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the Cotton Belt line

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xen0blue
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the Cotton Belt line

Postby xen0blue » 28 Apr 2017 21:01

Just starting the convo...

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northsouth
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby northsouth » 29 Apr 2017 17:07

So I've noticed that since some time in the last few months, most if not all of the official maps only show the south option at US75/PGBT, so I guess they may have decided on that option without much fanfare.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby joshua.dodd » 29 Apr 2017 23:49

Image

Tex Rail is already working on their western portion of the Cotton Belt and trains should be running starting in 2018 from downtown FW to DFW Airport.

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exelone31
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby exelone31 » 30 Apr 2017 11:19

I haven't paid a ton of attention, but has DART brought forth any estimates on what the travel time would be from one end of the line to the other?

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electricron
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 30 Apr 2017 12:01

exelone31 wrote:I haven't paid a ton of attention, but has DART brought forth any estimates on what the travel time would be from one end of the line to the other?

The amount of time it'll take from one end to the other will vary depending upon the number of stations included, and also on the length and number of passing sidings. Since those are still in limbo, it'll be hard to predict with any certainly that time.

But generally, the TRE takes 61 minutes to travel 35 miles, averaging 34.4 mph. Assuming the same average speed, it'll take 45+ minutes to travel the proposed 26 miles on the Cotton Belt (DFW to Shiloh Road).

That's assuming the same average speed as the TRE, but the conditions of the different corridors will be different, and so their average speeds will be different.

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tamtagon
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 21 Jun 2017 09:16

Thank goodness this snap-to! vote failed.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... art-board/

Cotton Belt Debt Issuance Fails to Pass DART Board


BY PETER SIMEK
JUNE 20, 2017
After a long, grueling, frank, and often contentious meeting of the Dallas Area Rapid Transit board this morning, a resolution that would have seen the agency take out $1 billion in low-interest, federally backed loans to pay for the Cotton Belt light rail extension failed to receive the two-thirds majority support necessary for approval.

The vote leaves in doubt the future of the long-awaited light rail line, which would extend east from Plano, through the northern suburbs and parts of Dallas, toward DFW Airport. Cities such as Addison have been pushing for the rail line to be built for decades, but critics argue it would not produce ridership sufficient to justify its costs and would direct resources away from fixing DART’s inefficient transit system.
....


I'm all in favor of this connection, eventually, but "fixing DART'S inefficient transit system" with special attention to underwriting the quality of life in an increasingly densely populated downtown area simply must come first.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 21 Jun 2017 09:33

It amazes me how many people I know that live so close to their jobs (in Dallas) yet still drive to work. They have no choice.

It amazes me how after many years since DART's inception we still do not have High Frequency buses in this town that serve neighborhoods.

DART likes to tout that they have the longest light rail in the country yet they never talk about the enormously long wait times for buses and the absurd wait times for non peak hour trains.

Dallas should join Addison and pull out of DART tbh. It sucks. Start a municipal transit agency from scratch.

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tamtagon
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 21 Jun 2017 10:40

One of the most remarkable behaviors of North Texas institutions is the ease with which leadership can settle into rigidity of method and ignore the obvious. DART... even in the face of unavoidable knowledge and a world-class burn in the Texas Rivalry, rapid transit in Houston underwent systemic modification to improve the whole dealio, and it took a whole year.

DART's response was flaccid, exactly as should be expected, "We need to study this for a decade, then come up with a plan."

The Board is loaded with un-decision makers: do not change anything because I do not want the hassle and They got it right 20 years ago and that's the way it's going to be. Have a nice day and bless your heart.

The Fair Park / State Fair of Texas situation suffers from the EXACT SAME LACK OF LEADERSHIP ABILITY. All these folks are very smart, but not so smart to get stuck, trapped, pigeon-holed, stupid-idiot-stubborn about having the only right way.

The Light Rail system, could deliver twice the trip possible today without the downtown choke.

But even after D2 is up and running, the Cotton Belt trains will still have to wait. The next upgrade to the system MUST be station upgrades allowing express trains -- and this will require a third downtown area route.

Then perhaps it will be time to consider upgrading the Cotton Belt BRT to trains.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby muncien » 21 Jun 2017 10:50

If anything... Hopefully this will force DART to consider a more realistic scope for the Cotton Belt that leverages much of what they already have. I know they have taken some steps toward this recently, there they have much more to go. There is no reason that DCTA and The T can both build similar systems on similar ROW for less than half the cost of what DART projected for the Cotton Belt.
Do that now... and then expand out from there with more elaborate stations, more double tracking, and more grade separations, 30 years from now.

