least... I doubt that would be more than 1 mile. It would also really improve the redevelopment opportunities near Trinity Groves.


Previous plans for the park included a white water rafting attraction but if you look at what they did with The Standing Wave it's best that the city not is the one involved in the process. There have been some serious doubts that such an attraction can properly stand the flooding of the Trinity. Cleaning mud and tree branches off the Trinity Skyline Trail is one thing. Cleaning mud out of a white water attraction a few times of year after it has been under water for days on end is a whole other project.

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tamtagon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 04 Aug 2017 10:30

Burying the lines could come with a power grid update & renovation appealing to data centers. Turn up the power, make the juice-flow far more secure and seal the deal with the glow of renewable electricity.

It's expensive, but it's much much better.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 04 Aug 2017 13:02

cowboyeagle05 wrote:
gshelton91 wrote:@Matt777 - Interesting Ideas - I have always loved the idea of a whiteWater Rafting course near Downtown -- I had no idea that one existed up in OKC -- if they can support it i can't see why we would not be able to.

Regarding the electrical wires -- Frisco got theirs buried considering the money being spent on this project for other things I would not be against the city paying to burry them across the flood plain at least... I doubt that would be more than 1 mile. It would also really improve the redevelopment opportunities near Trinity Groves.


Previous plans for the park included a white water rafting attraction but if you look at what they did with The Standing Wave it's best that the city not is the one involved in the process. There have been some serious doubts that such an attraction can properly stand the flooding of the Trinity. Cleaning mud and tree branches off the Trinity Skyline Trail is one thing. Cleaning mud out of a white water attraction a few times of year after it has been under water for days on end is a whole other project.


The whitewater complex in OKC is not actually on the river, it's next to the river. I think the best route for the Trinity park is to make the parks and attractions on the sides of the river, raised up, and flood the rest of it permanently, kind of like Lady Bird lake in Austin. Lady Bird lake is actually an artificial reservoir, which many people don't know. If we turned the Trinity into a reservoir around downtown, with beautiful parks running along both banks, we would have a permanent waterfront like Austin does rather than a glorified drainage ditch 90% of the time, and a garbage filled reservoir 10% of the time as it is now.

I still love my idea of having a linear swimming complex running along the western bank near downtown, raised up, with an infinity edge overlooking the reservoir/park, and the skyline in the background. You could spend the day hiking/biking the new Trinity nature trails, maybe stop for some food at the boardwalk vendors, try some whitewater rafting or kayaking the new reservoir, then wind down your day with some sunset cocktails in a relaxing infinity pool, enjoying the skyline view. As it gets dark, the pool could be illuminated. This is the kind of complex that will draw millennials from across the nation and world to want to come and spend time (and $) in Dallas.

I would call the swimming complex something catchy like Trinity Springs, Trinity Lagoons, Trinity Waters. A great partner to build this complex would be the Crystal Lagoon company. They have a proven track record around the world and they're building a complex in Rockwall:

Image

Image

Image

http://www.crystal-lagoons.com/

lakewoodhobo
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby lakewoodhobo » 04 Aug 2017 16:06

Something like that would be perfect for the 505 Riverfront site.

Screen Shot 2017-08-04 at 4.04.23 PM.png
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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 04 Aug 2017 16:57

lakewoodhobo wrote:Something like that would be perfect for the 505 Riverfront site.

Screen Shot 2017-08-04 at 4.04.23 PM.png


I'd prefer the swimming feature to be on the west bank of the river, to ensure skyline views, but that 505 Riverfront site would be great for the whitewater complex and a mixed-use tower development facing Riverfront Blvd.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 04 Aug 2017 17:21

My very crude, very not to scale, very preliminary concept "art."

IMG_7921.JPG

IMG_7922.JPG

IMG_7923.JPG


I'll add that while I like the graphics presented for the "park designed to flood," a park designed to flood developed by our current leadership sounds like a guaranteed boondoggle. Not to mention, the finished product will probably be disappointing compared to the graphics, the costs to build way above projections, and the cost to repair it after each flood will probably be abhorrent. With the reservoir concept, we don't have to worry about that. Yes, infrastructure to build a reservoir wall and boardwalk will be expensive, but it would probably be less in the long run. Also, being able to sell/lease out space along the boardwalk will generate income for operations, and I think the features could be done with public/private partnerships that will reduce the need for city fund investments, and the features will be ran more efficiently (lagoon complex, whitewater park, etc).
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tamtagon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 05 Aug 2017 10:03

Outstanding vision Matt777.

The height of the levees and protective no-build zones would have to be taken into accounted; Trinity Infinity Lagoons is a prefect match to a managed wilderness and/or reservoir. Yin and Yang.

