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Silver Line

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Sep 2019 16:04

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Dart is more of bullet point than actually useful. We've got the longest train system in America..that's all I hear.

We can only hope the region densifies to the point where it becomes useful.


Well said, and it's summarizes my feelings on this Silver Line. It's just another bullet point so people in the suburbs can say they can easily get to the airport conveniently using DART. How many of these same people will actually end up using it? Who knows.

I'm hoping once this Silver Line is all said and done, DART can focus on expanding the system in better ways like they are with the D2.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 20 Sep 2019 08:52

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
DART breaks ground on Silver Line along the old Cotton Belt corridor
The plan is to have the Silver Line operating in three years.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dart-brea ... t-corridor

I had no idea we were so close to ground breaking on this project. Truthfully I had kinda shut out most information regarding this as I'm not fully in support of it, and I figured it was still going to be a ways off.


Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


DFW Airport (transfer station) - Cypress Waters - Downtown Carrollton (transfer station) - Addison Circle - UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'. These are significant business, residential, educational, and transfer stops.

The DART service area population tilts heavily to the north and putting a badly needed East/West line in the North area makes perfect sense. The LBJ corridor wouldn't be a bad option either, but frankly, it would serve fewer people and be much more costly to build.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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The_Overdog
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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 20 Sep 2019 10:11

UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'.


These stations were literally nowhere until really recently, as in just empty fields. Except for east Plano but that is still not a residential stop, it's low rise industrial built around truck traffic. There are apartments planned around it, but I think the rail line will complete first.

And really all were already well served by rail lines. 635 may have been more expensive, but it would have been a much better location for an east/west line.

On the other hand, since they were blank, most of them are being developed around walkabilty and connectivity, unlike if they had been built out 10-40 years ago.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 20 Sep 2019 11:27

Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

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f4shionablecha0s
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Re: Silver Line

Postby f4shionablecha0s » 24 Sep 2019 18:30

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 24 Sep 2019 19:00

TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 24 Sep 2019 19:28

f4shionablecha0s wrote:
TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.


SMU?! what a ridiculously uninformed comment. UTD is a public university, SMU is a private university, both serving completely different segments of the population, one just can't go to the other. SMU got lucky there is a train station nearby. SMU was never built out with a train station in mind. UNT Dallas was lucky they were nearby an expansion. Increased public transportation to universities will greatly help not only poor students, but international students who don't have money for cars. Rent prices have skyrocketed on apartments anywhere near the bus routes. You can criticize the Silver line without throwing people under the bus . pun definitely intended.

Secondly. Addison has been waiting on a train for years. If it didnt get one, Addison might have just left DART. And slowly but surely DART would fall apart if members started leaving instead of joining. Then Dart wouldnt have money to build D2 at all. The whole situation is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And thirdly, go to George Bush Turnpike Station. Yes it was a field 10 years ago. Today it is home to State Farm, Raytheon among other things. Poorly designed i would add, but still the envy of many other wannabe TOD dart stations.

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Matt777
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Matt777 » 24 Sep 2019 21:32

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


I never said that UTD was in the middle of nowhere, so again, as usual, please stop putting words in my mouth. That reference is to the "Bridge to Nowhere" boondoggle in Alaska, and has been used ever since to discuss wildly expensive public projects that return little in results.

UTD is not in the middle of nowhere. However, it is in the middle of a very low density area called the North Dallas suburbs. That area of the region is not pedestrian friendly and is populated largely by people who would not even think about using public transportation. I attended and graduated from UTD, and I understand the bus line that takes students to nearby rail stations. I used it. The current setup of continuous bus service back and forth is probably better than the silver line train service which will be wayyyyyyyyy less frequent. If the bus service is full, add more buses easily! Additionally, the Silver Line Station will be ALMOST A MILE from the center of Campus, which will result in a long walk, or a bus to a train, to get to another train..... SMH.

