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Dallas Area Rapid Transit

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Jun 2017 10:51

Does anyone remember the fight on the type of train was neighborhood motivated? DART wanted to use commuter trains like we have discussed above but the neighborhoods were very angry about it because they wanted absolute silence and the same LRT trains in the rest of DART system. They were convinced that commuter rail was a step backward. They forced DART to say both technologies would remain an option going forward.

DPatel304
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby DPatel304 » 06 Jul 2017 12:26

Out of curiosity, how did State Farm end up becoming a huge TOD when relocating here. When that relocation was announced, I was kinda hoping more DART stations would turn into similar TODs, but there really aren't any signs of that happening anytime soon.

Did they get some incentive to incorporate DART into their development? Basically I'm wondering what it would take to reproduce this. I suppose this one particular station also had great access to 75 and Bush, so perhaps that's what drove the relocation and the DART station was just a nice bonus.

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Brettoj
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Brettoj » 06 Jul 2017 13:21

DPatel304 wrote:Out of curiosity, how did State Farm end up becoming a huge TOD when relocating here. When that relocation was announced, I was kinda hoping more DART stations would turn into similar TODs, but there really aren't any signs of that happening anytime soon.

Did they get some incentive to incorporate DART into their development? Basically I'm wondering what it would take to reproduce this. I suppose this one particular station also had great access to 75 and Bush, so perhaps that's what drove the relocation and the DART station was just a nice bonus.


Seems more to be a company philosophy. Their new buildings in Georgia also are right next to a rail line.

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Jay9398
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Jay9398 » 06 Jul 2017 15:41

Brettoj wrote:Seems more to be a company philosophy. Their new buildings in Georgia also are right next to a rail line.


They like a good neighbor.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 09 Jul 2017 06:42

DPatel304 wrote:Out of curiosity, how did State Farm end up becoming a huge TOD when relocating here. When that relocation was announced, I was kinda hoping more DART stations would turn into similar TODs, but there really aren't any signs of that happening anytime soon.

Did they get some incentive to incorporate DART into their development? Basically I'm wondering what it would take to reproduce this. I suppose this one particular station also had great access to 75 and Bush, so perhaps that's what drove the relocation and the DART station was just a nice bonus.


Private enterprise working at its finest is how. DART bought an existing corridor that Union Pacific Railroad didn't want anymore. A developer ought a huge lot of land in Richardson with the existing railroad running through the middle of it. DART builds a light rail station on land given cheaply to DART on the developer's property. The developer then sells or developes the land after, and only after, they find someone willing to build or lease a large building or complex. Presto, like magic, a TOD is born.

Along the way, government institutions assisted. DART built the Red Line and light rail station at the location. Richardson amended its zoning for the property. Taxes were also amended to encourage the TOD.
But make no mistake, it was private enterprise that funded and built the buildings and will either make a profit or not leasing space to tenants.

This is what can happen when government assists private enterprise. To often, governments kill projects in an attempt to make a good project better - for whatever political motives.

The developer was going to build a project on the land eventually, with or without DART being present. But what was built was affected by DART. A great private-public partnership!, with each partner doing what it does best and leaving the other partner alone and getting out of its way to do its job.

To often we read the sad stories of government getting in the way and killing a privately funded project. For examples; the Texas Central HSR or the Keystone Pipeline projects. Progress will never be made if we stubbornly maintain the status quo. It's one thing to limit government's participation, its another for government to be obstructionists, doing whatever it can to stop a project.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby joshua.dodd » 09 Jul 2017 13:31

Government has one job in this case. Maintaining a public transit system that is DART. Aside that, keep out.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 10 Jul 2017 00:02

Government had many jobs to develop the State Farm project. They had to facilitate the sale of land that had been for sale for 15 years. They had to change zoning since nothing in the telecom corridor was zoned anything like what State Farm became. They have built public roads, upgraded a pump station, and all other public infrastructure in the area. Government had to fight for this project, since there are a half dozen locations in DFW alone this could have been built, not even counting every other city in the US with potential TOD locations.


People (generally residents) block projects. People reduced the housing associated with this project by 25-50%.

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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tamtagon » 10 Jul 2017 10:11

The_Overdog wrote:People (generally residents) block projects. People reduced the housing associated with this project by 25-50%.


