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Dallas Love Field People Mover

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art_suckz
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Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby art_suckz » 19 Oct 2016 10:27

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/love ... light-rail

Dallas Love Field officials again eyeing 'people mover' linking airport to light rail
Robert Wilonsky, City Columnist
Oct. 18, 2016

Out of nowhere Monday afternoon, a brief update about the massive parking garage currently under construction at Dallas Love Field turned into breaking news about a possible "people mover" connecting the airport with at least one Dallas Area Rapid Transit light-rail station.


...

After the meeting, he was again quick to caution that "this is very early. It may not even happen."
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Oct 2016 19:09

I'm not as familiar with this airport or the green line, but I'm wondering why they even mention the Bachman station when it looks like the Burbank station is essentially right outside the airport. Both stations are close, I suppose, but, just look at the map, the Burbank station seems a lot closer.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby art_suckz » 20 Oct 2016 13:48

There is a cross-wind runway that was decommissioned. Once that is closed it will only be used for taxiing aircraft.

Sounds like they want a new entry into the airport on the north side as well as a streetcar style people mover going all the way up to northwest highway. I guess that makes the other station more suitable.
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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby tamtagon » 20 Oct 2016 22:08

having a entrance on the northside would be great!

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willyk
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby willyk » 22 Oct 2016 22:30

I wonder how they would route the cars from the north side to the front of the terminal? How would they avoid runways and taxiways?

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 24 Oct 2016 16:01

Best I can figure, from Burbank, the trolley would go North on Denton, then East on Shorecrest to Weiss. Then south on Weiss on the current north end of the airfield. A road and trolley line would have to be built that follows the East side of 13R/31L, similar to the way Herb Kelleher Way does now. Likely they would convert the outside taxiway on 13R/31L by the Firestation into part of the new route for the road/trolley. You would have to then tunnel under 18/36 until you get to the West side of the Baggage claim building. You could build a pickup/dropoff area there, and then the road would join the existing Herb Kelleher Way by Garage A.

It's definitely doable. Complicated but doable

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 24 Oct 2016 16:05

You'd also have to figure out what to do with the de-icing area, that would likely have to be moved a little East and North.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby art_suckz » 27 Oct 2016 14:05

Hmm, should this be moved and combined with Airports? Or left with Rail?
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Tnexster » 27 Oct 2016 16:16

I titled the other one Dallas Love Field, I am sure other topics will surface that will be more relevant to the airport.

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Matt777
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Matt777 » 19 Sep 2018 16:05

Idea dump..... if they are exploring digging underground for a people mover to connect the terminal to the DART Orange Line..... why not just create it as a single track "spur" off of the Orange Line where a train spurs off from somewhere to the orange line underground to the terminal, drops/collects passengers, and backs out and back onto the existing line. Schedules would have to be coordinated to where there weren't 2 trains at the station at the same time but that shouldn't be too hard. Then we would have a line connecting both major airports easily and quickly to Downtown.

If Southwest ever operated at DFW.... it could also be a decent way to connect their DFW and Love operations.

Call it the Airport Line or Airport Express.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 26 Sep 2018 15:01

Matt777 wrote:Idea dump..... if they are exploring digging underground for a people mover to connect the terminal to the DART Orange Line..... why not just create it as a single track "spur" off of the Orange Line where a train spurs off from somewhere to the orange line underground to the terminal, drops/collects passengers, and backs out and back onto the existing line. Schedules would have to be coordinated to where there weren't 2 trains at the station at the same time but that shouldn't be too hard. Then we would have a line connecting both major airports easily and quickly to Downtown.

If Southwest ever operated at DFW.... it could also be a decent way to connect their DFW and Love operations.

Call it the Airport Line or Airport Express.


