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DART: Expansion

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muncien
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DART: Expansion

Postby muncien » 25 Oct 2016 09:43

I have to admit... this news caught me by surprise. I didn't realize this expansion was all ready to go...

DART Rail Blue Line Extension Reenergizes Dallas’s South Oak Cliff Community

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_release/12272280/dart-rail-blue-line-extension-reenergizes-dallass-south-oak-cliff-community

New opportunities and new destinations arrived on Oct. 24 when Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) Rail’s Blue Line added three miles and opened new stations at Camp Wisdom and UNT Dallas.
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 25 Oct 2016 09:45

Haha, same here. I was like, "What? New stations?"
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby DPatel304 » 25 Oct 2016 11:34

I'll probably never use the new stations, but good news regardless. Weren't they supposed to come to some decision regarding D2 and Cotton Belt today (or sometime this week)?

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 25 Oct 2016 13:38

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby DPatel304 » 25 Oct 2016 21:44

Have there been any updates on this? The meeting should have ended a while ago, correct?

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 26 Oct 2016 01:11

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/10/25 ... -prioriti/

DART approves rail expansions, but debate over priorities isn't over

Transit agency moving ahead with suburban rail line and downtown subway, but not everyone is happy.

The Texas Tribune
BY BRANDON FORMBY OCT. 25, 2016 9:32 PM

Amid warring political pressure from North Texas’ urban and suburban leaders, the Dallas Area Rapid Transit board on Tuesday approved a plan to finance two major rail expansions and an overhaul of bus service.

Suburban officials hailed the plan’s funding for a rail line that connects the state’s busiest airport to several cities as a prime example of what urban areas can achieve when cities act in tandem. But Dallas leaders said the agency is ignoring much-needed improvements to its widely criticized bus system and jeopardizing plans for a downtown subway.

Their divergent views largely stem from a disagreement over what philosophy DART should adopt: build as many miles of rail as possible in one of the country’s most sprawling regions or make the existing train and bus network more efficient, frequent and user friendly.

DART’s new long-term plan calls for borrowing about $1 billion to build the Cotton Belt suburban rail line and depends on federal officials giving the agency $650 million for a downtown subway that could cost up to $1.3 billion. The board voted 12-3 to approve the plan. Dallas appointees Sue Bauman, Amanda Moreno Cross and Michele Wong Krause cast the dissenting votes.

...

“It’s especially disappointing that the city of Dallas can’t muster all the votes of its own board members,” said Philip Kingston, a council member from that city. “I don’t anticipate that this is the last we’ve heard on that issue or the issue of the priority of DART projects.”
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby DPatel304 » 26 Oct 2016 08:40

Thanks for the update. It's so frustrating how long and drawn out these projects become. I get that we want to do this thing right, but, at some point, you spend more time debating about the project than you actually do building it.

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 26 Oct 2016 14:42

DART made the right decision not nixing the Cotton Belt. I don't care how overly dramatic Kingston gets, drama doesn't trump logic. Less than 2 years ago, Dallas was great with the Young alignment, and then it became the Jackson aligment, and then it became the full subway alignment. The fact that Dallas wants to spend everyone's money like a drunken idiot isn't the fault of Addison, Carrollton, Richardson, and North Dallas. Addison in particular has been waiting for 30 years for rail, and were threatening to pull out, for good reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for D2. If DART can pull of a full subway and DO a single tracked (mostly) Stadler Cotton Belt, then let's do it. If DART can only pull off the Cotton Belt and the Young alignment, with 1/2 of a subway, then let's do it. Holding out everything for a full subway is idiotic. You don't need a full subway. We have a 100% above ground main line through DTD right now, and while it is not perfect, it functions perfectly virtually every day. Plenty of development is occurring on both sides of the tracks, people cross it all the time to get to homes, restaurants, work. Nobody is thinking "Gosh if it weren't for this above ground DART line, DTD would be Paris West."

So build D2, and build the Cotton Belt. Yay DART actually made a good decision and didn't cower to Kingston and his cronies.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 26 Oct 2016 14:56

Also, I keep saying this, but the Downtown Carrollton Station is going to be a big deal once Frisco wants in on the train action. Doing this now will help all of that along.
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 27 Oct 2016 10:29

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_rel ... od-money''

$1.4M Federal Grant to Boost North Texas Transit-Oriented Development Planning
SOURCE: DALLAS AREA RAPID TRANSIT (DART) OCT 25, 2016


...