So weird that in so many parts of town, "people" work so hard to reduce housing, favoring retail, commercial and/or office space; YIKES - too much traffic!!! Too many people stacked on top of each other!! More Crime! More of the wrong sort of people. But the truth is the reverse, the opposite. In most places, there's already more than enough retail and commercial space, and it's office space the increases traffic and the opportunity of more crime.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 10 Jul 2017 10:19

This discussion is highly entertaining in that it contains how political people are about the government's role in the city success. I should expect next someone will tell us why zoning and the city doing any regulation on what is built should be abolished. Get your government hands off my land kinda talk. Then the caveats will come rolling in rapidly after.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 10 Jul 2017 23:37

cowboyeagle05 wrote:This discussion is highly entertaining in that it contains how political people are about the government's role in the city success. I should expect next someone will tell us why zoning and the city doing any regulation on what is built should be abolished. Get your government hands off my land kinda talk. Then the caveats will come rolling in rapidly after.


There are good zoning and bad zoning; likewise there are good regulations and there are bad regulations.. Placing a 50 story skyscraper in the middle of neighborhood of, at most, two story homes isn't great zoning. Allowing very flammable materials to be used to clad a skyscraper without sprinklers or fire alarms isn't great regulation.
There is a place for both, as long as they are responsible and not made just to punish developers.

Remember when neighborhood activists were protesting against a new Walmart, thinking department stores aimed at richer citizens with higher prices were better? Walmart is still growing, many other department stores are closing. Which would you rather have, an active retail store generating tax revenues or an empty building not generating as much in tax revenues?

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Jul 2017 08:56

electricron wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:This discussion is highly entertaining in that it contains how political people are about the government's role in the city success. I should expect next someone will tell us why zoning and the city doing any regulation on what is built should be abolished. Get your government hands off my land kinda talk. Then the caveats will come rolling in rapidly after.


There are good zoning and bad zoning; likewise there are good regulations and there are bad regulations.. Placing a 50 story skyscraper in the middle of neighborhood of, at most, two story homes isn't great zoning. Allowing very flammable materials to be used to clad a skyscraper without sprinklers or fire alarms isn't great regulation.
There is a place for both, as long as they are responsible and not made just to punish developers.

Remember when neighborhood activists were protesting against a new Walmart, thinking department stores aimed at richer citizens with higher prices were better? Walmart is still growing, many other department stores are closing. Which would you rather have, an active retail store generating tax revenues or an empty building not generating as much in tax revenues?


If you want my actual answer to that question I would say no to the Walmart. I would much prefer the redevelopment opportunities attached to an empty department store site over a functioning Walmart.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 11 Jul 2017 22:24

cowboyeagle05 wrote:If you want my actual answer to that question I would say no to the Walmart. I would much prefer the redevelopment opportunities attached to an empty department store site over a functioning Walmart.

What redevelopment opportunities? What replaced Big Town or Valley View Malls? Nothing generating the tax revenues those malls generated. What has replaced Reunion Arena downtown, or Texas Stadium in Irving? They're still empty wastelands after 10 years. Empty buildings and vacant land aren't great for the local communities.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 12 Jul 2017 10:20

electricron wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:If you want my actual answer to that question I would say no to the Walmart. I would much prefer the redevelopment opportunities attached to an empty department store site over a functioning Walmart.


What redevelopment opportunities? What replaced Big Town or Valley View Malls? Nothing generating the tax revenues those malls generated. What has replaced Reunion Arena downtown, or Texas Stadium in Irving? They're still empty wastelands after 10 years. Empty buildings and vacant land aren't great for the local communities.


Whoa, I was unaware that Walmart wanted the Texas Stadium site or Reunion site. Last I checked the developer who owned the Reunion site has a vision for that site that not surprisingly makes no sense economically or physically as a sprawled mega-grocery store. So I will focus on the mall sites despite the fact that neither the ones mentioned have neither been publicly stated as potentially suburban shopping centers if it wasn't for those darn kids and their urbanism idealism.

My position is a simple one I am willing to wait for something better than a suburban store model that even the Wallstreet sees as a future flop. Those malls were suburban in nature and did their time contributing to the tax burden of our modern life paying into things like DART but now is the time for better denser use of the land that contributes more than tax money from the gas tax but as a contributing neighborhood of office, residential, retail that is walkable. Walmart jobs are not quality jobs and there isn't a fresh food desert here so turning down one grocery store isn't going to sit on my conscience.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 12 Jul 2017 11:23

Walmart is still growing, many other department stores are closing.


Walmart isn't really growing, they are closing stores in general. There's actually a mostly empty old-school Walmart in my neighborhood that has been empty for close to 20 years so they aren't a generally great neighbor. Not sure it's Wal-Mart's fault though, as somebody wants $2m for just the parking lot and the property would be better rezoned by the city as housing instead of any kind of store.

