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DFW Airport

Tnexster
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DFW Airport

Postby Tnexster » 27 Oct 2016 09:30

DFW Airport gets $40 million in FAA grants to improve runway, taxiway

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw- ... ay-taxiway

DFW Airport is getting $40 million from the Federal Aviation Administration for a number of infrastructure upgrades, including rehabilitating one of the airport’s key runways.

The grant funding, which comes through the FAA’s Airport Improvement Program, was announced Wednesday.

Half of the funds will go toward the expansion of an aircraft apron, commonly known as the tarmac, south of Terminal D.

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art_suckz
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby art_suckz » 28 Oct 2016 15:37

Interesting read.

http://urbanland.uli.org/infrastructure ... otropolis/

Evolution of an Aerotropolis

By Patrick J. Kiger
October 27, 2016

A template already existed in Europe’s mostly privatized airports, which typically depend on aviation to cover about 30 percent of their expenses, according to Brian Carroll, a vice president of the public institutions group at the Chicago office of business services firm JLL, which advises management teams at numerous airports. The other 70 percent, he says, comes from a variety of sources, including concessions, industrial and commercial real estate leases, and developing office buildings on unused airport land. “America is roughly the inverse, though we’re getting better,” he says.

DFW, which had thousands of available acres upon which to build, was well positioned to follow that model.
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To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

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Boomerreed
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Boomerreed » 28 Oct 2016 22:44

Expansion of the apron south of Terminal D could be a precursor to Terminal F coming to fruition in the next couple of years. I honestly do hope so and further the growth of the market and increase competition.

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tamtagon
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 03 Feb 2017 10:28

This is probably a really big deal, ice breaker of a sort, perhaps leading to DFW becoming a much more prominent cargo airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... o-add.html

Dallas Fort Worth International Airport to add refrigeration facilities to serve cargo customers
Feb 3, 2017
Bill Hethcock -- Dallas Business Journal

Dallas Fort Worth International Airport will install a cold chain facility that will allow cargo and logistics customers to ship perishable items through one of the world’s biggest international gateways ... operated by AirLogistix USA ... give DFW Airport the ability to precisely control warehousing temperatures for shipments of pharmaceuticals, flowers and fresh foods.

...Today, DFW Airport handles 66 percent of the air cargo from Texas, and its cargo tonnage increased by more than 8 percent over last year and is up 18 percent this year ... DFW handles more than 794,600 U.S. tons of air freight...Fourteen dedicated freighters serve 22 major cargo hubs throughout Asia, Europe and North America from DFW. Aircraft belly cargo capacity is also available to more than 200 global destinations on the 26 passenger airlines that serve the airport.


While build-out of Terminal F has been an ongoing discussion for a couple years now, I wonder what is the condition of DFW's cargo infrastructure. Just now gaining the ability to keep refrigerated incoming cargo make me wonder what other capabilities need to be added and/or improved. Increasing international cargo movement through DFW could easily transform the airport's global position. International passengers increase as trade movement increases, drawing an even greater number of airline operators to DFW.

Certainly oneworld members will have a welcome mat for increasing the dual cargo and passenger movement through DFW with the pervasive domestic reach of American, but bringing more SkyTeam carriers to the airport will not only expand the reach to the world from North Texas but solidify DFW (again) as a dual hub airport.

While the build-out of Terminal F has been a thing for a couple years now, it's heady to think that passenger and cargo infrastructure expansion may be the next big project, even bigger than the current terminals renovation project.
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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 03 Feb 2017 11:24

tamtagon wrote:This is probably a really big deal, ice breaker of a sort, perhaps leading to DFW becoming a much more prominent cargo airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... o-add.html

Dallas Fort Worth International Airport to add refrigeration facilities to serve cargo customers
Feb 3, 2017
Bill Hethcock -- Dallas Business Journal

Dallas Fort Worth International Airport will install a cold chain facility that will allow cargo and logistics customers to ship perishable items through one of the world’s biggest international gateways ... operated by AirLogistix USA ... give DFW Airport the ability to precisely control warehousing temperatures for shipments of pharmaceuticals, flowers and fresh foods.

...Today, DFW Airport handles 66 percent of the air cargo from Texas, and its cargo tonnage increased by more than 8 percent over last year and is up 18 percent this year ... DFW handles more than 794,600 U.S. tons of air freight...Fourteen dedicated freighters serve 22 major cargo hubs throughout Asia, Europe and North America from DFW. Aircraft belly cargo capacity is also available to more than 200 global destinations on the 26 passenger airlines that serve the airport.