On a side note... yet somewhat related. I'm also surprised that we continue to build stand alone stations at all. While it may be unusual here, it is not unusual overseas to incorporate the station into an actual development. There are several station locations along the Cotton Belt that are prime development sites and could easily have multi-use built over it, thus sharing the cost with developers. Just a thought anyway...
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 21 Jun 2017 12:54

The ridership problem of the Cotton Belt is the lack of a major destination on the eastern end.... DFW to the west is about as big a destination as North Texas has, but downtown Plano? UTD? not really. The cost savings of already owning the right of way is blinding planners of the answer: at the Addison Airport, swing North to Plano Legacy West Legacy & Frisco Billion$ Mile, that's a major destination. Cotton Belt to DT-Plano & Richardson may be feasible one day, but certainly not before PlanoWest-FriscoSouth to Addison to Galleria to Medical City Red/Blue line catches attention.

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muncien
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby muncien » 21 Jun 2017 13:55

There's also that little CityLine development at the Eastern end... :)

I really think commuter rail needs to step up in DFW in a major way. The sprawl just isn't conducive to LRT. I'm not saying that LRT was the wrong way to go in the first place... but I'm just saying that it's pretty much gone the extent it can.

Riding the length of the Orange line (DFW to Plano) is a perfect example. If you board at DFW at 6:53am, you don't actually get to Plano until 8:22am (one-way). Ironically, you could board a plane and arrive in New Orleans in the same amount of time. That just isn't practical.

That said... Perhaps we're just looking at this the wrong way. Maybe it shouldn't be 'DARTs' problem at all, and instead the commuter rail should fall under a larger, regional authority (ahem... NCTCOG), and simply be compatible with DART. Maybe the entire public transportation organization structure needs to be revisited... I don't know.
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The_Overdog
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby The_Overdog » 21 Jun 2017 16:27

If you board at DFW at 6:53am, you don't actually get to Plano until 8:22am (one-way). That just isn't practical.


Practical for whom? I see people taking DART red line to the airport on a regular basis. The airport is a 30 minute drive from that Plano rail stop at 70 mph. That's a lot of distance to cover.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 21 Jun 2017 16:46

LRT has always been a transit method designed for moving workers from long distance into town quickly with long distances between stations. You see this at work every morning and it does do this relatively well. It gets many workers from Plano into Downtown Dallas in the morning and takes them back in the evening. The Orange line is an attempt at using an LRT system as it is to solve a cross-town route that would be better served more directly rather than passing through Downtown and back up again.

Heavy Rail like what New York, Chicago and London use is about shorter distances between stations and a lot of quick on and off rides to various parts of the city including across town.

LRT was chosen in Dallas because DART decided to focus on moving people from the suburbs into Dallas in the mornings and home to the burbs in the evening. It was a pure commute to the burbs plan from the beginning. The same moving people patterns the highway system is modeled after. If you want true inner city transit development you better focus on the transportation system and methods that focus on the movement of people inside the city and that is what DART has done absolutely terrible since day one. It is why the bus plan is so important and so is streetcars. Right now it's easy for me to get to Garland from Downtown Dallas. From Downtown to East Dallas takes a college degree and a day of planning and a fairly extensive study of a crowded bus map depending on if you aren't already a graduate of the system.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tanzoak » 21 Jun 2017 22:00

cowboyeagle05 wrote:From Downtown to East Dallas takes a college degree and a day of planning and a fairly extensive study of a crowded bus map depending on if you aren't already a graduate of the system.


Just FYI there's this nifty "application" in the "application store" of your "smart cellular telephone" called "Google Maps." You type where you want to go and it'll tell you how to get there. No understanding of the bus system needed.

There're also real-time bus tracker apps so you know exactly when the next bus will arrive. Smart phones have made using the bus system much easier.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 22 Jun 2017 00:15

Looks like the Dallas Board Members for DARt killed borrowing money for the Cotton Belt, which needs 2/3rd vote.

I guess that means the Suburb Board Members will retaliate and kill borrowing money for D2, which also needs a 2/3rds vote.

Now DART should have even more money to fix and improve its bus routes - that's assuming all the suburb cities continue to contribute sales taxes to DART.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Jun 2017 09:54

tanzoak wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:From Downtown to East Dallas takes a college degree and a day of planning and a fairly extensive study of a crowded bus map depending on if you aren't already a graduate of the system.


Just FYI there's this nifty "application" in the "application store" of your "smart cellular telephone" called "Google Maps." You type where you want to go and it'll tell you how to get there. No understanding of the bus system needed.

There're also real-time bus tracker apps so you know exactly when the next bus will arrive. Smart phones have made using the bus system much easier.