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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tamtagon » 12 Jul 2017 11:49

Walmart needs to be pruned. Not until those running the company acknowledge the pruning is for its own good will it happen.

For the first time since the Red Line opened, I'm excited about the future of DART and the role of public transportation in Dallas.

In addition to refocusing bus routes most positively for the end user and just as important, DART needs to create a symbiotic and leadership role for itself in the for-hire ride share evolution.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 12 Jul 2017 12:58

I believe y'all have been missing my point.
Anything is better for the local economy than nothing!
Any job is better than no job!

For those who would rather wait for something better, that something better isn't going to come when you are busy chasing others away.

The ceos of the better companies are going to see how you treat the other companies. Your community is going to get ranked by those ceos, not on who comes to your community but by how business friendly your community is. How you treat less desirable businesses is going to affect how more desirable businesses rank you.

Dallas and Texas in general have a good record and history of being business friendly. That's why companies have been attracted to Texas. There are reasons why so many companies moving to Texas have left where they came from. Amongst the many reasons, is how those other communities treated their businesses eventually chasing them away.

Of course I would prefer to have more than just Wallmarts opening stores in Dallas - but I strongly suggest discouraging more Wallmarts is also going to discourage other businesses coming here.

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rantanamo
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby rantanamo » 12 Jul 2017 16:24

electricron wrote:I believe y'all have been missing my point.
Anything is better for the local economy than nothing!
Any job is better than no job!

For those who would rather wait for something better, that something better isn't going to come when you are busy chasing others away.

The ceos of the better companies are going to see how you treat the other companies. Your community is going to get ranked by those ceos, not on who comes to your community but by how business friendly your community is. How you treat less desirable businesses is going to affect how more desirable businesses rank you.

Dallas and Texas in general have a good record and history of being business friendly. That's why companies have been attracted to Texas. There are reasons why so many companies moving to Texas have left where they came from. Amongst the many reasons, is how those other communities treated their businesses eventually chasing them away.

Of course I would prefer to have more than just Wallmarts opening stores in Dallas - but I strongly suggest discouraging more Wallmarts is also going to discourage other businesses coming here.


I don't agree with that. It wouldn't even discourage Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart has been rejected in many DFW communities already, including Dallas. What did they do about it? Build more Wal-Marts.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Oct 2017 14:25

I used DART again to go the fair this weekend and was a great experience overall. The one thing that I think of when riding DART are the stations that could be surrounded by so much more living and density. Market Center is one I would like to see them develop all the way from the Infomart down to Market Hall by turning the entire area to a mixed use with lots of mid and highrise living in between similar to the way they are developing the design district. There are so many missed opportunities to build around the stations which would push so many more into using to train to move around the city. The developements would feed off each other with travel in between. Another spot is Park Lane that whole area could be redeveloped with density along Greenville ave. Lovers is another spot for some great dense mixed use. Come on Dallas you can do better and it won't be that hard but would transform our lightrail and city.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 23 Oct 2017 15:29

Cbdallas wrote:I used DART again to go the fair this weekend and was a great experience overall. The one thing that I think of when riding DART are the stations that could be surrounded by so much more living and density. Market Center is one I would like to see them develop all the way from the Infomart down to Market Hall by turning the entire area to a mixed use with lots of mid and highrise living in between similar to the way they are developing the design district. There are so many missed opportunities to build around the stations which would push so many more into using to train to move around the city. The developements would feed off each other with travel in between. Another spot is Park Lane that whole area could be redeveloped with density along Greenville ave. Lovers is another spot for some great dense mixed use. Come on Dallas you can do better and it won't be that hard but would transform our light rail and city.

It’s easy to propose redeveloping a low density neighborhood into a high density neighborhood when you don’t live there. It’s not so easy on the citizens living there. There will be some who can’t afford to move away from the home they own and move into a new home, there will be some who will refuse to move even if they could afford to. Those refusing to move will be quick to protest any zoning changes to their neighborhoods. There are many reasons why major changes to neighborhoods don’t occur overnight. Not only do developers have to fight city hall with every project, they have to fight neighborhood citizens organizations too. The changes you want take time, sometimes a lifetime, to occur.
Last edited by electricron on 23 Oct 2017 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Oct 2017 15:40

I was referring more to the easy wins that could be taken where there is mostly underutilized office space by infilling the space in between with higher density living and retail like market center. I realize other stations that bump right into existing neighborhoods will be more problematic but I think there are some easy winns that could occur without much pushback at several stations. I would love to hear about some kind of focused effort to plan for this but I have not heard of any organized entity that has this vision.

