Dallas Area Rapid Transit

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Amen.

[exelone31]

Not sure how many other P1's are on the forum, but I noticed DART has been promoting their new website, http://dartable.dart.org/, during Ticket Tickers.

It's nice and I am glad they are trying to list out different "DART Gems" that people can explore. Plus they're promoting on places like The Ticket.

[jrd1964]

Good to see that SeaBass, Justin, Ty, and the other tickerers are getting the word out.

[Cbdallas]

Last two rides on the train I noticed that ticket checking was happining much more often than usual. I hope DART can keep up this level of verifying tickets to riders.

[TNWE]

Last two rides on the train I noticed that ticket checking was happining much more often than usual. I hope DART can keep up this level of verifying tickets to riders.

The GoPass Tap trial period is supposed to begin soon- I saw someone post about in on facebook...I wonder if they're stepping up fare enforcement staffing to ensure the enough testers encounter fare enforcement on trains so they know the validation equipment works correctly before the broader rollout

[cowboyeagle05]

I signed up for the Tap Card beta testing program. My card should arrive by the 24th they tell me.

I currently use the app to buy an $80.00 monthly pass. I will be curious if this tap card is better for me than using that. I am always around an electrical outlet so my phone is never running out of juice to show the bus driver my ticket. I ride the same bus to work and home 5 days a week. On weekends I use my car if I need to leave my apartment if my friends aren't driving. I don't know if this will provide me any savings since depending on how you calculate it I could be saving money by buying individual tickets vs the monthly pass but I am willing to help test things out.

[TNWE]

I signed up for the Tap Card beta testing program. My card should arrive by the 24th they tell me.

I currently use the app to buy an $80.00 monthly pass. I will be curious if this tap card is better for me than using that. I am always around an electrical outlet so my phone is never running out of juice to show the bus driver my ticket. I ride the same bus to work and home 5 days a week. On weekends I use my car if I need to leave my apartment if my friends aren't driving. I don't know if this will provide me any savings since depending on how you calculate it I could be saving money by buying individual tickets vs the monthly pass but I am willing to help test things out.

I'm not currently a monthly pass user, but presumably if you take time off work or drive a few days out of the month, you might see some savings (I think the break even is 16 days at the $6 daily cap). I know when I was working downtown a few years ago it was frustrating to have just bought a month pass and find out a few days later that my company wanted me at another location for a week or two. I guess DART figures there are enough people with variable work situations who don't ride at all because they don't want to get stuck between 1) paying $80 upfront and not using it much or 2) paying by the trip/day and spending much more than $80 per month.

I'm excited for the daily capping function, if only because I don't always know if I'll need a day pass when I leave, so being able to combine AM/Midday/PM passes based on when I actually ride DART will be nice. Also my phone battery is getting less and less reliable so I'm happy to not be reliant on iOS battery management .

[cowboyeagle05]

I ride the bus twice a day 5 days a week to work and back. Get my car out on the weekends just to make sure the battery doesn't die.

If you compare that this month that means I would pay $5 a day for 5 days a week so this month it would be $110 if I bought a ticket each day. With the monthly pass, I paid $80 flat so there is obviously a savings there but I need to relook at the tap card rates to see if it will truly end up costing me more money. I work at the same building every day so no serious breaks except when the big holidays come up like Christmas or Thanksgiving.

Here’s how it works: You will purchase a GoPass Tap Card for any initial amount you choose between $6 and $200 at participating retailers. We encourage you to then register your card at GoPass.org to protect the balance on your card in case you lose it as well as other benefits.

Once you have your card, just touch your GoPass ® Tap card to the electronic reader every time you board or transfer on a bus or train. Your fare will be deducted automatically and you’ll be charged the best fare every time you ride. Once your monthly trips reach the total cost of a monthly pass, your remaining trips in any calendar month are free.

Fare capping also will be available soon in the enhanced GoPass app. If you have any other questions related to this, visit DART.org/farerestructure.

Sounds like it will work for me because maybe once a week I catch a ride home with a friend from Yoga so I maybe wouldn't pay as much that day. That could be money that goes to the next month so it will be a test for me for sure. Best thing is I won't pay more than the current monthly pass amount if I ride more than my monthly allowance.