The main advantage of using a people mover is that it requires no driver, using automation. DART’s light rail trains require a driver. If you want a driver, for a half mile to one mile long track, it would be far cheaper and just as effective to use a Dallas streetcar vs a DART light rail train. You don’t need a light rail train with a maximum speed over 60 mph when a 40 mph streetcar is fast enough. And that is why almost all the proposals prefer using a people mover.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Matt777 » 27 Sep 2018 09:07

electricron wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Idea dump..... if they are exploring digging underground for a people mover to connect the terminal to the DART Orange Line..... why not just create it as a single track "spur" off of the Orange Line where a train spurs off from somewhere to the orange line underground to the terminal, drops/collects passengers, and backs out and back onto the existing line. Schedules would have to be coordinated to where there weren't 2 trains at the station at the same time but that shouldn't be too hard. Then we would have a line connecting both major airports easily and quickly to Downtown.

If Southwest ever operated at DFW.... it could also be a decent way to connect their DFW and Love operations.

Call it the Airport Line or Airport Express.


The main advantage of using a people mover is that it requires no driver, using automation. DART’s light rail trains require a driver. If you want a driver, for a half mile to one mile long track, it would be far cheaper and just as effective to use a Dallas streetcar vs a DART light rail train. You don’t need a light rail train with a maximum speed over 60 mph when a 40 mph streetcar is fast enough. And that is why almost all the proposals prefer using a people mover.


Maybe I didn't make it clear, this wouldn't be a separate line. It would just be an extension, an addition, to the orange line and a new station on the orange line. That way Love Field would be directly connected to the DART rail system instead of making people take a bus, streetcar, or long people mover first to reach the station and then wait for another train to come after that. It's all about making it easy and convenient, which increases adoption rates.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 27 Sep 2018 23:53

Matt777 wrote: Maybe I didn't make it clear, this wouldn't be a separate line. It would just be an extension, an addition, to the orange line and a new station on the orange line. That way Love Field would be directly connected to the DART rail system instead of making people take a bus, streetcar, or long people mover first to reach the station and then wait for another train to come after that. It's all about making it easy and convenient, which increases adoption rates.


I think in that case it would make more sense to just reroute both the orange and green lines through Love Field to a subway station underneath the terminal as was originally envisioned, before returning to the surface and connecting to the current Burbank and Inwood stations at the northern and southern ends respectively.

I wholeheartedly agree with your fundamental point of increasing ridership by making a direct rail connection to the airport. Convenience is paramount when it comes to many people even considering taking public transit in the first place. We're about to witness a wildly successful model of this for the next three weeks at the State Fair of Texas where people will be more willing to opt out of driving since transit easily takes them to their destination, in this case Fair Park. Obviously that sort of front door entrance convenience can't be replicated everywhere for every possible place people might want to get to, but it should go without saying that Love Field will continue to be a major destination for the Metroplex at large for many years to come and therefore should really be directly accessible by rail without being forced onto a shuttle bus which, right or wrong, many snub as an option.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 28 Sep 2018 09:25

jeffbrown2002 wrote:I think in that case it would make more sense to just reroute both the orange and green lines through Love Field to a subway station underneath the terminal as was originally envisioned, before returning to the surface and connecting to the current Burbank and Inwood stations at the northern and southern ends respectively.

I wholeheartedly agree with your fundamental point of increasing ridership by making a direct rail connection to the airport. Convenience is paramount when it comes to many people even considering taking public transit in the first place. We're about to witness a wildly successful model of this for the next three weeks at the State Fair of Texas where people will be more willing to opt out of driving since transit easily takes them to their destination, in this case Fair Park. Obviously that sort of front door entrance convenience can't be replicated everywhere for every possible place people might want to get to, but it should go without saying that Love Field will continue to be a major destination for the Metroplex at large for many years to come and therefore should really be directly accessible by rail without being forced onto a shuttle bus which, right or wrong, many snub as an option.

DART studied tunneling under Love Field to get to its terminal and place a station there., but during the EIS process it was nixed for some logical reasons by the FTA. When a project is partially funded by the Federal government, you are allowing it to dictate how a project proceeds.

DART is studying the D2 project to day with an EIS hoping for Federal funding with it as well. Let's hope that EIS fairs better than the Green Line when it comes to tunneling. Let's hope the Federal government doesn't find any reasons to nix any tunneling.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Matt777 » 28 Sep 2018 09:28

jeffbrown2002 wrote:
Matt777 wrote: Maybe I didn't make it clear, this wouldn't be a separate line. It would just be an extension, an addition, to the orange line and a new station on the orange line. That way Love Field would be directly connected to the DART rail system instead of making people take a bus, streetcar, or long people mover first to reach the station and then wait for another train to come after that. It's all about making it easy and convenient, which increases adoption rates.


