Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Trinity River Park

User avatar
casperitl
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Dec 2016 15:41

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 27 Aug 2018 15:41

It sure is a river bottom. It has been a river bottom since the end of the last Ice Age. Or longer. Matter of fact one can find the ancient meanders of the river inside the floodplain where the man made current channel resides.

User avatar
NdoorTX
Posts: 102
Joined: 21 Nov 2016 02:27

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby NdoorTX » 27 Aug 2018 16:53

Interesting discussion. I would have been all for the amenities and extravagances originally proposed if you had asked me a year ago. Now with all the delays, expense and possibility of having to reconstruct the features every so often after a flood, I am for a more natural looking and feeling Trinity River as it meanders by DTD. I had a hard time imagining how attractive a meandering, narrow river with grassy fields and the occasional stand of trees would be appealing. But having come from a trip to the Rockies ( Vail, Avon, Edwards specifically) I think this is by far the best solution. The Colorado River and it's tributary streams were SO LOVELY and appealing as they wound their way through the fields at the foothills of the mountains. It would seem "naturalizing" the Trinity would be the most eco-friendly, cost efficient and quickest way to get our dream park. Bring back a more natural course, add groves of trees where aesthetically pleasing and let the bottoms grow without mowing and landscaping- perfect! Granted, there won't be a Rocky Mountain backdrop- but a Dallas skyline is hard to beat too.

Tnexster
Posts: 1661
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 16:33
Location: Dallas

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 27 Aug 2018 21:41

NdoorTX wrote:Interesting discussion. I would have been all for the amenities and extravagances originally proposed if you had asked me a year ago. Now with all the delays, expense and possibility of having to reconstruct the features every so often after a flood, I am for a more natural looking and feeling Trinity River as it meanders by DTD. I had a hard time imagining how attractive a meandering, narrow river with grassy fields and the occasional stand of trees would be appealing. But having come from a trip to the Rockies ( Vail, Avon, Edwards specifically) I think this is by far the best solution. The Colorado River and it's tributary streams were SO LOVELY and appealing as they wound their way through the fields at the foothills of the mountains. It would seem "naturalizing" the Trinity would be the most eco-friendly, cost efficient and quickest way to get our dream park. Bring back a more natural course, add groves of trees where aesthetically pleasing and let the bottoms grow without mowing and landscaping- perfect! Granted, there won't be a Rocky Mountain backdrop- but a Dallas skyline is hard to beat too.


Very nice, could not have said it better.

User avatar
whit5125
Posts: 34
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 09:54

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby whit5125 » 28 Aug 2018 08:59

Really the natural meandering river with maybe a park extended from one of the banks but still raised to avoid flooding will probably be what happens, with likely a return of the multiple urban lakes ideas in conjunction which really wouldnt be bad, so long as they also planted the necessary trees. Essentially the old balanced vision...

Image

Though the more I think about it just pulling a lady bird is doable and those embankments make it actually not that hard to pull off, again we are talking a shallow lake, nothing you can take your speed boat out on.

I mean these proposals actually wouldnt be hard to pull off (the development aside), and with the tollroad gone that gives even more room and makes them cheaper to pull off.

Image

Image

Its sort of odd that at the heart of it, simply building simple lakes and planting some trees are what the actual use of the Trinity is for these projects once you look past the now dead tollway and the development on the river banks...and they are the cheaper options.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 1068
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Aug 2018 09:54

Replace the tollway with a boardwalk. Build lakes and plant trees. Call it a day. We'd be good with that.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1440
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 28 Aug 2018 10:17