The grant will focus on "last mile" accessibility to transit and parking needs around the stations. For example, filling in missing sidewalks and making pedestrian crossings safer can make it easier for pedestrians to access rail stations. The outcome should be a better understanding of the bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure needs at each station and a plan to address them.

The second element of the plan is a study at select TODs to help planners understand how parking is utilized. The results can inform local policies on parking provisions and allow better management of the parking supply in support of transit-oriented land uses. Additionally, stations may have opened with abundant parking, some of which could be redeveloped to offer TOD.

A third component of the plan is a survey, which will be sent to residents and employers and seeks information on transit use in the study area, as well as residents' transportation preferences.
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby theoryNine » 01 Nov 2016 14:29

Alex Rodriguez wrote:DART made the right decision not nixing the Cotton Belt. I don't care how overly dramatic Kingston gets, drama doesn't trump logic. Less than 2 years ago, Dallas was great with the Young alignment, and then it became the Jackson aligment, and then it became the full subway alignment. The fact that Dallas wants to spend everyone's money like a drunken idiot isn't the fault of Addison, Carrollton, Richardson, and North Dallas. Addison in particular has been waiting for 30 years for rail, and were threatening to pull out, for good reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for D2. If DART can pull of a full subway and DO a single tracked (mostly) Stadler Cotton Belt, then let's do it. If DART can only pull off the Cotton Belt and the Young alignment, with 1/2 of a subway, then let's do it. Holding out everything for a full subway is idiotic. You don't need a full subway. We have a 100% above ground main line through DTD right now, and while it is not perfect, it functions perfectly virtually every day. Plenty of development is occurring on both sides of the tracks, people cross it all the time to get to homes, restaurants, work. Nobody is thinking "Gosh if it weren't for this above ground DART line, DTD would be Paris West."

So build D2, and build the Cotton Belt. Yay DART actually made a good decision and didn't cower to Kingston and his cronies.


D2 as a subway is necessary for the future growth of this city, not just for right now. Yeah, it has been fine having at-grade rail in a city where noone was living downtown and it was was abandoned at night, but as we have more and more people moving in and living here it will continue to become more of a problem. DART building for the right now is partially to blame for why our system is a mess. People or cars getting hit and systemwide delays is not functioning perfectly.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 02 Nov 2016 00:40

Alex Rodriguez wrote:[...] You don't need a full subway. We have a 100% above ground main line through DTD right now, and while it is not perfect, it functions perfectly virtually every day. Plenty of development is occurring on both sides of the tracks, people cross it all the time to get to homes, restaurants, work. Nobody is thinking "Gosh if it weren't for this above ground DART line, DTD would be Paris West."


I'm wondering if you live downtown. Because I do. I live right next to the above-ground DART line, and I walk over it every day on my way to and from work.

It does not function well. The above-ground tracks stop traffic (and must stop for traffic), causing needless delay for both the train and the cars. If underground, the tracks could be converted into a pedestrian mall with shops and restaurants that are actually desirable. People could walk it and feel safe, instead of rushing through to get from the Arts District to Main Street (or vice versa).

The above-ground stations are hubs for drugs and loitering. It's an inconvenience for residents to walk near the stations, unless for necessity. I avoid West End because of the above-ground station over there. The above-ground tracks make the neighborhoods it crosses less inviting.

And this side of downtown isn't the "happening" side. I can't imagine how disruptive an above-ground track would be for D2. It would slow the trajectory of downtown's growth tremendously.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 02 Nov 2016 07:20

I have ridden the Green (and sometimes Orange) Line into Downtown for 6 years. Ive worked downtown since before that. Have spent many a weekend night and full weekend for entertainment, dining, etc.

Ive worked a in couple different buildings downtown and my main stops over the years have been every station except Pearl. The only station with a bad rap is my current one, West End, and that's almost 100% the fault of the fact that the bus network Nexus is right there. The bus network needs a bunch of TLC as well, but that is another subject. Akard and St. Paul are night and day difference than West End.

Again, I'm for D2. It was already going to be a half a subway. My oldest and his wife live in Brookline, MA and virtually all of the Green Lines west of Fenway are at grade. Not one person over there thinks its a problem.