While build-out of Terminal F has been an ongoing discussion for a couple years now, I wonder what is the condition of DFW's cargo infrastructure. Just now gaining the ability to keep refrigerated incoming cargo make me wonder what other capabilities need to be added and/or improved. Increasing international cargo movement through DFW could easily transform the airport's global position. International passengers increase as trade movement increases, drawing an even greater number of airline operators to DFW.

Certainly oneworld members will have a welcome mat for increasing the dual cargo and passenger movement through DFW with the pervasive domestic reach of American, but bringing more SkyTeam carriers to the airport will not only expand the reach to the world from North Texas but solidify DFW (again) as a dual hub airport.

While the build-out of Terminal F has been a thing for a couple years now, it's heady to think that passenger and cargo infrastructure expansion may be the next big project, even bigger than the current terminals renovation project.


I think someone needs to do some fact-checking (I'm referring to the author of the DBJ article). I'm highly skeptical of the statement that DFW handles 66 % of the air cargo from Texas; I can find no support for that claim anywhere and the information in the FAA page linked below seems to completely disprove it. And I'm wondering where he came up with 794,600 tons of air freight.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... rports.pdf

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tamtagon
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 03 Feb 2017 12:14

Tucy wrote:I think someone needs to do some fact-checking (I'm referring to the author of the DBJ article). I'm highly skeptical of the statement that DFW handles 66 % of the air cargo from Texas; I can find no support for that claim anywhere and the information in the FAA page linked below seems to completely disprove it. And I'm wondering where he came up with 794,600 tons of air freight.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... rports.pdf


ya totally

maybe they meant North Texas...

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 03 Feb 2017 12:39

tamtagon wrote:
Tucy wrote:I think someone needs to do some fact-checking (I'm referring to the author of the DBJ article). I'm highly skeptical of the statement that DFW handles 66 % of the air cargo from Texas; I can find no support for that claim anywhere and the information in the FAA page linked below seems to completely disprove it. And I'm wondering where he came up with 794,600 tons of air freight.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... rports.pdf


ya totally

maybe they meant North Texas...


Hasn't been a good week for Dallas business journalism.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby The_Overdog » 03 Feb 2017 12:40

Per that list (unless i missed one) 66% of North TX is incorrect as well. DFW handles 38% of TX freight. Or 81% of DFW freight, with Ft Worth 19% and Love not listed.

airport 2015 freight percent
DFW 3,328,784,075 0.383210074
houston 1,746,475,356 0.20105448
ft worth 775,382,804 0.089262173
san ant 775,121,718 0.089232117
el paso 518,866,006 0.059731925
austin 498,446,900 0.057381275
laredo 428,871,493 0.049371744
lubbock 355,210,987 0.040891937
harlingen 241,223,650 0.027769699
brownsville 18,194,698 0.002094576
8,686,577,687 1

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The_Overdog
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby The_Overdog » 03 Feb 2017 12:41

Per that list (unless i missed one) 66% of North TX is incorrect as well. DFW handles 38% of TX freight. Or 81% of DFW freight, with Ft Worth 19% and Love not listed.

airport 2015 freight percent
DFW 3,328,784,075 0.38
houston 1,746,475,356 0.20
ft worth 775,382,804 0.09
san ant 775,121,718 0.09
el paso 518,866,006 0.06
austin 498,446,900 0.06
laredo 428,871,493 0.05
lubbock 355,210,987 0.04
harlingen 241,223,650 0.03
brownsville 18,194,698 0.00
8,686,577,687 1.00

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tnexster » 10 Feb 2017 11:33

Trump airport stimulus could speed construction of 6th terminal at DFW International

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... on-of.html

For DFW Airport, an increase in federal aviation dollars could permit or speed the construction of a sixth terminal, Hegarty said.

He declined to give even a ballpark estimate of the cost of a new terminal. The last terminal constructed at DFW Airport, Terminal D, opened 12 years ago at a cost of $1.2 billion at the time, but terminal costs vary extremely widely based on size, design, location and other factors.

The airport is in discussions with its largest tenant, American Airlines, about possibly building a sixth terminal, DFW Airport CEO Sean Donohue has said.