I like how everyone has the instant solution because we are all frustrated with a lack of any plan actually moving forward except the bridges. Keep in mind everyone with your "visioning" the Army Corp of Engineers has a lot of NO's when it comes to what can be done between the levees and to the levees. No plant life except grass on the levees, mowing is a requirement according to the last I checked between the levees. Also, they have to approve of any new trees to be planted inside the flood zone in case they negatively affect the flow of water and/or safety. The Army Corp of Engineers primary goal is to make sure the tons of water that fills those levees several times a year doesn't flood Downtown and become Katrina part deux Dallas Edition. All the other stuff people have being fantasizing about is just kids stuff.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 1068
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Aug 2018 10:20

cowboyeagle05 wrote:I like how everyone has the instant solution because we are all frustrated with a lack of any plan actually moving forward except the bridges. Keep in mind everyone with your "visioning" the Army Corp of Engineers has a lot of NO's when it comes to what can be done between the levees and to the levees. No plant life except grass on the levees, mowing is a requirement according to the last I checked between the levees. Also, they have to approve of any new trees to be planted inside the flood zone in case they negatively affect the flow of water and/or safety. The Army Corp of Engineers primary goal is to make sure the tons of water that fills those levees several times a year doesn't flood Downtown and become Katrina part deux Dallas Edition. All the other stuff people have being fantasizing about is just kids stuff.


It's free to dream bro.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 723
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Cypress Waters

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby muncien » 28 Aug 2018 11:21

Just to be clear... The Corps of Engineers plan for the trinity river requires hundreds of acres of forested wetlands to be planted within the floodway. The purpose is to filter the water, prevent erosion, capture nutrients, support habitat, and manage river flow speeds.
Some of that information can be found here... https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/47/docs/Environmental/DF/DFP-EIS_App-H_Supplemental-Bio-Res-Info.pdf
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 289
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 28 Aug 2018 12:01

Ah, the mythical lakes.

There's never been a plan to build lakes. The so-called lakes were what we in Texas call stock ponds. Say "lake" and people think White Rock. In actuality all the proposed ponds total about 1/3 the size of Bachman. Combined. Puddles with delusions of grandeur. Because of the underlying sand they could only be a few feet deep. Oh, and they had to be a large distance away from the river so that floods wouldn't erode the land between and merge them into the river, and a large distance away from any of the bridges to they didn't jeopardize their pier. Oh, and they were to be filled with piped in water because the Trinity water is too polluted.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 723
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Cypress Waters

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby muncien » 28 Aug 2018 12:26

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Ah, the mythical lakes.

There's never been a plan to build lakes. The so-called lakes were what we in Texas call stock ponds. Say "lake" and people think White Rock. In actuality all the proposed ponds total about 1/3 the size of Bachman. Combined. Puddles with delusions of grandeur. Because of the underlying sand they could only be a few feet deep. Oh, and they had to be a large distance away from the river so that floods wouldn't erode the land between and merge them into the river, and a large distance away from any of the bridges to they didn't jeopardize their pier. Oh, and they were to be filled with piped in water because the Trinity water is too polluted.


Well, technically the corps' approved plan has the three main lakes with a combined total of 256 acres of 'open water' (12-18 feet deep), compared to Bachman lake's 205 acres (less than 14 feet deep). That doesn't include the adjacent 'wetlands'.

None of these particular 'lakes' are sizable anyway.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 289
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 28 Aug 2018 13:22

What the corp approved isn't what they city eventually went with:

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dal ... ns-7119188

"The Trinity River lakes were never going to be humongous. Seventy-five or 80 acres each, according to the Balanced Vision Plan developed for the Trinity River Corridor Project in 2003. But now the plans have been reduced to something so small -- a couple of 20-acre ponds reaching a depth of 10 feet -- it's fair to wonder if it's even worth building."

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1440
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 31 Aug 2018 09:03

Email I got this morning. If you haven't noticed the new way forward is a public equity campaign to finally actually talk to the community on what they want to see and have regular events in the park as it is already. Bike rides, picnics etc. Brent Brown from The City Design Studio and Bc Workshop is spearheading things so it's not surprising his management of the project is a little more on the ground level than previous top-down efforts. I plan to attend these meetings if I can make it.

Screen Shot 2018-08-31 at 8.20.36 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-31 at 8.20.48 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-31 at 8.20.14 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-31 at 8.20.59 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-31 at 9.04.11 AM.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 1068
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 31 Aug 2018 09:25

I Prolly will never call it Harold Simmons Park.

User avatar
Cbdallas
Posts: 217
Joined: 29 Nov 2016 16:42

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Cbdallas » 31 Aug 2018 12:32

If nothing else we need to build this park just for all the instagram photo opportunities.