Yet here, over the past two years its slowly gone from D2 along the Young Alignment to "we want a full subway and dont you dare build that straw man rail to nowhere Cotton Belt, or else!!!!" WTH?

First of all, it would be great if DART can build in full subway. But if the $$$ doesnt work, then build it on the Young alignment and be done.

Second, the Cotton Belt is a vital link in the system, its been on the books since the inception of DART, its the ONLY reason Addison is a member, and was a factor in both Plano and Carrollton joining. It is the first cross town connection, it creates major transit hubs in both Carrollton and Plano, and is another link to DFW Airport, not to mention TexRail and DFW.

For Dallas to throw a tantrum at a straw man like the Cotton Belt was idiotic. Fight for full subway, great. Fight for bus system improvements, great. Try to blame it all on the Cotton Belt, dumb.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby tamtagon » 02 Nov 2016 07:56

D2 has been a priority over Cotton Belt since (at least) the Green and Orange line planning got past the halfway point; it was even a thing on the forum for a while about how the downtown choke point would reduce Red/Blue frequency and how-in-the-world would DART get the D2 built right away. As it went, DART had another hard choice: finish last leg of the Orange to DFW airport OR build D2, there was only enough money to do one. Getting to the airport took priority, so that puts D2 in the position today of being next.

Dallas fat-cat slimy SOP affliction has been especially bad for a decade, and scheduling the area passenger train network was hit with a good dose of that, and all of a sudden it became Cotton Belt Versus D2 --- and balancing the books to get'er done was tragically murky and simply withered in the sun. Clearly, the most concentrated part of town, Central Business District, would deserve consideration for the expense of an off-grade passenger train route. If the city was not growing, running the trains on the street would probably be just fine, but the city is growing and the suburbs need the city to grow as much as the city needs it.

The additional construction cost of a D2 subway is more than worth it, imo -- especially when access to the tunnels is installed.

Some of the Cotton Belt stations don't seem right, and I dont remember hearing about positioning that will further extend the commuter train to Frisco, work to get DCTA to the big airport... but I agree this also a critical component to the regional rail network --- but it cannot be inflated such that D2 is not optimally positioned.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby muncien » 02 Nov 2016 08:34

I used to take the red line from Akard to Richardson daily for work. I never had any issue whatsoever with the train. The delays associated with the trains are more impactful to those simply passing thru downtown than the residents themselves. The issues with West End station have little to do with the track location itself (which isn't going away with a D2 subway anyway) and more to do with the surrounding services.
I have no issue with an underground D2 per se (so long as it isn't too deep... that makes issues of it's own), but I do have issues with the costs, and I certainly don't think it's development should impact the Cotton Belt (which finally seems to be addressing it's own cost issues).
There is a benefit to being underground but only up to such a cost point. I'm even okay with it costing up to 80ish percent more... I still think it's worth it. But most of the proponents seem to think it will address things that it won't. Going underground with D2 will do nothing for Deep Ellum... that will still be at grade, and the transition from underground to at grade will be even MORE disruptive to the area than an all at grade route. We'll also likely loose a station or two with the underground route.
Like I mentioned earlier... An underground D2 does more to benefit non downtown residents/workers than it does the locals. It simply allows them to 'pass thru' easier... ahem... I345.
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby tamtagon » 02 Nov 2016 08:40

^Making downtown a more desirable workplace for suburbanites should still a primary goal.... and a subway that connects to the underground tunnel/breakroom of the gigantic legacy towers is an excellent way to spend the extra money. It's okay that many or most of the downtown office commuters are less concerned with what may be available just outside, but the amount of space taken up by those personal vehicles is wasteful -- get on the train!

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 02 Nov 2016 10:23

What is the technical hurdle keeping DCTA from reaching DT Carrollton?
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 02 Nov 2016 12:04

art_suckz wrote:What is the technical hurdle keeping DCTA from reaching DT Carrollton?


None to my knowledge. They've run several test trains down there from Trinity Mills, the tracks are basically ready. I think it is just be a matter of costs for the station, double tracking for a few hundred feet prior to the station, and minor rail line improvements.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 02 Nov 2016 12:41

muncien wrote:[. . .] An underground D2 does more to benefit non downtown residents/workers than it does the locals. It simply allows them to 'pass thru' easier... ahem... I345.