[ArtVandelay]

I signed up for the Tap Card beta testing program. My card should arrive by the 24th they tell me.

I currently use the app to buy an $80.00 monthly pass. I will be curious if this tap card is better for me than using that. I am always around an electrical outlet so my phone is never running out of juice to show the bus driver my ticket. I ride the same bus to work and home 5 days a week. On weekends I use my car if I need to leave my apartment if my friends aren't driving. I don't know if this will provide me any savings since depending on how you calculate it I could be saving money by buying individual tickets vs the monthly pass but I am willing to help test things out.

Did you receive it? I haven’t received mine.

[cowboyeagle05]

I have not checked my mail in three days so I might have but DART did email me last week saying it should arrive by the 24th.

[lakewoodhobo]

Very cool to finally see video of the Knox/Henderson station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ssAvjXtGDw

[TNWE]

Very cool to finally see video of the Knox/Henderson station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ssAvjXtGDw

Saw that earlier. Kind of amazing how much digging was done down there, and the way the DART spokesman kept describing it as an "unused station" [IIRC] and not a partially completed station.

It adds to my skepticism about the cost estimates for finishing it out, since there's already an island platform and tunnel box roughed out. Unless they're planning to have one guy build a painstakingly detailed "public art" mosaic out of tiny bits of glass for the walls of the train tunnels, I can't see why they'd be limited to only doing work when the trains aren't running, other than some smaller, discrete tasks like finishing out the platform edges and installing lighting that could be done on a weekend or Holiday.

[dfwcre8tive]

Very cool to finally see video of the Knox/Henderson station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ssAvjXtGDw

Here's the article with additional photos: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... looks-like

[Matt777]

That DMN article says it would only be $15-20 million to finish the station.... so why hasn't this been done when the city has spent money on stupid things like $6 million to build and then remove a river rapid, or wanting to spend $30 million for free welfare money to Angela Hunt and her wealthy developer buddies?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

That DMN article says it would only be $15-20 million to finish the station.... so why hasn't this been done when the city has spent money on stupid things like $6 million to build and then remove a river rapid, or wanting to spend $30 million for free welfare money to Angela Hunt and her wealthy developer buddies?

Not to mention millions on renderings of a fake park.

[The_Overdog]

People have only started seriously asking for it to be finished out in the past few years - these kinds of things can take time to get budgeted and accounted for.

[DPatel304]

It's not just a money issue, right? The neighborhood is still against it?

[lakewoodhobo]

It's not just a money issue, right? The neighborhood is still against it?

I'd like to know which neighborhood associations opposed this station (maybe Vickery Place?) but I have a feeling the most vocal opponents have moved on, gone elsewhere, or have been priced out.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I was surprised by that $15-$20 million figure. In the past I've seen figures of around $100 million. But ignoring that, $15-20 just sounds too low to be reasonable. It would probably cost that much to build a barebones ground-level station.

As for the neighborhood opposition, I doubt it has changed much. Time has shown that the naysayers were correct.

[CTroyMathis]

I have not checked my mail in three days so I might have but DART did email me last week saying it should arrive by the 24th.

I got an email today saying that it will be shipped today after a delay for more internal testing.

[dch526]

It's not just a money issue, right? The neighborhood is still against it?

I'd like to know which neighborhood associations opposed this station (maybe Vickery Place?) but I have a feeling the most vocal opponents have moved on, gone elsewhere, or have been priced out.

Because of initial Vickery Place neighborhood objections, DART did not complete Knox–Henderson Station as part of its initial phase as planned.[2] The station's shell, considered a ghost station, serves as an emergency exit from the tunnel

By the mid-1990s, attitudes towards the station began to shift with the neighborhood actively petitioning DART to construct the station.[2] However, funding problems related to the deferred construction doomed the station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox%E2%80%93Henderson_station

[dch526]

That DMN article says it would only be $15-20 million to finish the station.... so why hasn't this been done when the city has spent money on stupid things like $6 million to build and then remove a river rapid, or wanting to spend $30 million for free welfare money to Angela Hunt and her wealthy developer buddies?

I don't think the DMN is taking everything into account.