With the area’s population and economic growth, the airport’s existing 165 gates will not be enough to handle the region’s projected growth, he said. The proposed Terminal F could add about 30 gates. Donohue said in past discussions that he hopes to open a new terminal early in 2020 or soon after.

The airport served roughly 65 million passengers in 2016 and is projected to grow to 70 million passengers annually in the next five to ten years.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby electricron » 11 Feb 2017 04:53

While I'm all for expanding DFW, I certainly would like to see Terminal C refurbished before starting construction on Terminal F.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 11 Feb 2017 08:58

Tnexster wrote:Trump airport stimulus could speed construction of 6th terminal at DFW International

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... on-of.html

...With the area’s population and economic growth, the airport’s existing 165 gates will not be enough to handle the region’s projected growth, he said. The proposed Terminal F could add about 30 gates. Donohue said in past discussions that he hopes to open a new terminal early in 2020 or soon after.


I wonder if 30 more gates will be enough to handle the region's projected growth. I suppose if Love Field is allowed to double capacity, and a new commercial airport in McKinney or Fort Worth provides what Love Field has today, then 30 more gates at DFW could be enough, but I don't know.

Before DFW reaches the 10 million residents, the flying public will supply the demand for two hubs to operate at DFW, oneworld and most likely SkyTeam.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby xen0blue » 10 Mar 2017 14:06

So it looks like the planned AirBerlin(?) route from DFW to Dusseldorf, Germany was canceled. What a bummer.

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I45Tex
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby I45Tex » 27 Apr 2017 15:30

I stay out of the airports conversations, but I have been wondering lately what the maximum passenger capacity of DFW will be. I know there must be a lot of variables, including:

air traffic control spacing
taxiway and runway infrastructure for aircraft movements
terminal capacity
noise control regimes
number of passengers per aircraft

I would guess, since DFW was originally planned for as many as 13 terminals and 260 gates, and since we are already the second highest capacity site on the continent in terms of ATC operations (after Denver), that the second and fourth variables would be the constraining ones here.

[url]When Terminal D was beginning, there was talk of an eighth runway breaking ground as well:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 74172.html[/url]

I suppose future terminals will be catering to A380s and other similar models; we have seven runways but some airports with as few as two or three (DXB, for instance) already exceed our annual traffic simply due to larger aircraft.

At any rate, what is the likely range of upper limits for DFW annual traffic?

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 27 Apr 2017 16:01

I45Tex wrote:I stay out of the airports conversations, but I have been wondering lately what the maximum passenger capacity of DFW will be. I know there must be a lot of variables, including:

air traffic control spacing
taxiway and runway infrastructure for aircraft movements
terminal capacity
noise control regimes
number of passengers per aircraft

I would guess, since DFW was originally planned for as many as 13 terminals and 260 gates, and since we are already the second highest capacity site on the continent in terms of ATC operations (after Denver), that the second and fourth variables would be the constraining ones here.

[url]When Terminal D was beginning, there was talk of an eighth runway breaking ground as well:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 74172.html[/url]

I suppose future terminals will be catering to A380s and other similar models; we have seven runways but some airports with as few as two or three (DXB, for instance) already exceed our annual traffic simply due to larger aircraft.

At any rate, what is the likely range of upper limits for DFW annual traffic?


As your question kind of suggested, I think there are probably too many variables to allow for even a good guess.

Do you have a source for that ATC operations ranking? (I wouldn't be very surprised to see DFW no.2, but it seems unlikely that Denver would be No. 1)

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby I45Tex » 27 Apr 2017 16:57

I was hoping someone could link me to an analysis (that must exist somewhere) like this one, which I've since found for LAX: http://www.scag.ca.gov/Documents/Analys ... raints.pdf


My source for that claim was page 10 of this file:
https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... s-2014.pdf

FAA 2014.png
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 29 Apr 2017 06:53

My mistake. I thought you were saying DEN and DFW were no. 1 and 2 in actual aircraft operations. I see you are talking about capacity for operations. Thanks.

Interesting that DFW's capacity is so impacted by conditions.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 29 Apr 2017 08:39

DFW has 3 Cat III approaches while DEN has 4 Cat III approaches (approach required in dense fog). That likely contributes to the ~54 difference in capacity in instrument conditions on page 12 of the linked PDF above. Throw in the fact that DFW has to fight with DAL for airspace while DEN is essentially all there is. It's nothing like NYC, but 200+ flights trying to get into the same airspace does make things a little more hectic during thunderstorms.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 29 Apr 2017 11:13

I'm still not buying the future of this airport as a single alliance hub.