Google, as well as many other companies, have created smarter software to attempt to solve the problem but that has yet to improve ridership. Other cities where the transit system doesn't work as badly and less confusing have higher ridership because those bus systems are designed more logical and efficiently timed in addition to the marketing and ridership programming. Those systems don't require a third-party aftermarket band aid. The last thing DART needs to be doing is betting its entire success on a Google app to make their product usable and desirable.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tanzoak » 22 Jun 2017 20:35

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Google, as well as many other companies, have created smarter software to attempt to solve the problem but that has yet to improve ridership. Other cities where the transit system doesn't work as badly and less confusing have higher ridership because those bus systems are designed more logical and efficiently timed in addition to the marketing and ridership programming. Those systems don't require a third-party aftermarket band aid. The last thing DART needs to be doing is betting its entire success on a Google app to make their product usable and desirable.


DART bus system for sure is not good.

But living in places with good systems (NYC and SF), I don't know anyone who has memorized it outside of a couple of lines they use frequently. Google Maps is absolutely a thing that people use in places with high-quality transit. In fact, it's even more useful in places like that because it tells me all my options, whereas in Dallas I already know what it's going to tell me: "Don't take the bus."

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby The_Overdog » 26 Jun 2017 17:18

They have made the final decision for the route of the Cotton Belt line in E/W Plano & Richardson. They discovered a cemetery along the existing freight rail line near 10th street in Plano, so as not to disrupt the cemetery, they will run the Cotton Belt line south to CityLine Station in Richardson and rejoin the freight rail line on the south side of the Bush Turnpike.

https://plano.novusagenda.com/agendapub ... tingID=116

This gives Plano only 1 stop on the Cotton Belt, so they probably will push harder for D2 (which involves platform extensions and an eventual extension north to Spring Creek vs the Cotton Belt (Richardson will have like 4 stops).

They say the RedLine track between CityLine and downtown Plano will not need any construction to support the Cotton Belt, but that's not exactly true because a spur to the west doesn't exist today. That will have to be built.

This also means any redevelopment of Collin Creek mall can't be sold as "TOD", so it probably decreases the value of the property somewhat.

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xen0blue
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby xen0blue » 30 Jun 2017 10:56

electricron wrote:Looks like the Dallas Board Members for DARt killed borrowing money for the Cotton Belt, which needs 2/3rd vote.

I guess that means the Suburb Board Members will retaliate and kill borrowing money for D2, which also needs a 2/3rds vote.

Now DART should have even more money to fix and improve its bus routes - that's assuming all the suburb cities continue to contribute sales taxes to DART.


Man, the DART board has really shot itself in the foot on this one. We NEED both the cotton belt and D2, and now we may get neither. Now the suburban DART members might even pull out of the organization completely. Fucking morons.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Cbdallas » 30 Jun 2017 11:05

We may need two systems DART for regional and DUTS (Dallas uban transportion system) for the urban city. Dallas really isn't being correctly served from and urban perspective. Many of us living in the urban core still have to use our vehicles to get around our area which makes no sense. If there was any place in the entire metro where you should be able to live work play without a car it should be urban Dallas.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby muncien » 30 Jun 2017 11:26

Well... you are now likely to trip over a V-bike while walking to the nearest bus/train stop... so, there is that. :)
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 30 Jun 2017 12:34

xen0blue wrote:Man, the DART board has really shot itself in the foot on this one. We NEED both the cotton belt and D2, and now we may get neither. Now the suburban DART members might even pull out of the organization completely. Fucking morons.


Sadly I have to agree with this. Everyone should know by now that DART is great at building and engineering train lines but suck at running a business. Pissing off the suburbs because you think that will make DART focus on improving how they run a business is a stupid pipe dream. Now its a real possibility Addison leaves. You think they joined DART so they can wait 30 years for one train stop and then Dallas screws them over when its finally time to build their one train stop? Nope. Plano hasn't been happy in a long time. You just shafted Richardson out of 3 or 4 more stops. Carrollton loses their transit hub.

Really really dumb shortsighted decision.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 30 Jun 2017 13:51

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
xen0blue wrote:Man, the DART board has really shot itself in the foot on this one. We NEED both the cotton belt and D2, and now we may get neither. Now the suburban DART members might even pull out of the organization completely. Fucking morons.


Sadly I have to agree with this. Everyone should know by now that DART is great at building and engineering train lines but suck at running a business. Pissing off the suburbs because you think that will make DART focus on improving how they run a business is a stupid pipe dream. Now its a real possibility Addison leaves. You think they joined DART so they can wait 30 years for one train stop and then Dallas screws them over when its finally time to build their one train stop? Nope. Plano hasn't been happy in a long time. You just shafted Richardson out of 3 or 4 more stops. Carrollton loses their transit hub.

Really really dumb shortsighted decision.


Agree to disagree then. Adding the Cotton Bolt and D2 simultaneously was a financial risk for DART.