By 2006, DART announced it would cost an estimated $100 million to complete and open Knox–Henderson Station.[3] The large price tag was attributed to the high labor and infrastructure costs associated with working underground near actively used tracks. In order to avoid interfering with existing rail service, tunneling and station construction work could only be carried out for four hours per day, between midnight and 4 a.m., when trains are not running.[3] Due to the high costs involved, DART stated that it was deferring construction of the station indefinitely.[3]

In January 2007, DART published the final version of its comprehensive 2030 Transit System Plan. The plan contained no provisions for finishing or opening the station by 2030, and responded to public comments requesting completion of the station by declaring, "There are no plans for a station in the Knox-Henderson area."[4] As of 2013, DART does not list Knox–Henderson Station in its future expansion plans.

I, personally, would love to have a station here but not for $100 Million. Maybe if there's some situation in the future that requires this section of line to be shut down to replace tracks or something then add this station into the project so crews could work the full time and not have the risk of trains running on the tracks and maybe that $15-20M price tag becomes more realistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox%E2%80%93Henderson_station#cite_note-April_29,_1995-2

[The_Overdog]

I don't think $15m is correct. The video basically shows a stair-case sized vault to get people down below the surface and more like a human-sized tunnel to interface with the actual railroad tracks which are in a single-train sized tunnel.

The CityPlace stations looks like the following:
https://www.dart.org/maps/facilityoverv ... tation.asp

So the middle area would need to be tunneled and vaulted to create the platform and the staircase sized vault expanded to have space for escalators and elevators.

If the middle platform is already vaulted and you just have to build out a station, then maybe $15m is correct.

[cowboyeagle05]

The video only shows a small part of the station that is currently built. I believe there are more access areas dug out than whats in the video but the staircase seen in the DMN is the easiest way to keep things safe and secure from nosey people. Mind you I agree its a costly enterprise opening things up from a job half done from decadesss past.

[muncien]

DART is also notorious for going with the most costly, overbuilt, unnecessary, option available... So, the 100m isn't surprising. But the reality of building a simple, functional station is probably half that.

[Matt777]

Yeah, if the station truly is already "dug out" and just needs finishing and elevators and such, it shouldn't be too much. There's no need to make it fancy. It it's a concrete shell, commission artists to make it interesting on the cheap. Murals, neon, sculpture, etc. Maybe a water feature. Done.

[Tucy]

FIFY

DALLAS is also notorious for going with the most costly, overbuilt, unnecessary, option available... So, the 100m isn't surprising. But the reality of building a simple, functional station is probably half that.

[cowboyeagle05]

I like transit in this town and I can agree with that statement. DART aka Dallas in general likes the pricey option but doesn't go all the way either so its always pricey cheap quality if that makes sense. Too much for what we get but not enough to be an actual high-quality product.

[TNWE]

Yeah, if the station truly is already "dug out" and just needs finishing and elevators and such, it shouldn't be too much. There's no need to make it fancy. It it's a concrete shell, commission artists to make it interesting on the cheap. Murals, neon, sculpture, etc. Maybe a water feature. Done.

MARTA's underground stations don't even bother covering the tunnel walls, tho they cut through granite to dig their lines. We don't need a fancy tile mosaic like at Cityplace.

[electricron]

When MARTA built its mostly subway lines there was no, or at least less federal requirements to spend as much on art as DART had to meet to qualify for federal funding. DART rarely spent more than the minimum required by the federal government, which is why it was done but done as cheap as possible. The only places I’m aware DART spent more than the minimum, either the local city, local developers, or local community organizations picked up the extra expense.

[CTroyMathis]

I have not checked my mail in three days so I might have but DART did email me last week saying it should arrive by the 24th.

I got an email today saying that it will be shipped today after a delay for more internal testing.

It's likely it's in your mail box now. I received mine on Friday I believe.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yeah, I got my TapCard but the registration website to activate the card is still not up nor is the google group they want us to join so I had to use my phone app this morning.

[electricron]

It's been almost a month now, has anyone been able to get their tap card to work?
I dislike threads that leave things or issues like this unfinished.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yeah, mine works every day. The few times the tap card system has been down the bus driver just waves me on. Which has happened about 4 times in total and the google group where they are asking people to post about issues is abuzz with more people trying to convince DART to make changes all over the place. Some ask why if the card has a black magnetic stripe can you not swipe the card if the tap reader isn't working. DART's answer it would require a whole backend change for that system lol. Others are just confused to the new AM and PM system to the ride fee structure and proposing all kinds of changes.