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tanzoak
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tanzoak » 23 Oct 2017 18:55

electricron wrote:It’s easy to propose redeveloping a low density neighborhood into a high density neighborhood when you don’t live there. It’s not so easy on the citizens living there. There will be some who can’t afford to move away from the home they own and move into a new home, there will be some who will refuse to move even if they could afford to. Those refusing to move will lol be quick to protest any zoning changes to their neighborhoods. There are many reasons why major changes to neighborhoods don’t occur overnight. Not only do developers have to fight city hall with every project, they have to fight neighborhood citizens organizations too. The changes you want take time, sometimes a lifetime, to occur.


For the most part, these aren't low-density neighborhoods. In fact, some of the highest density neighborhoods in the city, as dense or denser than Uptown (though less walkable and vibrant, and without the employment density).

The areas around the Park and Lovers DART stations are essentially exclusively multifamily renters. The area immediately adjacent (like 1/4 mi radius) to Market Center DART is majority single-family (and bare majority owners), but beyond that is mostly multi-family.

The area south of Lovers is already redeveloping, but at a lower density than it should be (MF-1), especially considering its transit-adjacency. The PD916 area (The Village Apartments) allows about twice the existing density (12,360 vs ~6,900 existing, according to the census). Lincoln Properties has a master plan that maxes out that density, though I have no idea about the current status of the project.

The area around Park is zoned MU-3 (the highest density zoning outside of downtown) off of Greenville and MF-2 (low-rise multifam) further out. Greenville could be totally transformed if demand got there (it's currently a wasteland), but the residential areas are tapped out under current zoning. The lack of movement on Greenville tells me that even if you changed the MF-2 areas to MF-3, not much would happen, as you can build 20 stories on Greenville as it is.

The area around Market Center is zoned for small-lot townhouses and low-rise multifam (TH-3 and MF-2), which feels kind of low for such a central location. Still, there is zoned capacity, especially in the area immediately adjacent to the station.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 24 Oct 2017 08:08

Commercial property developers don’t necessarily want residential tenants. Market Center is set up for conventions and merchandizing shows. Which can be too noisy for residents attempting to rest and sleep. Different zonmg requires different ambient noise levels, different lighting levels, etc.
One size doesn’t fit all.
I’m sure mixed zoning areas can work when every home and business fits into an overall plan. I just don’t see Market Center area ever being a successful mixed zone short of tearing down the Markets and starting completely anew. They were not planned or built to be apart of a mixed zone.

There’s more to building a successful mixed building than building three, four, and five story buildings. There’s different access requirements for residents and businesses, there’s soundproofing between zones, there’s mix voltages electrical lines, etc. The differences have to be planned and executed properly. If that building wasn’t designed for mixed zoning, it will require a major refurbishment to turn it into one.

Not every property owner will want to spend more money on their buildings to turn it into a mixed zoning building. And governments shouldn’t force them into spending more money to do so. What government should do is allow landowners the ability to do so if they wish and the surrounding neighbors don’t object.

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tanzoak
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tanzoak » 24 Oct 2017 11:27

electricron wrote:Not every property owner will want to spend more money on their buildings to turn it into a mixed zoning building. And governments shouldn’t force them into spending more money to do so. What government should do is allow landowners the ability to do so if they wish and the surrounding neighbors don’t object.


Designation of a mixed-use zone does not require new buildings to be mixed-use (it just allows for variety of uses and provides density and height bonuses for in-building mixed-use), and it certainly does not require existing structures to be rebuilt or retrofitted in any way.

When I first read Cbdallas's post, I didn't realize he meant the actual Market Center sliver between Harry Hines and Stemmons. You both may be interested to know that that area is already zoned MU-3 (i.e. high-density mixed use)! But I wouldn't hold my breath about that being redeveloped. Those are valuable buildings.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 25 Oct 2017 09:16

The whole time I was thinking more the residential/commercial area on the north side of the station. Aka the land between Harry Hines and Maple. Which has slowly started to see some land buy-ups. I wonder if they will end up replacing those single family homes with the same 5-6 story apartment blocks like they have been between Maple and Cedar Springs or if we will see townhomes. I don't expect a tower unless a developer is buying lots of land for a larger project.

Already some older retail structures have been torn down this week at Wyclif and Maple. It is making some residents nervous about the reality that the demographics are changing in what has been a largely Hispanic neighborhood.