And given DART's abysmal projections for the Cotton Belt it's no surprise it failed to be passed AGAIN! Let's be clear about something, the Cotton Belt was planned to be built by 2040. It's only being pushed because Addison wants it now.

Now, it shouldn't go without saying that Addison in the interim has been getting bus service so it's not like they're getting shafted.

If Addison really wanted the Cotton Belt route now they should've been willing to roll out BRT. Again, DART is about being impractical and fiscally wasteful..so they pick trains.

And Plano and Richardson aren't going anywhere. They're deeply invested in DART and have major projects that were built with the rail stations in mind. They're not going to bounce.


Addison on the other hand contributes the least out of all the cities you mentioned. Honestly if they left DART would continue as is.

And Carrollton's mayor has been calling the Cotton Belt a boondoggle for the longest! Lol Carrollton couldn't care less.

The region would be better off if DART died. It's so horrible, and I say this as a 4 yr annual pass member.

Why do you want to continue to throw money at something that doesn't work??

If you're not going to kill it then fix it.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 30 Jun 2017 14:02

Cbdallas wrote:We may need two systems DART for regional and DUTS (Dallas uban transportion system) for the urban city. Dallas really isn't being correctly served from and urban perspective. Many of us living in the urban core still have to use our vehicles to get around our area which makes no sense. If there was any place in the entire metro where you should be able to live work play without a car it should be urban Dallas.


I've been saying this for the longest. DART serves the Burbs. It's why no one uses it outside of M-F at rush hour.

Dallas Should copy San Francisco. They're part of BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) and they have Muni (Transit for the city).

Dallas needs two agencies. DART doesn't work for anyone. It really doesn't. You can't serve two masters.

Now I have to disagree with your name suggestion ..DUTS... Come on man...That's horrible. It's sounds like a contagious disease.

It should Be Dallas Municipal Transit (DMT).

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tamtagon
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 30 Jun 2017 19:45

One thing about the D2 versus Cotton Belt discussion that's been absent so far, but is very relevant concerns the Orange Line to DFW Airport. Five or so years ago, DART was faced with a very similar dilemma, the agency could only afford to run the Orange Line into the airport OR build the second downtown route.

I'm not sure where the Orange line temporary terminus was, maybe the Beltline, maybe North Lake College, maybe even 'Irving convention center' station, but running into the airport was not funded. There was quite a bit of debate, and the decision was to get into the airport THEN D2 would be next.

Cotton Belt came on stage after all that, and frankly D2 has been on hold since before funding the airport extension was a one or the other but not both at the same time. The entire system benefits from removing the downtown choke point.

Putting D2 before Cotton Belt is not city versus suburban, it's the city route not getting bumped yet again.

I'm all in favor of the Cotton Belt, but the suburban uproar is misplaced, misguided and mistaken.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby xen0blue » 01 Jul 2017 12:33

tamtagon wrote:One thing about the D2 versus Cotton Belt discussion that's been absent so far, but is very relevant concerns the Orange Line to DFW Airport. Five or so years ago, DART was faced with a very similar dilemma, the agency could only afford to run the Orange Line into the airport OR build the second downtown route.

I'm not sure where the Orange line temporary terminus was, maybe the Beltline, maybe North Lake College, maybe even 'Irving convention center' station, but running into the airport was not funded. There was quite a bit of debate, and the decision was to get into the airport THEN D2 would be next.

Cotton Belt came on stage after all that, and frankly D2 has been on hold since before funding the airport extension was a one or the other but not both at the same time. The entire system benefits from removing the downtown choke point.

Putting D2 before Cotton Belt is not city versus suburban, it's the city route not getting bumped yet again.

I'm all in favor of the Cotton Belt, but the suburban uproar is misplaced, misguided and mistaken.


Both proposals, cotton belt and D2, both accomplish the same goals- redundancy in the rail network. That is what we need most. It doesn't matter if it's downtown or in north Dallas as long as we get that redundancy.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 01 Jul 2017 12:46

Cotton Belt will grow into a vital link to DFW Airport from South Collin and North Dallas Counties, but that commuter train will not relieve the downtown light rail choke point.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 01 Jul 2017 15:30

xen0blue wrote:Both proposals, cotton belt and D2, both accomplish the same goals- redundancy in the rail network. That is what we need most. It doesn't matter if it's downtown or in north Dallas as long as we get that redundancy.


What do yu mean? There's nothing redundant about the Cotton Belt. It's an entirely new line.

D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 01 Jul 2017 16:14

I would go so far as to say we already should be plotting the third downtown route....

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 02 Jul 2017 03:27

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.

Spend $1.2 billion to add capacity to a rail system that loses ridership every single year. That's really smart.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 02 Jul 2017 09:53

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.

Spend $1.2 billion to add capacity to a rail system that loses ridership every single year. That's really smart.