User avatar
casperitl
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Dec 2016 15:41

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 31 Aug 2018 14:18

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:I Prolly will never call it Harold Simmons Park.


How can an area be called a "park" when it is not governed by the Park Board. The Dallas City Charter has this outlined very clearly.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 356
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby The_Overdog » 31 Aug 2018 15:47

Well, technically the corps' approved plan has the three main lakes with a combined total of 256 acres of 'open water' (12-18 feet deep), compared to Bachman lake's 205 acres (less than 14 feet deep).


None of the lakes in north Texas are particularly deep either. Lavon's max depth is 60 feet, average depth is closer to 20. Ray Hubbard's max depth is only 40 feet. White Rock Lake's max depth is 20 feet. TX Parks and Wildlife says Lake Bachman's max depth is 14 feet.

Tnexster
Posts: 1661
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 16:33
Location: Dallas

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 31 Aug 2018 16:20

Do they really care about public input or is this just an exercise to make us think they care about it?

User avatar
casperitl
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Dec 2016 15:41

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 19 Sep 2018 16:16


cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1440
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 24 Sep 2018 09:00

Tnexster wrote:Do they really care about public input or is this just an exercise to make us think they care about it?


Brent Brown who is in charge of the private group now charged with developing plans does care. He ran the City Design Studio and Better Block both of which are authentic organizations which tend to be void of too much political wrangling. Better Blocks main skill has been their authenticity and ability to work with the public and gather input. This will def be a challenge for him as it has so many demons in the closet and business leaders who will want him to go one way vs what the public wants. In the end it will come down to the money. If Brent Brown cannot raise the funds to build the park he will design based on public input then it won't matter how much he cares or that he worked hard to get a public consensus.

User avatar
whi5125
Posts: 22
Joined: 20 Sep 2017 14:06

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby whi5125 » 18 Oct 2018 10:24

So since those meetings have started taking place, have we heard any rumblings or updates about this project?

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 289
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 05 Dec 2018 18:11

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/archite ... for-dallas

Just dumping more taxpayer dollars into a drainage ditch. Anything they do will be destroyed by the first spring flood.

User avatar
dan.man.
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 Oct 2018 15:36

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby dan.man. » 05 Dec 2018 22:48

I'm not so sure that either of those statements will come to be true.

1. The park is being built with privately raised funds.
2. The article makes it sound like the designers and engineers on the project are very much aware of the fact that this is a floodplain and have very consciously designed the park to work with the floods.

This park has massive potential and will be a complete game changer once it's finished.

The Trinity Park Conservancy is hosting at first look at the park tomorrow from 5:30-8:00 at Gilley's Dallas, which should be really interesting.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1389
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 06 Dec 2018 06:53

Just like the Cowboys season, I'm too beat-down by a generation of losing to get excited by what seems like the right plan for this public wilderness! I will skeptically wait to see the rest of it, especially how the levee-filling choke point at the standing wave entrance to the forest will be corrected.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 1068
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 06 Dec 2018 10:14

tamtagon wrote:Just like the Cowboys season, I'm too beat-down by a generation of losing to get excited by what seems like the right plan for this public wilderness! I will skeptically wait to see the rest of it, especially how the levee-filling choke point at the standing wave entrance to the forest will be corrected.


Haha.

User avatar
whit5125
Posts: 34
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 09:54

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby whit5125 » 06 Dec 2018 10:23

this is absolutely fantastic news. I can't wait to see what it looks like.

This project will absolutely be transformative for Dallas and make the city so much prettier.

with this complete by 2022 if they hit their targeted date...i wonder what will happen south of the Margaret McDermott bridge in addition to the water gardens going in there and the Texas Eye project and redevelopment, and if the park could simply be extended etc.

I bet in the next decade those banks of the river will start to be filled with development that will make Dallas unrecognizable in 20 years...in a great way....when combined with the existing projects happening in the Cedars, the high speed rail station, water gardens and everything else.

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 06 Dec 2018 12:22

The plan looks great to me! For once we seem to have a realistic project with a realistic timeline, so I'm a bit more optimistic than usual.