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tanzoak
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tanzoak » 25 Oct 2017 09:56

cowboyeagle05 wrote:The whole time I was thinking more the residential/commercial area on the north side of the station. Aka the land between Harry Hines and Maple. Which has slowly started to see some land buy-ups. I wonder if they will end up replacing those single family homes with the same 5-6 story apartment blocks like they have been between Maple and Cedar Springs or if we will see townhomes. I don't expect a tower unless a developer is buying lots of land for a larger project.

Already some older retail structures have been torn down this week at Wyclif and Maple. It is making some residents nervous about the reality that the demographics are changing in what has been a largely Hispanic neighborhood.


Yeah, so that's what I was initially looking at, because that's the area that is actually likely to change. It's currently only zoned TH-3 and MF-2. Those are small-to-medium-lot townhouse zoning designations with 36' height limits, so unless the zoning gets changed, you won't see those 5-6 story midrises and definitely no towers.

That's too low of zoning for such a central location near transit (and the highway), in my opinion.
Last edited by tanzoak on 25 Oct 2017 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

DPatel304
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby DPatel304 » 25 Oct 2017 10:01

Cbdallas wrote:I was referring more to the easy wins that could be taken where there is mostly underutilized office space by infilling the space in between with higher density living and retail like market center. I realize other stations that bump right into existing neighborhoods will be more problematic but I think there are some easy winns that could occur without much pushback at several stations. I would love to hear about some kind of focused effort to plan for this but I have not heard of any organized entity that has this vision.


We talk about the CBD needing to hit 'critical mass' before things really take off, and I think the same applies to DART. At the moment, DART just simply isn't desirable for most of the metroplex and it's a chicken and egg scenario. It's not desirable because it doesn't (conveniently) service enough places, but, because it's not desirable, any area that is near a DART rail station treats it like an after-thought.

We need to get past the tipping point where developers actually want to be near DART rail. I'd say we are close to that happening. The D2 line will make the entire system a lot more usable and also add a few new stations in desirable areas. The Epic development should help a little, and the HSR will also bring a lot of demand to DART rail. Victory Park will soon be a pretty lively area, and, maybe Cityplace will pick up if we ever get development on the east side. There are a few more out in the suburbs, but I'd say once we have enough destinations near Downtown along DART rail, things will really pick up elsewhere.

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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 25 Oct 2017 10:28

DART needs to stop trying to be all things to everyone, and instead concentrate on doing key things VERY WELL. This means reducing and streamlining bus routes, and making them run much more frequenty. I understand this will hit them hard on the statistical coverage assessments as it will show a lower percentage of service to users within 1/4 mile walk of a stop, but in providing a far better service to those users, it should easily offset actual impact.
In the longer term, autonomous ride sharing will fill the role of buses and a vast majority of bus routes will become obsolete. I remember that '10-year' bus plan assessment talk... what a joke. The greatest strength of bus fleet is it's flexibility, and yet DART can't even recognize that.
Make changes now, and in ten years, you won't even need to worry about buses.
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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 26 Oct 2017 22:26

Ouch. Having ridden the Green Line every day for 6 years, cant say I disagree that this is a problem because it is. Vagrants on the train, West End station is shall we say "salty." So many opportunities to improve operations but as Ive said for years, DART sucks at running a business...

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... years-done

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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 27 Oct 2017 10:13

Alex Rodriguez wrote:Ouch. Having ridden the Green Line every day for 6 years, cant say I disagree that this is a problem because it is. Vagrants on the train, West End station is shall we say "salty." So many opportunities to improve operations but as Ive said for years, DART sucks at running a business...

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... years-done


A few months ago, as my son and I were riding the Orange line from West End station through VP, northward, there was an individual shouting out profanities and openly threatening 'white people'. In particular, he targeted a middle aged couple with a constant onslaught of vulgarities and threats, disappointingly to the cheers and knee slapping of other, unrelated observers. As my son (mixed race) clinched my arm while whispering "but daddy, your white..." I had to reassure him that nothing bad was going to happen.
I don't ride DART frequently, but certainly on occasion, and this was the third time I have witnessed similar events. The sad part is that we had just returned from a 2500 mile/15 day rail excursion across the country, using public transit in numerous cities, and the worse experience (by far) was that short jaunt from the West End to Las Colinas on DART.
I hope that I have just been unlucky, but if other have similar experiences, it may explain why folks feel threatened to ride. It certainly doesn't bother me, as I'm used to it and have almost come to expect it to a degree, but if I were that other couple, there is no way I'd ever step foot on DART again.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 27 Oct 2017 10:35

muncien wrote:
Alex Rodriguez wrote:Ouch. Having ridden the Green Line every day for 6 years, cant say I disagree that this is a problem because it is. Vagrants on the train, West End station is shall we say "salty." So many opportunities to improve operations but as Ive said for years, DART sucks at running a business...