As you may be aware, a tectonic shift within the cabal of DART decision makers proclaims for the first time since light rail was just the glimmer of an idea the organization will rally the effort around the user.... :P :P

Downtown is the biggest, original Mixed Use transit oriented development. Before the rest of the satellite TODs hibernating through out the Spoke & Wheel rail system have a chance, the pulse maker has to be strong and turgid.

Cotton Belt will need it's own expansion possibilities mapped out before the trunk line becomes exciting enough to satisfy the next generation of city building. Dangling that loop de loop to Billingsley's North Lake corporate cavalcade is just the first.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 02 Jul 2017 13:32

tamtagon wrote:Before the rest of the satellite TODs hibernating through out the Spoke & Wheel rail system have a chance, the pulse maker has to be strong and turgid.


And (quite literally) dropping a billion-plus dollars into a hole in the ground will do this how?

Even the most optimistic ridership projection for D2 showed a net system-wide ridership increase of a few dozen people a day. And that's with the old route -- the new route probably won't even do that. There's no evidence that DART proximity leads to development. In fact, if you'll look at a map of downtown development over the past decade there's a definite INVERSE relationship. Just like with North Texas as a whole, there's more development the further you get away from DART stations. The "bottleneck" argument is a red-herring. Adding D2 adds theoretical capacity. But there's no plans to actually run more trains -- they don't have the money.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tucy » 02 Jul 2017 14:41

tamtagon wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.

Spend $1.2 billion to add capacity to a rail system that loses ridership every single year. That's really smart.


As you may be aware, a tectonic shift within the cabal of DART decision makers proclaims for the first time since light rail was just the glimmer of an idea the organization will rally the effort around the user.... :P :P

Downtown is the biggest, original Mixed Use transit oriented development. Before the rest of the satellite TODs hibernating through out the Spoke & Wheel rail system have a chance, the pulse maker has to be strong and turgid.

Cotton Belt will need it's own expansion possibilities mapped out before the trunk line becomes exciting enough to satisfy the next generation of city building. Dangling that loop de loop to Billingsley's North Lake corporate cavalcade is just the first.


"turgid"? Do we really need (or want) our downtown to be turgid? ;-)

adjective
1.
swollen; distended; tumid.
2.
inflated, overblown, or pompous; bombastic:

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tamtagon
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 02 Jul 2017 15:05

Tucy wrote:
tamtagon wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:Spend $1.2 billion to add capacity to a rail system that loses ridership every single year. That's really smart.


As you may be aware, a tectonic shift within the cabal of DART decision makers proclaims for the first time since light rail was just the glimmer of an idea the organization will rally the effort around the user.... :P :P

Downtown is the biggest, original Mixed Use transit oriented development. Before the rest of the satellite TODs hibernating through out the Spoke & Wheel rail system have a chance, the pulse maker has to be strong and turgid.

Cotton Belt will need it's own expansion possibilities mapped out before the trunk line becomes exciting enough to satisfy the next generation of city building. Dangling that loop de loop to Billingsley's North Lake corporate cavalcade is just the first.


"turgid"? Do we really need (or want) our downtown to be turgid? ;-)

adjective
1.
swollen; distended; tumid.
2.
inflated, overblown, or pompous; bombastic:


the opposite of flaccid....

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 04 Jul 2017 11:11

Doesn't mixed use transit developments include lots of residential units? Downtown Dallas isn't the first mixed use development in Dallas because most of the residential units in downtown Dallas were once business office buildings. Downtowns are often called central business districts, and that is/was the better term to use to define downtown Dallas. Never-the-less, downtown Dallas is the primary, main, number one destination of transit riders in Dallas - which it always has been.

But downtown Dallas has little to do with the Cotton Belt corridor project, being more than 10 miles away from their closest proximity. The reason it's in this discussion is because there are two different projects being advanced by DART, and differences upon which project should advance first. But I would like to point out that the last largest, and amongst the riches, neighborhood of the City of Dallas not to be served by DART with trains has the Cotton Belt corridor running through the middle of it. It would serve more than just suburban cities. It's main disadvantage is that this corridor doesn't go directly to downtown Dallas. FYI, neither does the largest freeway in Dallas = LBJ. I do not accept the arguments that it will not attract enough riders.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 04 Jul 2017 12:03

electricron wrote: But I would like to point out that the last largest, and amongst the riches, neighborhood of the City of Dallas not to be served by DART with trains has the Cotton Belt corridor running through the middle of it..


Word.

Doesn't this neighborhood is also have a strong anti-train component? Too noisy, attracts unsavory characters etc? Not so unlike Knox-Henderson sentiment during red/blue line construction.