Air carriers as well as the host population center will effectively require DFW to accommodate major connecting hub activity for at least two of the Global Alliances based on the cumulative impact from at least these three factors: I-35 corridor growth; consolidation, 'settling-in' and stabilizing relations among global passenger and cargo traffic suppliers; and aircraft capacity/range/efficiency increases.

The mid-continent location allows for easier transfers with longest-range international flights applying to a third of the North American population versus coastal hubs; mid-continent is very strategic as a pit-stop for the half-way-around the world flights; ace in the hole: airport expansion will not limited by the natural or built world for a very long time.

Entities tasked with creating a favorable business climate in North Texas cannot allow the global reach of a dual alliance hub slip away. To compete with San Francisco, Sydney, Toronto, Zurich, Brussels, Madrid, Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Moscow, Seoul and raise the game to Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Milan, Singapore, the big airport cannot supply the region access to the rest of the world with only one global alliances hub.

Realizing oneworld currently provides pervasive North America connectivity is one thing, relying on that partnership to connect to the rest of the world is another. With Star operating out of Houston, it's only logical for Sky Team to join oneworld at DFW. AA freaks can (and should) stand down knowing the regrowth of a domestic Delta hub would be mostly dedicated to SkyTeam partner access.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 29 Apr 2017 11:34

tamtagon wrote:Entities tasked with creating a favorable business climate in North Texas cannot allow the global reach of a dual alliance hub slip away. To compete with San Francisco, Sydney, Toronto, Zurich and raise the game to Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Milan, Singapore, the big airport cannot supply the region access to the rest of the world with only one global alliances hub.


Most of these airports are one global alliance hubs:

SFO: Star Alliance (United)
Sydney: oneWorld (Qantas)
Toronto: Star Alliance (Air Canada)
Zurich: Star Alliance (Swiss)
Frankfurt: Star Alliance (Lufthansa)
Milan: Sky Team (Alitalia)
Singapore: Star Alliance (Singapore)

London, Tokyo, Chicago, Los Angeles, and JFK (EWR alliance hubbed) are probably the best examples of multi alliance hubs. But the list above shows that single alliance hubs can and are successful around the world.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 29 Apr 2017 14:16

tamtagon wrote:I'm still not buying the future of this airport as a single alliance hub.

Air carriers as well as the host population center will effectively require DFW to accommodate major connecting hub activity for at least two of the Global Alliances based on the cumulative impact from at least these three factors: I-35 corridor growth; consolidation, 'settling-in' and stabilizing relations among global passenger and cargo traffic suppliers; and aircraft capacity/range/efficiency increases.

The mid-continent location allows for easier transfers with longest-range international flights applying to a third of the North American population versus coastal hubs; mid-continent is very strategic as a pit-stop for the half-way-around the world flights; ace in the hole: airport expansion will not limited by the natural or built world for a very long time.

Entities tasked with creating a favorable business climate in North Texas cannot allow the global reach of a dual alliance hub slip away. To compete with San Francisco, Sydney, Toronto, Zurich, Brussels, Madrid, Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Moscow, Seoul and raise the game to Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Milan, Singapore, the big airport cannot supply the region access to the rest of the world with only one global alliances hub.

Realizing oneworld currently provides pervasive North America connectivity is one thing, relying on that partnership to connect to the rest of the world is another. With Star operating out of Houston, it's only logical for Sky Team to join oneworld at DFW. AA freaks can (and should) stand down knowing the regrowth of a domestic Delta hub would be mostly dedicated to SkyTeam partner access.


HAPPY GROUNDHOG DAY!

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DFW getting seasonal flights to Rome and Amsterdam

Postby xen0blue » 03 May 2017 21:45

Looks like Dallas is getting it's seasonal flight back to Amsterdam back plus a new seasonal flight to Rome between may and september starting this month courtesy of American! It's a nice victory after we lost the Air Berlin flight to Dusseldorf

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... o.amp.html

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby captmidnight » 03 May 2017 22:15

it would've been better if its another airline and not AA. More variety of tails at DFW

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Austin55 » 22 May 2017 17:19

I haven't seen much press on it, but it seems Air India wants to launch a Delhi-Dallas route sometime this year.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 589795.cms

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby DPatel304 » 23 May 2017 09:15

That would be cool. I'm heading to India in February, but most likely I will have already had my ticket booked by then. Plus I'm heading to Mumbai and not Delhi, but being able to go direct to Delhi would be pretty cool.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 23 May 2017 23:26

I'm surprised it's taken so long. When I've flown Lufthansa or one of the ME3 it seems like half the plane is on their way to India or Pakistan.