Among the most significant design elements to be introduced is a series of new pedestrian bridges that will link east to west, providing low-altitude views and access to the park spaces below. "The floodway gets a lot more little floods than big floods," says Van Valkenburgh, "and the bridges have the advantage of greatly increasing the number of days that the park is accessible."

They will land at the tops of the levees, which will be buttressed and extended out to connect with the city. Here, easily accessible on overlooks above flood level, will be playgrounds, cafes, performance spaces, and other amenities.


I'm really liking the sound of this. I'm assuming that the potential playgrounds, cafes, and other amenities are not a part of the initial project, and they are just talking about possibilities that other developers can provide?
Last edited by DPatel304 on 06 Dec 2018 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
casperitl
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Dec 2016 15:41

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 06 Dec 2018 21:25

Totally unrealistic timeline given the need for permitting and review.

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Dec 2018 11:08

Did anyone attend the reveal last night? I was hoping there would be more information released after it, but I'm not seeing anything.

User avatar
quixomniac
Posts: 10
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 21:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 07 Dec 2018 15:47

If anyone has better pictures than the DMN article, that would be much appreciated.
It's hard to gauge what exactly is planned from what's been shown so far.
It just looks like one cross section of one specific place.

User avatar
dan.man.
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 Oct 2018 15:36

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby dan.man. » 07 Dec 2018 19:06

This gives a good summary of last night's event.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... ity-river/

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Dec 2018 20:33

Thanks for the article. Random question, but is there any specific reason why, when talking about the park, the boundaries are always in between the Pedestrian Bridge and I-30? I'm just curious. I realize even just that portion is massive and turning it into a park is a huge project, but further up north the park borders the Design District and further south you hit the Cedars as well as the upcoming Water Garden and Texas Odyssey projects.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 1440
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Dec 2018 20:59

I think it's about limiting the size to contain the budget and achievability. We have long planned to redevelop the Trinity from top to bottom from Irving to almost I-20 depending on which design you look at from the past and the budget gets bigger every time. Now we have almost no public money to use and nothing to show for it and its long been held back by trying to do too much.

Here they want to get something started by 2020 and are asking to raise 100 million to go along with the 50 million already donated. The shorter section means IF they can get this section funded and built then they can more likely get more donations for extending the park further north and south.

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Dec 2018 21:17

Yeah I figured as much, and that makes complete sense. Thanks!

User avatar
casperitl
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Dec 2016 15:41

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 10 Dec 2018 08:17

quixomniac wrote:If anyone has better pictures than the DMN article, that would be much appreciated.
It's hard to gauge what exactly is planned from what's been shown so far.
It just looks like one cross section of one specific place.


The cross-section is all that was presented.

User avatar
quixomniac
Posts: 10
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 21:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 10 Dec 2018 15:42

I suppose we will see more in the future? Or have the "lakes"/ponds been dropped off all together?
Is this Angela Hunt's re-wilding angle? I remember a D-Observer article mentioning two groups designing two different park concepts.

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 10 Dec 2018 16:57

Image
Image
Image

I believe this is all we have been shown right now. Looks like there is a decent amount of info, but the text is too small to read, unfortunately. It sounds like the idea is to make most of the park wild, and atop the levees we'll see more man-made structures like playgrounds, performance spaces, cafes, etc..

User avatar
Henry C Long
Posts: 1
Joined: 10 Dec 2018 19:20

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Henry C Long » 10 Dec 2018 19:34

You've got to wonder how solid their engineering and research if they believe the 1908 flood killed 5,000 and they are comparing the 30 foot levee height to the 52.6 foot Trinity River crest . . .
or maybe is it just sloppy writing and editing by D Magazine.

=============

Dekker, the environmental engineer from LimnoTech, walked through a history of the river—the city’s clear desire to “be one on the river,” with aspirations to grow. And then there was the 1908 flood, which killed 5,000 of the town’s 90,000 residents and destroyed millions of dollars of property. The flood led to city planner George Kessler’s plan for Dallas, which called for moving the river and straightening it so that it didn’t meander so closely to downtown. He also ordered it to be confined by 30-foot-tall levees to its east and west. They were completed in 1932. During the 1908 storm, the Trinity bulged to a depth of 52.6 feet and a width of 1.5 miles; a rain event that heavy has not happened since.