I believe an underground D2 benefits both residents and non-residents of downtown.

An at grade D2, even on Young, will disrupt further development. Every month we see another restaurant or bar opening in downtown, and with the Statler opening next year, that section of downtown is poised to take off. And once Elm, Main, and Commerce are 'built up,' the development will spread South toward Young and East toward the Farmers Market.

D2 at grade would further strangle the development that downtown needs. Underground would be beneficial to non-residents, sure. But underground would encourage downtown to stay on its present trajectory -- further becoming a destination to work, live, and play.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 02 Nov 2016 13:13

dukemeredith wrote:
muncien wrote:[. . .] An underground D2 does more to benefit non downtown residents/workers than it does the locals. It simply allows them to 'pass thru' easier... ahem... I345.


I believe an underground D2 benefits both residents and non-residents of downtown.

An at grade D2, even on Young, will disrupt further development. Every month we see another restaurant or bar opening in downtown, and with the Statler opening next year, that section of downtown is poised to take off. And once Elm, Main, and Commerce are 'built up,' the development will spread South toward Young and East toward the Farmers Market.

D2 at grade would further strangle the development that downtown needs. Underground would be beneficial to non-residents, sure. But underground would encourage downtown to stay on its present trajectory -- further becoming a destination to work, live, and play.


What is the basis for the theory that an at-grade D2 would strangle development? Did the existing at-grade DART line strangle downtown development?

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 02 Nov 2016 16:50

Tucy wrote:
What is the basis for the theory that an at-grade D2 would strangle development? Did the existing at-grade DART line strangle downtown development?



Yes, because I can think of just off the top of my head the following major developments either on the line or within 1 block of the line:

LTV Tower
Mosaic
1401 Elm
HKS Architects building at St Paul stn
Antioch Church
One Main Place
555 Ross
411 N Akard

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 00:34

Do y'all ever walk around the area? It isn't exactly the place to be. Lots of great residential options. But people don't walk around there terribly often, unless they're passing through.

The proposed D2, especially the proposed route near the Statler, would be much closer to proposed retail; not mere residential. Residential is great, and all -- but retail development is what is going to make downtown a destination.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 03 Nov 2016 01:57

I keep hearing one of biggest reasons the Cotton Belt line is so gosh darn important to build is to keep Addison in DART who has been paying into the system since 1983 and because they're the only member city that still doesn't have rail service and that they 'just deserve it already.' Well guess who else has been paying into DART since 1983 and is actually almost twice the land mass of Addison and of similar population size? Glenn Heights. And they ain't getting any rail service ANYTIME soon, if ever. Is Glenn Heights bemoaning and complaining? Threatening to leave? No way. I think they're happy with the single measly commuter-only bus route they get, which is unfortunate. As usual the south of the Metroplex is easily forgotten.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 07:52

dukemeredith wrote:Do y'all ever walk around the area? It isn't exactly the place to be. Lots of great residential options. But people don't walk around there terribly often, unless they're passing through.

The proposed D2, especially the proposed route near the Statler, would be much closer to proposed retail; not mere residential. Residential is great, and all -- but retail development is what is going to make downtown a destination.


How does a light rail train make walking difficult or unpleasant? Blaming the rail line for the lack of people walking around in downtown Dallas is quite a reach.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 07:53

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
Tucy wrote:
What is the basis for the theory that an at-grade D2 would strangle development? Did the existing at-grade DART line strangle downtown development?



Yes, because I can think of just off the top of my head the following major developments either on the line or within 1 block of the line:

LTV Tower
Mosaic
1401 Elm
HKS Architects building at St Paul stn
Antioch Church
One Main Place
555 Ross
411 N Akard


If that's the result of being strangled, I say we tighten the grip. ;-)

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 08:24

Tucy wrote:How does a light rail train make walking difficult or unpleasant? Blaming the rail line for the lack of people walking around in downtown Dallas is quite a reach.



This really isn't a hard concept.

Light rail influences the surrounding area. And the current above-ground track isn't exactly a pedestrian-friendly area. The quality of retail currently in place isn't attractive to pedestrians.

The mere existence of the train alone isn't what's deterring people. It's the lack of desireable businesses for people to frequent.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 08:41

dukemeredith wrote:
Tucy wrote:How does a light rail train make walking difficult or unpleasant? Blaming the rail line for the lack of people walking around in downtown Dallas is quite a reach.