I think in that case it would make more sense to just reroute both the orange and green lines through Love Field to a subway station underneath the terminal as was originally envisioned, before returning to the surface and connecting to the current Burbank and Inwood stations at the northern and southern ends respectively.



I agree, that would be ideal, but I think it would be over double the length of the "spur" idea and prohibitively expensive. With the spur, it's about the same amount of digging as a people mover but of course would likely cost more to lay rail than lay a moving sidewalk. However, the cost difference may be small enough to at least consider it.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 28 Sep 2018 20:18

Matt777 wrote:I agree, that would be ideal, but I think it would be over double the length of the "spur" idea and prohibitively expensive. With the spur, it's about the same amount of digging as a people mover but of course would likely cost more to lay rail than lay a moving sidewalk. However, the cost difference may be small enough to at least consider it.

I disagree, a spur off the Orange Line to Love Field’s Terminal would not be better for most DART riders. It would only provide a one seat ride for those coming from Irving. All those using the Green Line directly from Dallas, Farmers Branch, and Carrolton, by far the majority, will still have to transfer at Burbank. Taking the spur will either delay Orange Line riders heading towards downtown Dallas, or perhaps if the Orange Line was to terminate at Love Field, cause all of them to transfer to Green Line trains.

The best would be routing both the Green and Orange Lines under Love Field, which the FTA nixed. An automated people mover or moving sidewalk running more frequently that once every 10 minutes would be better for most on both the Green and Orange Lines, except those coming from Irving.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 01 Oct 2018 17:18

electricron wrote:DART studied tunneling under Love Field to get to its terminal and place a station there., but during the EIS process it was nixed for some logical reasons by the FTA. When a project is partially funded by the Federal government, you are allowing it to dictate how a project proceeds.

DART is studying the D2 project to day with an EIS hoping for Federal funding with it as well. Let's hope that EIS fairs better than the Green Line when it comes to tunneling. Let's hope the Federal government doesn't find any reasons to nix any tunneling.


Sadly the only reason there isn't a subway station at Love Field right now is exactly because of the way the FTA under the Bush administration insisted (stupidly) on including the costs for it in a federal funding proposal for the entire green line despite Dallas, DART, and NCTCOG offering to fund that particular portion of the line. Far from any rational or logical reason IMO.

You're right that we're under the whims of the feds when they allocate money but my understanding was that this grant was awarded to improve transit mobility and that, again, this addition to the airport was not to be funded by any federal but rather local dollars. Thus the rejection seemed to deliberately disregard a sincere effort by Dallas and other agencies to improve their transit network both for residents and those visiting the city alike.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2014/10/12/airport-dart-station-is-one-direct-connection-dallas-love-field-doesnt-have

"DART was seeking federal approval of and funding for the project at the time. Agency officials were worried that they couldn’t afford to build the Love Field station and expand farther into the suburbs. The extra cost for the tunnel was $160 million.

Rather than tack that on to what DART was seeking from the federal government, the agency, the city and NCTCOG pooled money for that portion of the project.
...
The Federal Transit Administration still nixed the idea. They told area leaders that even if local money covered the cost of the tunnel, the expense had to be factored into a formula that looks at cost-effectiveness of federally funded projects. The maximum cost per passenger federal authorities would cover was $25. With the tunnel, the Green Line would cost $25.61 per passenger. Without it, that amount fell to $21.59."


As you can probably tell I'm still not over this :P It just seems so shortsighted and even cruel to deny the city such a key connection, especially when they raised the funds and didn't ask for more federal money. One can only wonder if the same result would've occurred under another administration with even just a slightly more favorable view toward transit.