It came with 35$ on it and once the BETA is over in mid September they plan to give us another 75$ on the card.

[itsjrd1964]

Well, kids, time to pay more!! Here's all the scoop with a chart of all the fare changes:
http://www.dart.org/fares/2018farerestructure.asp

[itsjrd1964]

Also, on August 27, some service changes... but it looks like they will be slight in both routing and timing. Several routes are affected; one of the major newsbits regards routes that used the I-35E HOV lanes that recently closed for the "Southern Gateway" construction project south of downtown. Reroutes for those buses are included in the changes.

http://www.dart.org/about/servicechange ... change.asp

[flyswatter]

Low ridership = higher fares...that'll definitely get more people on!

[TNWE]

Low ridership = higher fares...that'll definitely get more people on!

For the AM/PM commuter, sure, it goes up a buck. The big change in the fare structure is that people no longer have to decide in advance whether they need a day pass or single ride. Plus, the PM pass (at $3) costs a little more than the current 2 hr pass, but gets you 12+ hours of rides for that $3.

Obviously they still need to work on reliability and on-time buses, but hopefully the new tap cards will give them the data they need to see what sort of connections riders are making and optimize accordingly.

[muncien]

Low ridership = higher fares...that'll definitely get more people on!

For the AM/PM commuter, sure, it goes up a buck. The big change in the fare structure is that people no longer have to decide in advance whether they need a day pass or single ride. Plus, the PM pass (at $3) costs a little more than the current 2 hr pass, but gets you 12+ hours of rides for that $3.

Obviously they still need to work on reliability and on-time buses, but hopefully the new tap cards will give them the data they need to see what sort of connections riders are making and optimize accordingly.

Bummer for commuters...
But for 'casual' riders, this is quite nice. It was always difficult to justify buying a 'Day Pass' just to go to an event at AA Center; particularly when you have a family or group. Five people paying $5 bucks each to ride a very infrequent bus down an extremely convoluted route, to an annoyingly slow train costs $25 and 90 mins each way. Dealing with the cost of parking your car and being stuck in traffic was typically a better option. Now, they seem a little more competitive.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well, its great for me as a commuter because the locked in price is as its always been except what they raised it to of course. Also if I start pulling back on ride the bus all the time for some reason I can save money if I don't reach the monthly cap.

[Cbdallas]

Saturday night at about 7pm I rode the red line from Cityplace uptown station down to the convention center to see the Aurora light installation at city hall. It was nice to see the trains full and standing room only heading downtown on a Weekend night. I can't help but think if we could increase programming downtown every weekend could be like this drawing people from all over DFW into our city via trains. As downtown and the surrounding areas at the center continue to urbanize and densify I think this will become more of a new normal.

[tamtagon]

^How long does it take to get from Cityplace to the CC?

Reaching at least a few stations up the line, that's pretty much how the light rail should work. A 30 minute train ride into town from your neighborhood park-n-ride is totally acceptable, longer than that and driving is an easier option. It'll be population density that puts the train to work, and increases the need for express trains from the (further out) suburbs.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

^How long does it take to get from Cityplace to the CC?

Reaching at least a few stations up the line, that's pretty much how the light rail should work. A 30 minute train ride into town from your neighborhood park-n-ride is totally acceptable, longer than that and driving is an easier option. It'll be population density that puts the train to work, and increases the need for express trains from the (further out) suburbs.

14 min assuming no abnormal interruptions.

[itsjrd1964]

It takes me the better part of 2+ hours on DART coming home from work on a trip that probably should take no more than 30 minutes tops. I've had commutes of 1 1/2-2 1/2 hours using DART before. Very frustrating. Add to that escalators and elevators that might work sometimes, but are a roll of the dice way too often. The big east down escalator has been down for *a while* now. One day, I had to go down the steps of the east stairs and the shorter set to the train platform. None of the mechanical versions worked or weren't on. That many steps for someone with bad knees is truly not cute. I've gotten to where I take the bus an extra step to work to get around the Cityplace surprise. If the D2 route becomes a reality, DART is going to have to be better about keeping things repaired when it comes to whisking folks up and down at the future underground stations.