This really isn't a hard concept.

Light rail influences the surrounding area. And the current above-ground track isn't exactly a pedestrian-friendly area. The quality of retail currently in place isn't attractive to pedestrians.

The mere existence of the train alone isn't what's deterring people. It's the lack of desireable businesses for people to frequent.


And you're blaming the rail for the lack of retail. That's a huge reach.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 08:46

Tucy wrote:And you're blaming the rail for the lack of retail. That's a huge reach.



Agree to disagree.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby The_Overdog » 03 Nov 2016 09:02

D2 above ground was a bad idea because every route considered either bulldozed existing property or seriously constrained property currently under construction or being redeveloped. Bulldozing existing property for a rail line would constrain downtown development.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 09:06

dukemeredith wrote:
Tucy wrote:And you're blaming the rail for the lack of retail. That's a huge reach.



Agree to disagree.


Disagree about what, exactly?

Still waiting to see your basis for your theory that surface rail strangles development. If anything, The evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 03 Nov 2016 09:42

I don't think it is the rail alone... it is the placement of the rail along a street between two sidewalks that are very close to the trains.

Downtown, the block where there is a station is fine... but once the DART train leaves the station the sides of the road are pretty much empty of business on either side isn't it?
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 10:17

art_suckz wrote:I don't think it is the rail alone... it is the placement of the rail along a street between two sidewalks that are very close to the trains.

Downtown, the block where there is a station is fine... but once the DART train leaves the station the sides of the road are pretty much empty of business on either side isn't it?


But isn't it a little difficult to make the case that the emptiness is the fault of the rail line or its placement? Wasn't it pretty much empty long before the rail? Aren't there plenty of other blocks downtown that are pretty much empty of street-level business?

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 10:23

The_Overdog wrote:D2 above ground was a bad idea because every route considered either bulldozed existing property or seriously constrained property currently under construction or being redeveloped. Bulldozing existing property for a rail line would constrain downtown development.


Interesting point. But not as black and white as you make it out to be. I would think it would depend on what buildings are proposed to be bulldozed. The one I can recall off the top of my head was a First Baptist parking garage. Surely it cannot be the pro-subway camp's argument that demolishing a parking garage will strangle downtown development. ;-)

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 10:43

I'm enjoying you fleshing out your point, Tucy -- I'm not so hard-headed to believe only what I think is "right" or "correct," but I was getting frustrated by your lack of thoughtful reply, outside of your repeated "that's a reach" line.

Living directly on the DART line, I see the contrast between the Main Street District and the Bryan Street/Pacific Avenue stretch of track. A lot of the above development that you cited fronts Elm Street, which is very clearly part of the Main Street District; spilling over from what is happening on Main Street itself. But on Bryan/Pacific, I see the same thing art_suckz does once the train leaves -- there's nothing to attract people other than the train.

It's a fair point you brought up that, "sure, there's not much there with the train, but it's more than was there before the train!" And I agree with that. There has been progress, outside of Subway and 7 Eleven -- Serj Books, Hospitality Sweet, Café Momentum, Zenna, etc.

I would push back, though, on your point that there are plenty of other empty streets in downtown. That's true, no doubt. But consider where the current train is: in between Main Street District and the Arts District. It seems only natural that those two districts should eventually be connected with future development.

But that's not the direction of development, presently -- it's mostly heading south of the Main Street District: The Statler, Butler Brothers, SoYo, Farmers Market.

Perhaps eventually, the interconnectedness would stretch from Uptown, over KWP, into the Arts District, and further into Main Street. But there seems to be little focus in connecting the Arts District and Main Street District. And, to my eye, the barrier is the train that slices through the two.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 11:05

dukemeredith wrote:Living directly on the DART line, I see the contrast between the Main Street District and the Bryan Street/Pacific Avenue stretch of track. A lot of the above development that you cited fronts Elm Street, which is very clearly part of the Main Street District; spilling over from what is happening on Main Street itself. But on Bryan/Pacific, I see the same thing art_suckz does once the train leaves -- there's nothing to attract people other than the train.