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... years-done


A few months ago, as my son and I were riding the Orange line from West End station through VP, northward, there was an individual shouting out profanities and openly threatening 'white people'. In particular, he targeted a middle aged couple with a constant onslaught of vulgarities and threats, disappointingly to the cheers and knee slapping of other, unrelated observers. As my son (mixed race) clinched my arm while whispering "but daddy, your white..." I had to reassure him that nothing bad was going to happen.
I don't ride DART frequently, but certainly on occasion, and this was the third time I have witnessed similar events. The sad part is that we had just returned from a 2500 mile/15 day rail excursion across the country, using public transit in numerous cities, and the worse experience (by far) was that short jaunt from the West End to Las Colinas on DART.
I hope that I have just been unlucky, but if other have similar experiences, it may explain why folks feel threatened to ride. It certainly doesn't bother me, as I'm used to it and have almost come to expect it to a degree, but if I were that other couple, there is no way I'd ever step foot on DART again.


Ride DART everyday..The mentally ill apparently have free passes or it already seems that way. I have several stories.. One time I got on the train at West End and this guy sat next to me.. he started saying he could read my mind..then he started yelling at this obese person on a scooter calling them a pedophile and saying they were a fat terrorist..The guy kept talking to himself through out the ride .. I finally got off and told a police at Pearl to get him off. The cop wasn't a Dart officer either. I had to get up keep the door open and yell across the street. The Dart operator kept trying to shut the doors ..so i literally had to have one foot in and one foot out of the train. So the cop could come and get him.

Other story, I saw an older man, who was clearly homeless, on the train sitting there... He saw me carrying a computer science book in my hand.. and he started shouting out loud C++ code syntax "STD::COUT".. this was sad. It was clear that at one point this person was maybe a programmer or a software engineer who sadly fell ill. The man started to settle to down as more people got on the train. He then got off and went on his way.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Oct 2017 11:25

I can't even remember the last time I saw someone checking tickets on a train. The honor system only works if it is policed heavily otherwise we need to gate up the whole system and if caught without a ticket the penalty is way higher.

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flyswatter
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby flyswatter » 27 Oct 2017 11:28

Cbdallas wrote:I can't even remember the last time I saw someone checking tickets on a train. The honor system only works if it is policed heavily otherwise we need to gate up the whole system and if caught without a ticket the penalty is way higher.


I have only seen them check tickets in the Cityplace Station, and it's probably because there's no cellphone service down there to quickly buy a ticket on the app if you see them coming towards you!

DPatel304
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby DPatel304 » 27 Oct 2017 13:37

Cbdallas wrote:I can't even remember the last time I saw someone checking tickets on a train. The honor system only works if it is policed heavily otherwise we need to gate up the whole system and if caught without a ticket the penalty is way higher.


I wonder how costly it would be to gate up the whole system. I totally agree with you, as I think it would really change things for the better, I'm just wondering why this hasn't been a priority for them.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 27 Oct 2017 14:15

DPatel304 wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:I can't even remember the last time I saw someone checking tickets on a train. The honor system only works if it is policed heavily otherwise we need to gate up the whole system and if caught without a ticket the penalty is way higher.


I wonder how costly it would be to gate up the whole system. I totally agree with you, as I think it would really change things for the better, I'm just wondering why this hasn't been a priority for them.


They don't care.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Oct 2017 14:34

Gating up the stations could also make for better security while waiting for the train. Anyone have a guest what it would cost to create secured entry to the stations with ticket or phone app entry from outside like other cities.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 27 Oct 2017 20:12

Cbdallas wrote:Gating up the stations could also make for better security while waiting for the train. Anyone have a guest what it would cost to create secured entry to the stations with ticket or phone app entry from outside like other cities.

It’ll cost a lot more than what they will earn with increase fares. All of DART’s at grade stations were built with open access in mind, and that includes the Rowlett Station. Only DART’s elevated and subway stations would be easy to install turnstiles, which aren’t that difficult for those who would jump over them. A better solution is to hire more DART police to chase undesirables away.

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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 30 Oct 2017 08:17

electricron wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:Gating up the stations could also make for better security while waiting for the train. Anyone have a guest what it would cost to create secured entry to the stations with ticket or phone app entry from outside like other cities.