[muncien]

It takes me the better part of 2+ hours on DART coming home from work on a trip that probably should take no more than 30 minutes tops. I've had commutes of 1 1/2-2 1/2 hours using DART before. Very frustrating. Add to that escalators and elevators that might work sometimes, but are a roll of the dice way too often. The big east down escalator has been down for *a while* now. One day, I had to go down the steps of the east stairs and the shorter set to the train platform. None of the mechanical versions worked or weren't on. That many steps for someone with bad knees is truly not cute. I've gotten to where I take the bus an extra step to work to get around the Cityplace surprise. If the D2 route becomes a reality, DART is going to have to be better about keeping things repaired when it comes to whisking folks up and down at the future underground stations.

The depths of underground stations are known to impact ridership. This is part of the problem with an underground system in Dallas. Our soils (much of of it historic riverbed) are very poor for boring through and we are forced to go deeper to find more solid rock. While looking at a pretty rail transit map won't show the problem, users most certainly do. At such depths, the number of stations gets reduced, and the time it takes to get to/from those stations increases. But hey... at least we can call ourselves a 'big ol city' now. lol
Much of NYC transit success is based on the fact that you typically only have to go down one or two flights of stairs. The new second ave line is the exception as it is going much deeper... and commuters are fired up about it.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Actually the limestone in this area is one of the best materials for tunnelling. Soft enough for easy boring, but hard enough to be self supporting without lots of reinforcement. That's why they considered tunnels for the I-635 express lanes -- the price of tunnelling was competitive with other options. You've just got to get under the surface soil, which in most of Dallas doesn't take much. At my parents' place in SW Dallas County that took about one inch.

[muncien]

Actually the limestone in this area is one of the best materials for tunnelling. Soft enough for easy boring, but hard enough to be self supporting without lots of reinforcement. That's why they considered tunnels for the I-635 express lanes -- the price of tunnelling was competitive with other options. You've just got to get under the surface soil, which in most of Dallas doesn't take much. At my parents' place in SW Dallas County that took about one inch.

DART has some maps on this related to their D2 options... But anything on the western half of the CBD is covered by layers of river sediment that you have to go down a ways to get to the limestone. This is why the original D2 was cut/cover through there. When everybody wanted a subway, you'll notice that DART introduced the options cutting through the northeast corner of the CBD as the limestone is easier to access there. They can still tunnel on the western side, but they just have to go deeper.

It's not a huge area we are talking about here... Mostly just anything within a few thousand feed of the historical river... Which unfortunately happens to be the left half of our downtown.

[TNWE]

The depths of underground stations are known to impact ridership. This is part of the problem with an underground system in Dallas. Our soils (much of of it historic riverbed) are very poor for boring through and we are forced to go deeper to find more solid rock. While looking at a pretty rail transit map won't show the problem, users most certainly do. At such depths, the number of stations gets reduced, and the time it takes to get to/from those stations increases. But hey... at least we can call ourselves a 'big ol city' now. lol
Much of NYC transit success is based on the fact that you typically only have to go down one or two flights of stairs. The new second ave line is the exception as it is going much deeper... and commuters are fired up about it.

Add in DART's pathological need to over-engineer everything, and each downtown station would require approx. 6 elevators or inclinators, 6 escalators, and 6 sets of stairs, because DART would inexplicably build them all with side platforms

NYC/Chicago have a huge built-in advantage in that the bulk of their system was built pre-ADA, while any new projects are required to be fully compliant. This isn't to make light of the value of ADA, but DART has to build everything to be ADA compliant (even if they were to offer an on-demand, door to door paratransit service at the same fares), while NYC and Chicago can build new lines without first updating the non-compliant stations

[Cmacemm]

Every holiday season, the CTA has a holiday train that runs on different lines up until Christmas that has a Santa car and an elves workshop car. It would be cool to see DART do something similar to help boost some holiday season ridership

"Today the cost to the CTA to run the train is minimal. Decorations are reused from year to year or donated by CTA employees. As the trains run regular service, most workers are either on their regular schedules or volunteering their time."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA_Holiday_Train

[dfwcre8tive]

DCTA has already claimed "A Train." I wonder if DART and other regional transit will ever adopt the letter naming convention.

https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/28/181150 ... nt-history