It's a fair point you brought up that, "sure, there's not much there with the train, but it's more than was there before the train!" And I agree with that. There has been progress, outside of Subway and 7 Eleven -- Serj Books, Hospitality Sweet, Café Momentum, Zenna, etc.

I would push back, though, on your point that there are plenty of other empty streets in downtown. That's true, no doubt. But consider where the current train is: in between Main Street District and the Arts District. It seems only natural that those two districts should eventually be connected with future development.

But that's not the direction of development, presently -- it's mostly heading south of the Main Street District: The Statler, Butler Brothers, SoYo, Farmers Market.

Perhaps eventually, the interconnectedness would stretch from Uptown, over KWP, into the Arts District, and further into Main Street. But there seems to be little focus in connecting the Arts District and Main Street District. And, to my eye, the barrier is the train that slices through the two.


I'm still trying to understand why you think people are afraid to walk near a light rail line. People do it in urban areas all over the world with very little trouble.

And aren't you forgetting about one of the biggest redevelopment projects in Dallas' history, The Drever, right there on the rail line?

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 11:08

I thought we were making progress...

That's the last time I spend 10 minutes to craft a reply.


Edit: nice edit to include the Drever. I love that project, and I haven't forgotten. I see it out my office window every day.

Hopefully that will be a big spark and prove me wrong.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby The_Overdog » 03 Nov 2016 11:17

Surely it cannot be the pro-subway camp's argument that demolishing a parking garage will strangle downtown development.


Why not? I think using the power of eminent domain to destroy recent private investment is problematic, even if the current use is against what I personally feel would be the best use. I mean, they bulldoze downtown for rail and then who is stopping the 22 lane highway expansion down I30?

It's not that complex. Don't bulldoze any property for mobility.

Not just a parking garage - also some recently built condos -but don't bulldoze any of it.

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Tucy
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 11:23

dukemeredith wrote:I thought we were making progress...

That's the last time I spend 10 minutes to craft a reply.


Edit: nice edit to include the Drever. I love that project, and I haven't forgotten. I see it out my office window every day.

Hopefully that will be a big spark and prove me wrong.


Not sure what your problem is. If you sincerely believe surface rail strangles development, you surely must have some sort theory about why people are afraid to be near a rail line.

If you work across the street from the Drever, then you must also be aware of the other redevelopment that has also occurred along the rail line. You've already been proved wrong, you just don't seem to want to see it.

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dukemeredith
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby dukemeredith » 03 Nov 2016 11:26

Tucy wrote:Not sure what your problem is. If you sincerely believe surface rail strangles development, you surely must have some sort theory about why people are afraid to be near a rail line.

If you work across the street from the Drever, then you must also be aware of the other redevelopment that has also occurred along the rail line. You've already been proved wrong, you just don't seem to want to see it.



I have no problem at all! But I'll gladly end this string, as it isn't productive or beneficial to the forum.

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Tucy
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 11:35

dukemeredith wrote:
Tucy wrote:Not sure what your problem is. If you sincerely believe surface rail strangles development, you surely must have some sort theory about why people are afraid to be near a rail line.

If you work across the street from the Drever, then you must also be aware of the other redevelopment that has also occurred along the rail line. You've already been proved wrong, you just don't seem to want to see it.



I have no problem at all! But I'll gladly end this string, as it isn't productive or beneficial to the forum.


You're right. It's not productive or beneficial to make claims for which you have no (or refuse to supply) supporting evidence.

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Tucy
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Tucy » 03 Nov 2016 11:45

Crowne Plaza
Renaissance Tower
The Mosaic
Holocaust Museum
The Drever
One Dallas Center
Marquis West End
Sheraton Hotel
City Center
Homewood Suites
Republic Tower
Plaza of the Americas

This is an incomplete list of development/redevelopment projects either completed since the surface rail line began operating or currently under development. All are right there on the light rail line. Rather than strangling development and keeping it from that part of town, a stronger case can perhaps be made that redevelopment started along the rail line and has spread out from there.

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electricron
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby electricron » 04 Nov 2016 21:49

I disagree with the idea that D1 has hurt development or redevelopment near it.
So surface rail isn't in my opinion bad for business. I believe this discussion has forgotten why D2 is needed, arguing about the effects of trees but forgetting the forest.