Of course the downside to Air India serving DFW is that Lufthansa will probably leave.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby jovan_gonzales » 10 Jun 2017 13:21

It's not as fancy as Amsterdam or Rome, but AA started daily flights to Billings on the 2nd. I happened to see the article while I was in MT a week ago.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/direct-american-airlines-flights-from-billings-to-dallas-take-off/article_06231c1e-44ed-5a22-a4fe-982aebd67087.html

Best part of the article:
Low-cost and innovative ideas include doing what McCandless described as a recurring “coffee shop takeover” in Dallas to let travelers know about Billings-area attractions. “We hope to get them to serve huckleberry latte,” she said with a smile.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby xen0blue » 14 Jun 2017 13:39

Hannibal Lecter wrote:I'm surprised it's taken so long. When I've flown Lufthansa or one of the ME3 it seems like half the plane is on their way to India or Pakistan.

Of course the downside to Air India serving DFW is that Lufthansa will probably leave.


Why would Lufthansa leave if Air India comes? Why are the two mutually exclusive?

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 14 Jun 2017 13:43

xen0blue wrote:Why would Lufthansa leave if Air India comes? Why are the two mutually exclusive?


I have no figures to back it up but I've heard on multiple sites that Lufthansa's flight is heavy on passengers connecting in FRA to India

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tnexster » 27 Jun 2017 15:13

Forecast: DFW Airport to be nation’s third busiest over July 4 holiday, Love fastest growing

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... j=78456791

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tnexster » 17 Jul 2017 16:54

With backing from major airlines and Trump, will air traffic control reform finally take off?

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... nally-take

The plan is widely supported by commercial airlines, including American Airlines and Southwest, who argue changing management is key to speeding up the modernization of the system’s aging infrastructure, which in turn can improve efficiency and reduce traffic congestion as more and more people take to the skies each year.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Dbrock » 22 Jul 2017 21:53

How does DFW rank worldwide among the world's busiest airports?

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 23 Jul 2017 09:31

Dbrock wrote:How does DFW rank worldwide among the world's busiest airports?


For passenger traffic numbers, about 11th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... er_traffic

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby jovan_gonzales » 30 Jul 2017 15:36

Did anyone notice that DFW has started building out the ramp for future Terminal F (from Google Maps)? I doubt that it means anything for actual Terminal F, but it's at least that much less to do for it.

Term F.PNG


I also found this after a quick Google. It's a PDF of the scope of the project. This may be what the other half of the FAA funds were allocated to.

https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/webcontent/documents/webasset/p2_545768.pdf
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 31 Jul 2017 15:44

The latest news I'm hearing is that American Airlines does not like the airport terminal layout and is opposed to the airport's plan for Terminal F. Supposed to be some news in the next few months.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Aug 2017 10:38

Quote from an article this year about Terminal F and Terminal C...

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article133556129.html

Now that Terminal A completely reopened in January, American said it needs more time to evaluate its future needs at DFW, including the possibility of building a sixth terminal, Terminal F.

“Frankly, we’re kind of a new airline since the TRIP project started,” said Tim Skipworth, American’s Vice President of Airport Affairs. “We have to think about what’s going to happen on the F site and what we and the airport agree should be built on the F site and then roll that all together.”

Options include keeping Terminal C open while they build Terminal F and then tearing down C if the airport does not need the extra gate space. Or the airport could decide to renovate Terminal C after F is open so American and other airlines would not need to give up gates during construction like they did while Terminals A, B, and E underwent renovations.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby longhorn » 16 Aug 2017 09:25

Over on an airline enthusiast website, they are stating AA wants to move away from the horse shoe concept and move to something like IAH or PHX terminal layout. Expect an announcement soon.

A terminal layout like IAH or PHX would work being built in the median of International Parkway. Speeds would definately be lowered and International Parkway would have to cease being a conduit to get from Grapevine to Arlington.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby muncien » 16 Aug 2017 16:39

Very curious what all is intended here...
I personally love Sky Harbor airport, but replicating that sort of arrangement on the scale of DFW and in the existing footprint will be extremely difficult. Connecting the expanse between each terminal can be achieved, but only through great expense and minimal functional gain (if any). On the other hand... If they intend to reuse the central corridor for non airport functions (we have seen some renderings for office buildings here), than their may be something to it... But that seems quite ambitious.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 16 Aug 2017 17:01

I think AA is looking for some deal with DFW for Terminal F and/or Terminal C.