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Cbdallas
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Cbdallas » 05 Jul 2017 16:25

Imagine how cool if that Knox-Henderson station was open. I don't get the Cotton Belt line most of those people that live in that area would take Uber to the airport and even more so in the future. DART needs to serve the urban going forward that is where it will find riders.

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muncien
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby muncien » 26 Sep 2017 14:33

I noticed that there is a lot more detail out on the DART site involving the Cotton Belt line, much of it posted in the last few weeks. Looks like it's moving right along with 10% design and full Environment Impact Report to be completed by next spring. Design/Construction then continues after that with operations beginning in 2022. Link is below...
https://www.dart.org/about/expansion/cottonbelt.asp
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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electricron
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 26 Sep 2017 18:22

Cbdallas wrote:Imagine how cool if that Knox-Henderson station was open. I don't get the Cotton Belt line most of those people that live in that area would take Uber to the airport and even more so in the future. DART needs to serve the urban going forward that is where it will find riders.

Knox-Henderson wasn’t finished (built) because the neighborhood didn’t want that station built when construction of the subway was underway.
Lake Highlands Station was also skipped over for the same reasons. And yes, just like Lake Highlands, DART can go back in and build the station later - later.
I would like to point out that the subway under North Central was built with federal funds while the light rail line through Lake Highlands wasn’t. There might be a time period where DART can’t make major changes to the subway because of the federal funding grant. Might means maybe, because I’m not sure. Just I wouldn’t be surprised if there were strings tied to that funding.

Even in far North Dallas today, DART is getting environmental clearances for more Cotton Belt stations than they will ever build, and there are many who oppose one, two, or all three of the stations located in North Dallas. So like Knox-Henderson, one of them will probably not be built. And I can see many 10-15 years from now advocating for it to be built. Come on guys and gals, there are consequences of political actions that last for a much longer time than what many wish.

How would you feel if you or your group successfully fought a station location with political action to find DART building it 10-15-20 years later?

As for the Cotton Belt rail line, it loosely parallels one of the largest and busiest freeways in the entire country. Please do not suggest there will not be any riders on it. One of the busiest bus routes in Dallas runs north-south through University Park and Highland Park. It seems the household staff commute to work on the buses because the employers don’t wish to have their employees parking their cars in front of their house or in their driveways. Just because the neighborhood has the very rich living there doesn’t mean the poor don’t go there.

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xen0blue
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby xen0blue » 07 Oct 2017 12:06

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
xen0blue wrote:Both proposals, cotton belt and D2, both accomplish the same goals- redundancy in the rail network. That is what we need most. It doesn't matter if it's downtown or in north Dallas as long as we get that redundancy.


What do yu mean? There's nothing redundant about the Cotton Belt. It's an entirely new line.

D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.


You're wrong. Right now, if that downtown line going down Pacific is cut, the whole DART train system comes to a halt. By adding REDUNDANCY (ie- cottonbelt or D2), you allow the system to continue operation. Yeah, they'll have to go all the way up to north dallas to get the cotton line to get from, say, Vernon station to Mockingbird station, but at least they will be going somewhere at all.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 07 Oct 2017 12:41

The DMUs DART proposes on using on the Cotton Belt will not require electric catenaries over the tracks, and will therefore be unusable for DART light rail trains to run on. Although the track gauge will be the same, DART’s light rail vehicles will require another diesel, or other fuel, powered locomotives to push or pull them on the Cotton Belt. So the Cotton Belt will offer little more redundancy than TRE and DCTA trains do today!.
The ease of the redundancy of the D2 subway will depend upon whether DART nstalls wyes on both ends of it.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 07 Oct 2017 20:38

xen0blue wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
xen0blue wrote:Both proposals, cotton belt and D2, both accomplish the same goals- redundancy in the rail network. That is what we need most. It doesn't matter if it's downtown or in north Dallas as long as we get that redundancy.


What do yu mean? There's nothing redundant about the Cotton Belt. It's an entirely new line.

D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.


You're wrong. Right now, if that downtown line going down Pacific is cut, the whole DART train system comes to a halt. By adding REDUNDANCY (ie- cottonbelt or D2), you allow the system to continue operation. Yeah, they'll have to go all the way up to north dallas to get the cotton line to get from, say, Vernon station to Mockingbird station, but at least they will be going somewhere at all.


You're misinformed. The current DART Trains will not be comparable/compatible with the Cotton Belt. The trains on the Cotton Belt will be diesel powered locomotives.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby xen0blue » 08 Oct 2017 05:10

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
xen0blue wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
What do yu mean? There's nothing redundant about the Cotton Belt. It's an entirely new line.

D2 adds capacity, frequency of trains to all lines.. That's the type of redundancy DART needs.