It’ll cost a lot more than what they will earn with increase fares. All of DART’s at grade stations were built with open access in mind, and that includes the Rowlett Station. Only DART’s elevated and subway stations would be easy to install turnstiles, which aren’t that difficult for those who would jump over them. A better solution is to hire more DART police to chase undesirables away.


I agree... I really don't think the benefit of gated facilities make up for the costs associated with them. A greater security presence, and more harsh penalties for not paying a fare, or other simple violations (litter, loud music, food/drink, etc.) would all help in creating a safer environment.

But, it has to be more than simply showing up. Too often, we just see security personnel along for the ride, but not doing anything. Even if they aren't authorized to check for tickets (which any law enforcement should be allowed to do), they should walk the trains and interact with the passengers. If they do so in a friendly manner, they can make offenders think twice before considering bad behavior...
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lakewoodhobo
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby lakewoodhobo » 31 Oct 2017 11:07

I'm writing something for my neighborhood association about Hampton Station but wanted to make sure I had my facts correct. Are there any other DART stations that have indoor waiting areas with bathrooms and vending machines? Cityplace is clearly indoors and likely has restrooms, but all other stations appear to be out in the open with few amenities.

This station could really use some bar seating, charging stations and better vending machines (transit proof, of course).

Image

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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 31 Oct 2017 11:17

I know many of the 'Transit Centers' have indoor seating areas like this. Not sure about vending or rest rooms though. The North Irving Transit Center is a bit of a ghost town. Most services have been transition to the nearby Orange Line Stations (Convention Center & Urban Center). It's at a prime location along NW Highway, and should be sold off for redevelopment... like years ago. Tax dollars at work!
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 31 Oct 2017 11:39

lakewoodhobo wrote:I'm writing something for my neighborhood association about Hampton Station but wanted to make sure I had my facts correct. Are there any other DART stations that have indoor waiting areas with bathrooms and vending machines? Cityplace is clearly indoors and likely has restrooms, but all other stations appear to be out in the open with few amenities.

This station could really use some bar seating, charging stations and better vending machines (transit proof, of course).

Image



With the exception of city place no other station has this.

DFW station has those amenities nearby but they're part of the terminal(s) and not the actual station.

As mention the transit center for buses have bathrooms. However, I have not seen vending machines at the locations.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 31 Oct 2017 15:22

Downtown Garland Bus Transfer Station which sits across Walnut street from the Downtown Garland light rail station. What it looks like today I am not sure since I live in Dallas now. When I last used it though it had restrooms and soda machines.

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 31 Oct 2017 20:12

There are no public restrooms or snack machines in Cityplace Station.

Downtown Irving, Addison, Arapaho,and Ledbetter have restrooms and snack machines. I am not sure about Parker Road.

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 01 Nov 2017 18:36

This is a great question as different stations offer passengers different amenities.

As mentioned earlier, stations with the sort of configuration in the photo are rail stations with transit centers literally built into the framework of the station. They feature restrooms, vending machines, and a station agent during certain hours. All are located in the south and include: Hampton, Ledbetter, and Illinois Stations.

Other locations with enclosed passenger areas operated by DART but built separately from the adjacent rail station include: Lake June, MLK Jr, Arapaho Center, Parker Road, Downtown Garland, and West End Stations. All of these have varying degrees of access i.e. Lake June's indoor passenger area is practically built into the station whereas you have to cross busy streets to get to Downtown Garland's or the West Bus Transfer Center at West End.

Then you have outliers like Irving Convention Center Station which is connected by winding pathway to the North Irving Transit Center, and Union Station which technically does have a rest area and restrooms inside the historical terminal but is not always open.

Finally, while it does not have an enclosed passenger area, Westmoreland Station did have publicly accessible restrooms behind the employees only building at the end of the platform, have not checked if they're still unlocked though.

So long story short:
Ledbetter, Illinois, Hampton, Lake June, MLK Jr, Arapaho Center, Parker Road, Downtown Garland, Irving Convention Center, West End, and Union Station
all have enclosed passenger areas with restrooms and (usually) functioning vending machines.

I just love mapping out the rail system and happened to catalog station amenities a while back :geek: :P

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby lakewoodhobo » 02 Nov 2017 12:07

Great feedback, guys. Thanks for the detailed responses.

DART really needs a plan to modernize these amenities. Pay phones should give way to charging stations, vending machines should be RFID enabled and some stops could benefit from having Amazon lockers, for example. If West End and the Transfer Center weren't such a mess, it would be a great place for free Wi-Fi, cafe seating, etc. Same for Union Station.