In any case it's a big shame and hopefully this major mistake of the past is not repeated in some other fashion moving forward. ...and who knows, maybe in a few decades they'll even decide to revisit this tunnel and finally build it once and for all, same with Knox/Henderson :lol:

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 01 Oct 2018 21:55

jeffbrown2002 wrote:As you can probably tell I'm still not over this :P It just seems so shortsighted and even cruel to deny the city such a key connection, especially when they raised the funds and didn't ask for more federal money. One can only wonder if the same result would've occurred under another administration with even just a slightly more favorable view toward transit.

In any case it's a big shame and hopefully this major mistake of the past is not repeated in some other fashion moving forward. ...and who knows, maybe in a few decades they'll even decide to revisit this tunnel and finally build it once and for all, same with Knox/Henderson :lol:


16 years is a long time to hold a grudge. The Green Line FEIS was approved late 2003, not long after the Federal government blew it’s budget following 9-11-2001. Whereas locally the Green Line was rated at a higher priority, what was happening in the Middle East had a higher priority nationally. Maybe it was just poor timing, but since money does not grow on trees, world events can cause a shift in spending priorities at every level of government. That’s why the Federal and local government budget are made anew every year.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... nwfeis.htm

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 02 Oct 2018 01:10

electricron wrote:16 years is long time to hold a grudge. The Green Line FEIS was approved late 2003, not long after the Federal government blew it’s budget following 9-11-2001. Whereas locally the Green Line was rated at a higher priority, what was happening in the Middle East had a higher priority nationally. Maybe it was just poor timing, but since money does not grow on trees, world events can cause a shift in spending priorities at every level of government. That’s why the Federal and local government budget are made anew every year.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... nwfeis.htm


10 years is also a long time where we could have had a better rail system serving Love Field directly. Again, the tunnel to the airport would not have increased the total amount of federal dollars that were already awarded to the Green Line project. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

The local government agencies came up with the money knowing a request with the tunnel would not likely get approved. DART came up with the money, the federal government was free to continue pursuing their military incursions in the Middle East without spending an additional dime on our subway. For the FTA to threaten to withhold funds for the entire project in the name of some half-baked formula measuring "cost-effectiveness" if the already funded tunnel to the airport was pursued was nonsensical. There was no financial downside to allowing a locally financed addition aimed at significantly improving the city's transit to proceed, none.

Elections have consequences as clearly evidenced by this situation but that's a whole other conversation.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 03 Oct 2018 09:07

jeffbrown2002 wrote:10 years is also a long time where we could have had a better rail system serving Love Field directly. Again, the tunnel to the airport would not have increased the total amount of federal dollars that were already awarded to the Green Line project. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

The local government agencies came up with the money knowing a request with the tunnel would not likely get approved. DART came up with the money, the federal government was free to continue pursuing their military incursions in the Middle East without spending an additional dime on our subway. For the FTA to threaten to withhold funds for the entire project in the name of some half-baked formula measuring "cost-effectiveness" if the already funded tunnel to the airport was pursued was nonsensical. There was no financial downside to allowing a locally financed addition aimed at significantly improving the city's transit to proceed, none.

Elections have consequences as clearly evidenced by this situation but that's a whole other conversation.


DART knew the FTA wouldn't approve the Green Line with a tunnel under Love Field, yet proposed a one of a kind out of the box solution which the FTA refused. It's disingenuous to suggest DART doesn't design it's light rail lines to meet all FTA half-baked formulas including one measuring "cost-effectiveness" to maximize the odds of getting FTA funding.

DART then set aside $50 million to go with whatever the city was going to provide for the unbuilt tunnel to build a people mover instead. Dallas and Dart has since went ahead and spent all that set aside money on other things.

So how important was it to connect the Green Line with Love Field after all?

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 03 Oct 2018 15:40

electricron wrote:DART knew the FTA wouldn't approve the Green Line with a tunnel under Love Field, yet proposed a one of a kind out of the box solution which the FTA refused. It's disingenuous to suggest DART doesn't design it's light rail lines to meet all FTA half-baked formulas including one measuring "cost-effectiveness" to maximize the odds of getting FTA funding.

DART then set aside $50 million to go with whatever the city was going to provide for the unbuilt tunnel to build a people mover instead. Dallas and Dart has since went ahead and spent all that set aside money on other things.