The airport just spent over a billion dollars renovating A, B, and E. The logistics required to bulldoze all 5 terminals to build one GIANT terminal that has the same amount or more gates (DFW has 165 currently, PHX has 116) would be insane and in my opinion would seriously hurt AA since it's their largest hub.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 16 Aug 2017 17:18

There's enough land to have both, right?

Americans airport infrastructure has fallen a generation behind the rest of the world, so it could be exceptionally AAdvantageous to repurpose one or parts of more of the terminals into shopping mall, office, meeting, luxury resort spa.... and a new terminal closer to the south entrance.

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Re: DFW Airport

Postby longhorn » 16 Aug 2017 20:17

flyswatter wrote:I think AA is looking for some deal with DFW for Terminal F and/or Terminal C.

The airport just spent over a billion dollars renovating A, B, and E. The logistics required to bulldoze all 5 terminals to build one GIANT terminal that has the same amount or more gates (DFW has 165 currently, PHX has 116) would be insane and in my opinion would seriously hurt AA since it's their largest hub.


Per the post on Anet, think central terminal like PHX or IAH with long linear concourses on either side. Think Delta's DTW McNamara terminal. That almost one mile concourse has like 64 gates. So two of those gets you 128 gates right there. Again, the median of International Parkway is more than wide enough to fit a terminal like PHX or IAH in it, and AA gets out of having to have man power in four different terminals.

Build it on Terminal F spot and south. Move the crossing taxis over the Parkway further south, way south down where the end of runway taxiway is. DFW is in South flow 90% of the year and it would make more efficient for aircraft ops.

Alot of this is speculation, we will see what AA and DFW comes up with.

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flyswatter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 17 Aug 2017 08:23

longhorn wrote:Per the post on Anet, think central terminal like PHX or IAH with long linear concourses on either side. Think Delta's DTW McNamara terminal. That almost one mile concourse has like 64 gates. So two of those gets you 128 gates right there. Again, the median of International Parkway is more than wide enough to fit a terminal like PHX or IAH in it, and AA gets out of having to have man power in four different terminals.

Build it on Terminal F spot and south. Move the crossing taxis over the Parkway further south, way south down where the end of runway taxiway is. DFW is in South flow 90% of the year and it would make more efficient for aircraft ops.

Alot of this is speculation, we will see what AA and DFW comes up with.


I'm thinking more that they would have to get creative to keep DFW at 165 gates with 900+ daily flights throughout construction while keeping the primary crossover taxis AND building new crossover taxis/infrastructure. The time to build singular terminals was when they started discussing TRIP. I think Skylink is a better system than one giant terminal with walkways anyways. I've never flown through Delta's DTW terminal, but the long and narrow North Terminal there was still a pain. You needed a moving walkway just to use the bathroom. Connecting in PHX (no train) and IAH (train on only one side of airport) can be quite a pain too if the connection is tight.

It's also Anet so take it all with a grain of salt. They take things way out of context and state a lot of opinions as facts. There is currently a huge thread about how it's Long Beach's fault for JetBlue purposely breaking the curfew at LGB every night. I won't even start on their irrational hatred for Southwest...

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muncien
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby muncien » 17 Aug 2017 10:37

Earlier renderings of the commercial development of the central corridor through DFW showed some sort of people mover or PRT outside of security. I think this would be hugely beneficial to the airport itself as the throngs of busses and shuttles whipping around in dizzying circles cannot be the most efficient means of moving people about the area.
I was amazed to see that the redevelopment already underway didn't eliminate more of the mess of loopy ramps everywhere. Perhaps any future infrastructure changes will do more to reduce that, provide a more effective means of connection outside of the secured areas, and also expand out to the other parking areas and rental car hub. We'll see...

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tamtagon
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby tamtagon » 17 Aug 2017 11:44

City within an Airport, terminal adjacent development that appeals as a destination to locals, SouthCentral US regional transportation hub built enticing domestic travelers to join international travelers to spend the night before continuing on... the spread-out horseshoe design will become host to the next evolution of American airports.