D2 is needed because there is a limit on the number of trains that can be squeezed onto D1.
Because D1 was built on the surface and must allow regular street cross traffic to flow. If D1 was built as a subway 20 years ago, that limit wouldn't have been as low as it is. Because subways don't affect regular street traffic at all, not one tiny little bit. If D1 was built as a subway, we wouldn't need D2 for a long, long time.

Therefore, looking not so far into the future, D2 should be built as a subway through downtown, to maximize the amount of time delaying the need for a future D3 alignment.
We can all live with D1 as it is, after all it was built on what once was a freight railroad corridor. Golly, it appears half of D2 was going to built as a subway anyways (N-S sections).

Building D2 as a subway most of its way through downtown is going to cost more money, possibly twice as much. DART is going to need to find funding partners, most likely the FTA, to build it entirely underground. It might have been able to swing it mostly by itself with a half underground, half on the surface with just a little bit of financial help. Under that scenario, delaying the Cotton Belt made sense because DART was funding most of D2 itself. But now that they are going to need FTA funds to build a mostly subway D2, it wouldn't be fair to ask Addison to wait - not just 10-15 more years, but 25-30 more years for the Cotton Belt to be built.
Dallas can't demand DART to spend twice as much money for D2 at the expense of the Cotton Belt. Every extra dollar put into D2 is one less dollar for the Cotton Belt. That would mean further delays for the Cotton Belt.

There has to be consequences for actions. It's Dallas that wants D2 to be a subway most of the way, not the DART planners. That demand means finding more money. I don't see Dallas stepping in to help fund a larger, more expensive D2.

Meanwhile, the Cotton Belt plans have been reduced while D2 plans have enlarged. DART can go ahead with the smaller Cotton Belt, while saving up and finding more money for D2. just the fact alone D2 costs will double was going to cause delays in building it anyways.

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The_Overdog
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby The_Overdog » 21 Nov 2016 16:08

Grapevine is apparently banking on the Cottonbelt line being built and has some plans to create a northern DFW airport gateway station/housing/whatever around 114/121 and Texan Trail. They are not currently a member of DART.

Greatwolf Lodge is slightly to the northwest of this site if I have my directions correct. Land is currently undeveloped.

Image

Image

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art_suckz
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby art_suckz » 22 Nov 2016 09:33

It's about time Downtown Carrollton digs out their old station plans and updates them around that monstrosity of an intersection that is there now.
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

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rasec33
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby rasec33 » 24 Nov 2016 08:52


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Mballar
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby Mballar » 12 Dec 2016 10:58

Apparently, DART is now proactively promoting the benefits of the D2 subway. I am happy to see the agency's embrace of this alignment.

https://dartdallas.dart.org/2016/12/12/ ... inability/

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The_Overdog
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby The_Overdog » 12 Dec 2016 15:29

Per a chart I've seen the D2 subway timeline is:

options are being discussed in Dec/Jan
a 'screening evaluation' will occur in Jan/Feb
a short list of subway options in Feb/early March
a detailed evaluation March - June
a refined LPA due beginning of June
funding and approvals June - September.

Per the same chart:
Cottonbelt is doing DOT meetings in December and then will define a project schedule and then continue the environmental and engineering effort.

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 12 Dec 2016 17:44

I wonder if they'll revisit the alternatives they've researched that are already mostly underground, mainly B4 under Commerce and C3A under Union and City Hall.

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electricron
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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby electricron » 13 Dec 2016 00:31

jeffbrown2002 wrote:I wonder if they'll revisit the alternatives they've researched that are already mostly underground, mainly B4 under Commerce and C3A under Union and City Hall.

I suppose they will look at several alignments, and estimate the projected costs for each.
Then a final alignment will be chosen with at least a projected price attached. Eventually, they will choose the alignment that gives the most bang for the buck - not necessarily the cheapest to build.

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Re: DART: Expansion

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 13 Dec 2016 16:54

electricron wrote:I suppose they will look at several alignments, and estimate the projected costs for each.
Then a final alignment will be chosen with at least a projected price attached. Eventually, they will choose the alignment that gives the most bang for the buck - not necessarily the cheapest to build.


Exactly my point, those alignments have already been studied and had projected costs assigned to them, it seems to me subway proponents would be most satisfied with B7 while C3A would be a nice compromise.

d2b7mapfeb2009large.gif

c3a.png

Just hope all that research doesn't go to waste.
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