You're wrong. Right now, if that downtown line going down Pacific is cut, the whole DART train system comes to a halt. By adding REDUNDANCY (ie- cottonbelt or D2), you allow the system to continue operation. Yeah, they'll have to go all the way up to north dallas to get the cotton line to get from, say, Vernon station to Mockingbird station, but at least they will be going somewhere at all.


You're misinformed. The current DART Trains will not be comparable/compatible with the Cotton Belt. The trains on the Cotton Belt will be diesel powered locomotives.


What kind of trains run on the track is irreverent. The point is if the pacific 'main artery' is cut, the only way to, say, the NW leg of the orange line to the NE leg of the red line is through the cotton belt or D2. The whole system doesn't stop. People won't have to get on a bus to circumvent the line cut. They can stay on the train system.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 Oct 2017 10:28

xen0blue wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
xen0blue wrote:
You're wrong. Right now, if that downtown line going down Pacific is cut, the whole DART train system comes to a halt. By adding REDUNDANCY (ie- cottonbelt or D2), you allow the system to continue operation. Yeah, they'll have to go all the way up to north dallas to get the cotton line to get from, say, Vernon station to Mockingbird station, but at least they will be going somewhere at all.


You're misinformed. The current DART Trains will not be comparable/compatible with the Cotton Belt. The trains on the Cotton Belt will be diesel powered locomotives.


What kind of trains run on the track is irreverent. The point is if the pacific 'main artery' is cut, the only way to, say, the NW leg of the orange line to the NE leg of the red line is through the cotton belt or D2. The whole system doesn't stop. People won't have to get on a bus to circumvent the line cut. They can stay on the train system.


And how exactly would people coming from UNT Dallas or Buckner or Downtown Carrolton , rowlett get to their destinations if they can't move? What if the a commuter needs to get from Ledbetter to Rowlett?.. the Cotton belt is irrelevant.

If the current Dart system gets clogged then trains won't even be able to pass through the main transit mall to get to Richardson where the Cotton Belt would start. The only way possible is if D2 is built to allow a way to circumvent the clogged artery. That's why it's more important than the Cotton Belt. It actually helps the entire system. The Cotton belt is simply an extension commuter rail to DFW. There's nothing it does to allow continual movement if trains are halted. Currently, if trains get stuck ALL trains stop , wherever they are, an automated message goes off declaring delays and the crowd groans...trains do not move to avoid more congestion until the stuck train is back fully functional. The Cotton belt would not change that.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 08 Oct 2017 10:52

If the Pacific artery is cut, light rail trains can get from the Red&Blue lines to the Green Line via the maintenance shops near Fair Park - just like they do for UT-Ou games. It wouldn’t make a great substitute, but some trains could still get through.
DART will be able to reconfigure the lines somewhat with a prolong lack of the Pacific-Bryan streetmall. They “could” run trains from both Plano and Rowlett to Buckner, and run two train lines from either DFW or Carrollton to Illinois or UNT. They would only have to provide a bus bridge through downtown Dallas itself. “Could” doesn’t mean “would”

If DART can qualify both D2 and the Cotton Belt lines for federal funding, they can afford to do both lines simultaneously. If they can’t, then they can only afford to build them one after the other. Tossing in the towel prematurely at this point in time and giving up building both simultaneously only self proclaims one outcome.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 10 Oct 2017 12:28

Electricron lays it out from a technical standpoint, and I agree they both need to be done. The political component in the Cotton Belt is there is a way better than zero chance that Addison bails from DART if it gets the shaft on the Cotton Belt. It's been promised one measly rail stop for 30 years and it simply hasn't happened for them. If they continue to get pushed to the side, I would say its 40/60 or maybe even better that they are gone from DART. That would be catastrophic. Why? Because Plano isn't exactly DARTs biggest fan these days, they have threatened to leave before, and if they get the shaft on at least 2 new rail stops in Plano due to delays to Cotton Belt, they might just follow Addison out the door. You remove one link from the chain and it could all come tumbling down.

DART knows this and that is why they keep pushing hard to get it done. And there are technical/economic benefits of Cotton Belt to the system as a whole, with a Cross Town connection from Plano to DFW Airport, a transit hub at the Downtown Carrollton station.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby The_Overdog » 10 Oct 2017 17:28

Why? Because Plano isn't exactly DARTs biggest fan these days, they have threatened to leave before, and if they get the shaft on at least 2 new rail stops in Plano due to delays to Cotton Belt, they might just follow Addison out the door.


Addison has barely paid anything for DART and they've gotten bus service. Plano gets next to nothing out of the Cotton Belt - they get 2 stations that are in close proximity to their other existing stations, which does nothing for the rest of the entire city. The only thing they really get out of it is a future connection to the Legacy West CBD, but the expense of the Cotton Belt makes that line unaffordable until 2035.

The current alignment of the Cotton Belt even shafts Plano - as it passes mostly through Richardson. If Plano leaves over the Cotton Belt, they dumb.