If we're lucky, DFW will get out ahead of all/most other US superhubs to update our air service infrastructure.

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 17 Aug 2017 13:52

longhorn wrote:
flyswatter wrote:I think AA is looking for some deal with DFW for Terminal F and/or Terminal C.

The airport just spent over a billion dollars renovating A, B, and E. The logistics required to bulldoze all 5 terminals to build one GIANT terminal that has the same amount or more gates (DFW has 165 currently, PHX has 116) would be insane and in my opinion would seriously hurt AA since it's their largest hub.


Per the post on Anet, think central terminal like PHX or IAH with long linear concourses on either side. Think Delta's DTW McNamara terminal. That almost one mile concourse has like 64 gates. So two of those gets you 128 gates right there. Again, the median of International Parkway is more than wide enough to fit a terminal like PHX or IAH in it, and AA gets out of having to have man power in four different terminals.

Build it on Terminal F spot and south. Move the crossing taxis over the Parkway further south, way south down where the end of runway taxiway is. DFW is in South flow 90% of the year and it would make more efficient for aircraft ops.

Alot of this is speculation, we will see what AA and DFW comes up with.


Interesting speculation all around, but it HAS to be the remotest of possibilities that they don't go with the standard horseshoe terminal, virtually a carbon copy of D. Not only is the airport grand design built around a Terminal F (and ultimately 10 total horseshoes - 2 north and 2 south of existing) but the people mover is already 100% built out in anticipation of a horseshoe Terminal F.

You'd have to be willing to piss away tens of billions of dollars, maybe they find tons of benefactors that wipe their behinds with Ben Franklins, otherwise there can't be any chance in you-know-where that the Airport is going to bulldoze basically billions in infrastructure (didn't even mention International Parkway) and spend billions more to redesign the original grand design for something "more modern." New Taxiway, new People Mover, the entire airport is built around the original grand design.

Like it or not, DFW is what it is. 11 figures worth of sunk costs and all. I think it was genius but apparently some people like the shiny new objects that have been built since. I guess if you have a few ten billion lying around....

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longhorn
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby longhorn » 17 Aug 2017 15:16

We'll see, all I know is that DFW's largest customer and the one paying the bills through its enplanements is making noise about a change in direction. It must cost more to have to man four different check in counters in four terminals.

Yes, alot of money has been sunk into 2 TRIP renovations and the tram. I guess we will have to wait till the announcement soon.

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 18 Aug 2017 13:30

I think its a lot of bluster from AA trying to get DFW to foot more of the bill for D. D is going to cost 3 billion alone, and thats with the people mover already finished, sitting there waiting for a terminal to service.

Teardown/rebuild of terminals, tram, roads, taxiways will probably cost more than 1/2 of the entire net valuation of American Airlines Group. 20 Billion on the low end. Aint nobody got that kind of money.

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 20 Aug 2017 07:07

Alex Rodriguez wrote:I think its a lot of bluster from AA trying to get DFW to foot more of the bill for D. D is going to cost 3 billion alone, and thats with the people mover already finished, sitting there waiting for a terminal to service.

Teardown/rebuild of terminals, tram, roads, taxiways will probably cost more than 1/2 of the entire net valuation of American Airlines Group. 20 Billion on the low end. Aint nobody got that kind of money.


I presume you meant to say F, not D, in your first paragraph. Where did you get the idea the new terminal will cost $3 Billion?

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longhorn
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby longhorn » 21 Aug 2017 08:11

Yeah, 3 Billion is a bit high. Delta is spending 4 billion on the NYC LaGuardia terminal. Imagine what terminal complex 4 billion gets AA at DFW.

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 23 Aug 2017 11:31

tamtagon wrote:There's enough land to have both, right?

Americans airport infrastructure has fallen a generation behind the rest of the world, so it could be exceptionally AAdvantageous to repurpose one or parts of more of the terminals into shopping mall, office, meeting, luxury resort spa.... and a new terminal closer to the south entrance.


The "America's airports are crumbling" trope is so tiresome- the politicians and media types that only fly through LGA and DCA decided that every airport in America must be in shambles, because NYC and DC are the greatest, so everything out in flyover country must be worse.

Those "superior" airports overseas are just giant duty-free shopping malls that happen to have runways and gates, and cater to a substantially higher proportion of long haul/international flights. The average American traveler wants to be able to get to their gate quickly and be able to grab a McMuffin before their flight.


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