The UTD station is probably the only station on this line that will generate decent passenger traffic and even the rosy estimates by DART (always overstated) were just a small increase in riders.

Not worth $1 billion.

That $1 billion could have been used to build TWENTY MILES of inner city streetcar lines connecting all of the urban areas of Central Dallas to DART stations, creating a transportation network that would be actually useful instead of what we have now which is largely useless to the majority of area residents, especially those in the inner city neighborhoods. That's inexcusable.

I am a huge proponent of public transportation, as my posts in this forum over the years can attest to. That's why I'm AGAINST the Silver Line which WILL be heralded as one of the most expensive pieces of useless crap ever built in Texas. It will be a highly publicized failure, and because of it we will probably have to kiss the hopes of any future smart rail expansion goodbye.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:09

DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 25 Sep 2019 09:39

muncien wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.


Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:55

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690


Perhaps I didn't write my thoughts out properly...

I'm not advocating people own their own autonomous vehicle. That is completely impractical. I suspect the rich may own their own vehicles in the future, but even more likely a white glove, A-Z, black car service will probably be used to keep them seperate from the 'undesirables'. lol

Also... My whole point was that using these on-demand services to facilitate the A to B and Y to Z parts of the trip, while rail pulls the heavy/dense passenger C to X portion, means you end up with far LESS vehicles on the roads... not more. That is why I continue to say that a viable rail system is necessary across the service area.

When the first and/or last leg of your trip is 'on-demand' by rideshare/autonomous vehicle, it's pick-up can be timed perfectly with the train schedule. So, instead of waiting for a bus, then waiting at the train stop after you get off the bus, then waiting at the other end for another bus, everything is timed based on the only fixed element (train schedule). Add the fact that the vehicle can pick you up at your door step, and the massive time savings, you now have a viable transportation alternative for the masses, and not just those who have no other choice.

How much does DART currently spend per passenger trip on a bus? Not just for operations, but including the actual capital expences for the bus fleet itself? Now, take that amount, work a deal with rideshare/autonomous fleet provider, and split the difference. People would be far more likely to spend $10 on their transportation via that route, then $6 for a DART day pass that takes three times longer to get where you want to go. It also becomes a much more viable alternative to personal vehicle ownership at that point.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 30 Sep 2019 02:31

DPatel304 wrote:So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

Isn't that the formula DART started with since the mid 1990s, start in the inner city and build out to the suburbs? The Silver Line has miles of track within the city limits of Dallas. So even it is being served by the Silver Line.

When almost half of DART's sales tax revenues come from the suburbs, do not be surprise that the suburbs actually expect a minimum level of service.

Here's the latest sales tax revenues I can find tonight. Read page 54.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/debtdocu ... Report.pdf
FY2017
Dallas $284,150,000 (50.1%)
Plano 79,462,000 (14.0%)
Irving 63,852,000 (11.3%)
Carrollton 35,454,000 (6.1%)
Richardson 34,800,000 (6.1%)
Garland 27,581,000 (4.9%)
Farmers Branch 13,861,000 (2.4%)
Addison 13,288,000 (2.3%)
Rowlett 6,665,000 (1.2%)
University Park 4,059,000 (0.7%)
Highland Park 3,368,000 (0.6%)
Glenn Heights 516,000 (0.1%)
Cockrell Hill 362,000 (0.1%)
Total $567,418,000 (100%)

Here are some other fun facts great for a discussion.
Red Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 70.2%
Blue Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 4.9 +1.2 = 56.2%
Green Line cities %DART = 50.1 +2.4 +6.1 = 58.6%
Orange Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 11.3 = 61.4%
Silver Line cities %DART = 11.3 + 6.1 + 2.3 + 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 89.9%
D2 Line cities %DART = 50.1%
And some wonder why the Silver Line has such great political support?
Will it ever achieve the same ridership as the D2 Line? Probably not.
But as with most things in this world, money talks.


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