So how important was it to connect the Green Line with Love Field after all?


I never suggested that DART doesn't design their lines to meet whatever whims the FTA happens to currently be under, if that were the case they wouldn't have been awarded the money for the Green Line in the first place. DART responded to a demand by the Dallas City Council to tunnel underneath the airport after the fact and their ultimate solution was deemed unacceptable.

As to the other point, for whatever reason the people mover concept was abandoned (with a little more finality as evidenced by the recent scrubbing of the text that once proclaimed "Future connection to Love Field" at Burbank Station, though if you squint you can still see where the letters were) and those funds went to the Dallas Streetcar. I imagine the calculation was made that, while viewed more favorably than a bus, a people mover is still an additional transfer passengers have to make, and better to fund a more accessible and visible transit project elsewhere in the city. Building a new streetcar for Oak Cliff was ostensibly seen as more beneficial then what was probably argued as essentially a fancy bus on a dedicated guideway moving solely to and from the airport.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby quixomniac » 05 Oct 2018 01:43

I know people mover or extension is being considered, but how difficult would it be to try something simpler like a cable car? Its continuous like the people mover, but less expensive than digging a tunnel I imagine.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby itsjrd1964 » 05 Oct 2018 04:09

quixomniac wrote:I know people mover or extension is being considered, but how difficult would it be to try something simpler like a cable car? Its continuous like the people mover, but less expensive than digging a tunnel I imagine.


Where would they put it? The only way in/out of the public area of the airport is on Herb Kelleher Way north of Mockingbird. There's hardly any room to have what's along there now. If it came from Burbank Station there might be a little room along the airport fence perimeter (if the airport/city allowed that), but when you get around to Herb Kelleher, that's the end of any room you would have. Coming up from the south (like from Inwood Station), Inwood and Mockingbird are both busy streets. Somebody that's distracted or in a hurry will hit one of them. And there's still no room on Herb Kelleher. Nice thought, but Love Field really wasn't planned with cable cars, light rail, or off-airport people movers as part of the deal. I'm not sure what the solution would be besides something that ran underground at least part of the way. Otherwise, it's look-for-the-next-#524 time at Inwood Station.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby quixomniac » 05 Oct 2018 21:25

Hmm fair point. I figured if they aimed for the love field station and built tall enough poles, they could probably do it with a few well placed ones such that they avoid alot of those issues by sheer elevation. But given the speed, it would be easier to take a shuttle at that point. Going to burbank would be easier but unrealistic going over runways I suppose.

In all honesty anything other than a direct connection via rail line would be making things more complicated than they should be.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby willyk » 11 Oct 2018 02:24

They are working on a new north entrance to Love Field. Maybe it will include an alignment for a people mover to Burbank or Bachman station.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Cbdallas » 26 Oct 2018 09:49

Why not just an underground tunnel from Burbank Station to the terminal with the same moving sidewalks they use in the parking garages. Simple not near as much money and direct terminal access.

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby muncien » 26 Oct 2018 13:41

Cbdallas wrote:Why not just an underground tunnel from Burbank Station to the terminal with the same moving sidewalks they use in the parking garages. Simple not near as much money and direct terminal access.


That's exactly what I was thinking previously... Plus, you could move the ride-share pickup/dropoff to the same place to lighten the load on the main airport access road.
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby TreeFrog » 26 Oct 2018 14:15

muncien wrote:... Plus, you could move the ride-share pickup/dropoff to the same place to lighten the load on the main airport access road.


One of the benefits of taking a ride-share to the airport is being dropped off right at the door. Why would anyone want to be dropped off a few thousand feet away when you could literally park closer?

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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby muncien » 26 Oct 2018 14:26

TreeFrog wrote:
muncien wrote:... Plus, you could move the ride-share pickup/dropoff to the same place to lighten the load on the main airport access road.


One of the benefits of taking a ride-share to the airport is being dropped off right at the door. Why would anyone want to be dropped off a few thousand feet away when you could literally park closer?


We're talking about a climate controlled moving sidewalk (like at many prominant airports), not an alligator pit. lol
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