Also Irving has paid nearly as much as Plano into DART, and they are the #2 big dog, not Plano or Addison.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby electricron » 10 Oct 2017 18:57

The_Overdog wrote:Addison has barely paid anything for DART......

The current alignment of the Cotton Belt even shafts Plano - as it passes mostly through Richardson

Also Irving has paid nearly as much as Plano into DART, and they are the #2 big dog, not Plano or Addison.

Addison has been a member city since DART’s inception, paying the same one cent sales tax rate as everybody else. While I’ll admit they haven’t paid as much in total taxes, they have been paying at the same rate.

The CottonnBelt alignment skips western Plano, but not eastern Plano. I strongly believe the Cotton Belt Line should be extended all the way to Wylie approaching northern Garland eventually. The best chance to get Frisco, McAllen, McKinney, Parker, and Wylie into joining DART and collecting their sales tax revenues is to show some interest in a corridor that doesn’t go to downtown Dallas, even though the Cotton Belt goes through northern Dallas as well. To actually grow revenues DART needs to build rail lines and provide bus services closer to more cities.

I’m not sure it is possible to determine how much money every member city has raised for DART over the years, but here’s the latest I can find....
Data found at https://empowertexans.com/features/citi ... xperiment/
2015 data....
Dallas $261.3 million
Plano $73.8 milliom
Irving $60.2 million
Richardson $29.8 million
Carrollton $30.1 million
Garland $23.8 million
Farmers Branch $13.8 million
Addison $12.6 million
Rowlett $5.7 million
University Park $3.8 million
Highland Park $3.3 million
Glenn Heights $0.4 million
Cockrell Hill $0.3 million

Glen Heights and Cockrell Hill are the other two cities without a light rail line close to them. Addison pays 3,150% than them each and every year.
Addison pays 221% than Rowlett, yet it’s Rowlett with a train station.
Plano pays 122% than Irving, yet it’s Irving with a 7 train stations while Plano has just 2 train stations.
So the train stations haven’t been apportioned fairly, nothing new there.

Here’s a question over fairness you might find hard to believe. How fairly are train stations apportioned north of LBJ vs south of LBJ in comparison to the taxes collected?
Taxes collected north of LBJ = Carrollton, Farmers Branch, Addison, Richardson, Plano, Garland, and Rowlett. Subtotal = 189.6 million
We’ll not count Dallas north of LBJ because I haven’t the slightest idea how to divide it, so we’ll place all of Dallas to the south of LBJ sum.
Taxes collected south of LBJ = Dallas, University Park, Highland Park, Irving, Cockrell Hill and Glen Heights. Subtotal = 329.3 million.
The fairness ratio would be 173% south of LBJ more train stations than north of LBJ.
DART has 55 train stations south of LBJ and 14 train stations north of LBJ ( including TRE but not DCTA). That’s 392% more train stations south than north of LBJ. That’s 226% more than where the tax revenues come from.

I used LBJ as the diving line in the scenario of discussion because many will suggest that’s the center of the population of the Dallas metro (excluding Tarrant County).

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Alex Rodriguez
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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 11 Oct 2017 08:43

The_Overdog wrote:Addison has barely paid anything for DART and they've gotten bus service. Plano gets next to nothing out of the Cotton Belt - they get 2 stations that are in close proximity to their other existing stations, which does nothing for the rest of the entire city. The only thing they really get out of it is a future connection to the Legacy West CBD, but the expense of the Cotton Belt makes that line unaffordable until 2035.

The current alignment of the Cotton Belt even shafts Plano - as it passes mostly through Richardson. If Plano leaves over the Cotton Belt, they dumb.

Also Irving has paid nearly as much as Plano into DART, and they are the #2 big dog, not Plano or Addison.


DART can't afford to lose its #2 and #8 cities, period, end of story. Cash, influence, potential for other cities to leave, if Addison were to leave it would rock the foundation of a relatively fragile organization. Plano would be emboldened to do the same. You are correct, Plano does get the shaft right now, and they know it. There isn't a whole lot to lose for the 73 Million they've put in, what 2 stations? Bus service would be relatively easy to replace. They could join DCTA for half the cost, others could do it on a contract basis. If Plano leaves, DART is finished. Phillip Kingston's mighty Dallas cape flapping in the wind isn't big enough to save DART if Plano says C-ya.

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Re: the Cotton Belt line

Postby tamtagon » 11 Oct 2017 10:37

It would be interesting to see what happened to the bus system if member cities left DART. Changes to bus service would certainly seem to shift to better serve high density areas. This discourse highlights the need for a unifying regional mass transit entity.

I keep forgetting that Cotton Belt could still get federal funding. D2 is certainly the priority.


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