Makes me wonder if the indoor/outdoor ski slopes resort hotel would be part of the same complex, or a separate next-door entity. The tourist potential of an actual park destination is off the charts, relative to the rest of North Texas. All of this, of course is dependent on a naturally sustaining system of flash flood mitigation. I still think a recycling series of cisterns, tunnels, canals and pumps will be necessary to transport seasonal flash flood water to downstream wetland sequestration; good old-fashioned windmills pump the clean water back upstream during the dry summer. Not only will the Trinity ditch become a managed wilderness and reservoir functioning as a flood control device, it will become play an active role in point-source drinking water.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dall ... ar-9730235

Their Trinity Toll Road was a Package of Lies. Now We Trust Them on the Park?

FRIDAY, AUGUST 4, 2017
BY JIM SCHUTZE

...Now the mayor wants to fence them out and turn the river over to the same people who wanted to kill it.

Here’s a prediction: The mayor’s park plan will not stand. If it takes another 20 years, that plan will not stand.


This prediction from Jim Schutze it bankable truth. Turning over park operations to the dinosaur-act which attempted to make it a tolled highway cannot be allowed.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Aug 2017 11:33

Every projection for a reservoir project on the Dallas part of the Trinity as far as I have researched has clearly stated its just not a viable project. A true reservoir on the scale of let's say Austin would require clearing out significant flood zones of wildlife and trees. The Largest Hardwood forest thing that Dallas raves about which actually is a great amenity would have to be removed. The sheer amount of flood waters Dallas deals with on its section alone is only compounded by the fact that Fort Worth, Arlington, Grand Prarie and Irving feed tons of water into the flood zone so Fort Worths side stays relatively uncompounded because they don't have the entire suburban area dumping their rain water above stream like Dallas gets fed. Not to mention the Army Corp of Engineers are a quite different group than 20-50 years ago. Environmental law as well even with our current administration is quite a hard thing to move upstream against.

Honestly, we messed up that area when we tried to tell mother earth how to run things decades ago when we straightened out the river. I understand the desire for a lakefront/river front but it's not a viable option or the big guys would have been promising it in renderings decades ago. Notice not a single vision truly suggested this even with all the fantasy designs that have been drawn up. There is something that tells every single designer/engineer that a body of dammed water is not possible.

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muncien
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby muncien » 07 Aug 2017 12:30

I'm just hoping that the 'meander' is reinstated. I could live without any significant ponds or lakes, but if the river stays as straight as it is, any park will be limited in character. So long as that meander is still a requirement from the corps, it should get going asap. Immediately afterwards, we need to get busy planting trees as it'll take some time for any new trees to reach a beneficial size. If we know the path of the eventual meander, we could even start planting today...

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 07 Aug 2017 14:57

Almost anything is possible with the right engineering. I'm tired of the pessimism in this city. We can find a more modern way to deal with flood drainage. One that doesn't force us to have a toxic wasteland running right through the center of our city. Design that solution, then design the park around the solution.

We can't be the only big city in the world forced to use our riverfront as a drainage ditch. I haven't seen it anywhere else, at least not as poorly done as ours. It could be an issue of lack of leadership, money, willpower. But the Trinity is certainly not the way it is because there aren't any other options.

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whi5125
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby whi5125 » 20 Sep 2017 14:12

So....I am kind of surprised no one here has mentioned that the Trinity Tollway is now dead, meaning this can actually truly happen.

What is the latest news on this ? Anything from City Hall?

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 20 Sep 2017 14:23

Matt777 wrote:We can't be the only big city in the world forced to use our riverfront as a drainage ditch. I haven't seen it anywhere else, at least not as poorly done as ours


I take it you've never been to Los Angeles.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 20 Sep 2017 14:41

whi5125 wrote:So....I am kind of surprised no one here has mentioned that the Trinity Tollway is now dead, meaning this can actually truly happen.

What is the latest news on this ? Anything from City Hall?


I think The forum's General sentiment is Cautiously Optimistic. But you Can't ever rule out a Dallas Back Door deal to keep the toll road alive.

Slightly off topic.. what's the deal with the Margaret McDermott bridge? It's scheduled completion was this summer.. and well summer's basically over.

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Matt777
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Matt777 » 20 Sep 2017 23:53

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Matt777 wrote:We can't be the only big city in the world forced to use our riverfront as a drainage ditch. I haven't seen it anywhere else, at least not as poorly done as ours


I take it you've never been to Los Angeles.


They have the beaches to distract you, to the point of saying "what river?"

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The_Overdog
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Sep 2017 17:08

They have the beaches to distract you, to the point of saying "what river?"


They also should not be the model of managing an urban river but the Titanic of sorts. My SoCal relatives have a 'drainage ditch' in their backyard and running through their entire town and most aren't even aware it is an actual river, and it is sadder and probably more polluted than The Trinity.


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