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art_suckz
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby art_suckz » 23 Feb 2018 10:27

I searched for the old "DART Experience" thread but couldn't find it... So here goes.

Last Saturday morning (3:03 train) I decided that paying $2.50 to go from Victory to DFW on the train was a good idea. It sort of turned out to be a pretty shocking experience... shocking and sad.

First off, was the assault of the senses. The train was almost full, full of homeless people and the smell of urine. Most were sprawled out or hunched over seats trying to sleep.

Pretty quick out of the station I was witnessing a confrontation between two people... one was accusing the other of some offense and kept at the other person until they got up to silently hobble away for another seat. As the guy was walking away he managed to drop about 4 Halls cough drops on the floor. The guy that was verbally attacking the other stopped and looked at the floor to say, "2 vials, 4 vials, 6, vials, 8 vials... that's $4 million dollars right there...." Ok, I just decided to stay out of eye contact with that person. He then proceeded to pull out an iPad and mostly leave others alone from then on.

Between Victory and Bachman I saw a guy smoking and another guy drinking booze straight out of a bottle before shoving it under the seat when it was empty... OK, maybe they will all get off before the train splits and heads to the airport. Wasn't so lucky.

The train went down for maintenance and everyone slowly spilled out onto the platform to switch over to a backup train. That's where I was approached for money by a guy and tried to avoid another dude walking around with an unsheathed box cutter. Everyone then boarded the new train, presumably on their way to catch a flight out of town at DFW. Of course, once we reached DFW, no one got off and instead just kept riding the homeless train to nowhere.

Obviously at no point was there any DART police or fare enforcement present. Considering this was the first train of the day, you would think it was a pattern for them to look for the first "free" shelter available. DART has to know of this... but doesn't care about making an effort to deal with it.

On the way back I went ahead and checked out the train before getting on. This was about midnight Monday night. The train was mostly empty so I figured I'd take a chance.

For the most part, the journey was fine. I smelled pot once about halfway back. Then about 2 stops before Victory two fellows got on the middle car with me. One was carrying a share bike thing... Once the train got started the guy with the bike called out, "Hey, you just going to stand there? Sit down." I responded, "I've got two stops then I'm off." That was probably a mistake because the guy got a little more aggressive with the conversation basically implying that I needed to move away from them. I walked up to the front car and got off at Victory.

Considering Dallas thinks they have a shot at getting the Amazon HQ2, someone has some work to do.
Last edited by art_suckz on 23 Feb 2018 11:56, edited 1 time in total.
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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 23 Feb 2018 11:43

I don't recall smelling urine any time recently, but other than that, it sounds pretty typical of every other ride I've had on DART. But at least on a train you have a little more room to move around when needed. Buses on the other hand make things a bit more 'intimate'... although I assume everyone has a pass of some sort there.
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mdg109
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby mdg109 » 23 Feb 2018 12:43

I know it sounds futile, but is there anyone to contact at Dart, Dallas 311, or a council member that could possibly help out with this?

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 24 Feb 2018 17:02

Once daily and monthly passes were implemented, making it just as cheap to ride the trains all day long as two trips, once for the morning commute and another for the evening commute, they invited homesteaders or squatters to move in.

To eliminate this they will have to rethink how they collect fares. Many transit agencies charge using cards and fare zones, where you tap in and off the train. If you forget to tap off the train after a certain amount of time, you are charge a fare for every zone, and the bill will increase fast.
I don’t think DART wants to charge fares this way, but it’s about the only way to avoid homesteaders or squatters. There are no laws that prevent passengers from riding the trains all day long if they wish.

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muncien
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby muncien » 07 Mar 2018 10:53

DART has a new 'See Something Say Something' app to report stuffs... I think it just went live today, but not sure. It may be useful to those who ride frequently and see issues like we have mentioned earlier in this thread, but didnt feel they warranted a 911 call. Not sure how much help it will be, but its a good start.
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art_suckz
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby art_suckz » 09 Mar 2018 11:19

I saw the app news on Twitter and came here to add it to the thread. Good to see other people are aware of it :- )

Grapevine is getting a BEAUTIFUL new $105-million Texrail station and it will connect to DART... would be quite a shock to see a pack of vagrants roll out of the carriages there.

I am not a completely heartless person but I really hope they get this under control. The quality of our train system and effective resources for the homeless are two different issues, we can't ignore one aspect of our city just because there's no place for the homeless to rest.
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.


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