Tnexster
Posts: 1661
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 16:33
Location: Dallas

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 10 Dec 2018 21:39

If we get another rain event like 1908 I'd hate to think of what else could happen. That would put everything that was under water then under water again which would likely stretch all the way to Fort Worth. Not to even mention issues like the Lake Lewisville dam.

DPatel304
Posts: 1073
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 11 Dec 2018 00:03

Here is a more critical article on the latest renderings:
https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/van ... r-11407004

The article criticizes the plan for being too artificial and likens it to 'six flags', which seems odd to me. From what I've seen, it seems like they are taking more of the 're-wild' approach, which is a really good thing. I know they mention some man-made structures, but, it seems like those would all be on top of or outside the levees, and the actual trinity river area would remain pretty wild.

Based on this quote, it really just seems like the author is trying really hard to criticize this new plan:
"So the total going in, even before the inevitable change-orders and elaborations, is $150 million to create a park on only 200 of the 10,000 acres that the city needs to manage one way or another."

Everything that is being said could apply to the older rendering which feature the jugglers and rock climbing, but this new one seems to be a lot more reasonable. Then again, I was not at the event, nor have really seen much, in terms of detailed information on the park.

User avatar
quixomniac
Posts: 10
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 21:24

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 11 Dec 2018 02:27

[quote
Henry C Long wrote:You've got to wonder how solid their engineering and research if they believe the 1908 flood killed 5,000 and they are comparing the 30 foot levee height to the 52.6 foot Trinity River crest . . .
or maybe is it just sloppy writing and editing by D Magazine.


This 1908 flood record of 52.6 feet is before the realignment of the Trinity, which prompted the building of the levees. I would think they would design the levees to protect the city from that type of flood. The last time we came that close was in 1990 with a crest of 47 feet, which did some flooding damage, but nothing on the scale of 1990. https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrogr ... t2&wfo=fwd

When you are accounting for the crest total height, you have to also take into account that the river is now set below ground level to give it an extra ~20ft. so 20+30= 50?

DPatel304 wrote:Here is a more critical article on the latest renderings:
https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/van ... r-11407004

The article criticizes the plan for being too artificial and likens it to 'six flags', which seems odd to me. From what I've seen, it seems like they are taking more of the 're-wild' approach, which is a really good thing. I know they mention some man-made structures, but, it seems like those would all be on top of or outside the levees, and the actual trinity river area would remain pretty wild.


Thanks for the pictures, those are the ones I keep finding, but no newspaper thought of putting up decent resolution versions of them which makes most of their article useless if you have a hard time reading the diagram. I was hoping there was a city document somewhere so we can zoom in.

But yes sometimes the Dallas Observer tries too hard to be the "cool cynical" newspaper. The diagram is much closer to re-wilding than 6 flags.

User avatar
dan.man.
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 Oct 2018 15:36

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby dan.man. » 11 Dec 2018 08:11

They also mentioned at the event that the 1908 flood happened before the construction of the reservoirs around the city, which now control the volume of water flowing into the Trinity from the northern part of DFW. Prior to the construction of those, there was no buffer and all of the rain water would flow into the Trinity as quickly as it could, which contributed to the 52.6 foot crest.

Besides, they are planning on expanding the actual river channel and adding some side river channels which will make flooding events less severe.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1389
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 11 Dec 2018 09:16

There's no reason this man-made flood plane cannot become a primary component in the conditioning of potable water for the region. Rewilding this five-ish miles of river returns the natural filtration process to help clean the water.

I've dreamed of a series of cisterns and catacombs under the flood plane to have handy ample water during the summer dry season and to rapidly channel flash flood excess downstream, but I understand that may cost too much (the cool factor would be off the chart, though). A critical system to all the various clean water rafting installations was pumping water upstream from the water treatment facility. That system should still be installed, but made two way -- multiple strategic intake station along the leveed river lead the flash flood water into gravity assisted pipes to a series of downstream wetland cells; the spring flooding excess is mostly contained until the summer drought at which point it is pumped back to the leveed section of the river and released when needed through collection of "Texas Sized" rain-shower water sprinklers that people can play in while the park is watered.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login