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DART D2 Subway

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 07 Nov 2019 13:07

^ The Lizard Lounge owners have already purchased the It'll Do Club for their backup plan.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Nov 2019 13:32

That's a step down in size even though good shows happen at It'll Do all the time. I imagine they are still looking at where their next location will be but they are currently grandfathered in at Lizard's current abode so anything new will require some new service expectations.

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bachmanlad
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 18 Nov 2019 23:24

Nov. 13 D2 meeting recap:

Metro Center Station:
The exits on Elm have been eliminated. The only ones left are the ones at West TC, in Rosa Parks Plaza, and across Griffin from West TC. The headhouses (aboveground structures) are now much bigger as well. I heard someone ask about possible connections to the pedestrian tunnels, and the answer was a pretty firm 'no,' citing security concerns on behalf of the building owners and the difficulty of funneling all the entrances through turnstiles.

Commerce Street Station:
Shifted entirely about a block to the west. The number of exits has also been reduced from the previous four to two: Pegasus Plaza and the SW corner of Commerce and Ervay. The main entrance is now in Pegasus Plaza, taking up a significant portion of it. The exit that was in the currently fenced-off little pocket east of AT&T has been downgraded to a ventilation shaft.

CBD East Station:
There is now (finally) a preliminary design for CBD East Station. Like the new Metro Center design, it will have large headhouses - one on the SE corner of Elm and Pearl and a smaller one on the SE corner of Pearl and Main.

East tunnel opening:
DART is trying to find a developer willing to build something straddling the tunnel opening, "making it a part of the urban fabric/so that you'll never know it's there."

Deep Ellum/Live Oak Station:
Seems pretty certain now. It's being moved from Good Latimer at Swiss to Good Latimer at Live Oak.

Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.

Edit 1: typo. Edit 2: whoops, forgot to link the PowerPoint.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... 3nov19.pdf
Last edited by bachmanlad on 19 Nov 2019 11:32, edited 2 times in total.

DPatel304
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 10:44

Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

bachmanlad wrote:Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.


What a pleasant surprise! Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use. I'm not expecting anything anytime soon, but glad they are considering other options.
Last edited by DPatel304 on 19 Nov 2019 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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THRILLHO
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 19 Nov 2019 11:08

A shame about the Deep Ellum station, but otherwise all very exciting stuff.
Maybe losing the Deep Ellum station would be an incentive for us to get a streetcar line running the length of Main st? Now that I’m thinking about it, I can envision an ART line that connects the Smart/Convention Center/City Hall area to Pegasus Plaza and on to Deep Ellum.

DPatel304 wrote:Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

The presentation slides have a bunch of great visuals:
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/d2/D2PublicMeeting13nov19.pdf

The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.

-----

Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.
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DPatel304
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 16:01

THRILLHO wrote:The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.


Thanks for the link to the presentation! Originally I know they were planning on getting rid of the station completely, so I'm glad that is no longer the case.

Also, you still have the Baylor station which has always been more convenient to Deep Ellum, IMO.

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bachmanlad
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 19 Nov 2019 18:40

DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 19 Nov 2019 20:23

The city needs to put its foot down and say "Hell No" to closing all those streets around the Good Latimer station.

It's bad enough that DART already replaced two grade-separated intersections with traffic signals, blocked off multiple streets including Swiss Avenue and Race Street, regularly block access to a fire station and a level one trauma center for minutes at a time and turned eastbound Main Street into a joke. And now they want to double down on it with all these other street closures?

Dumb asses.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 20 Nov 2019 09:44

bachmanlad wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.


^^^
Couldn't have said it better. Typical DART fashion to overbuild EVERYTHING for the sake of form over function. My rants against D2 over the years don't need to be regurgitated. The one small opportunity to make something of it was by peppering small entrances throughout the city core to at least give the impression that more people could be served. And now we see that even that has been screwed up. But hey, at least we have a 'subway' like the big city folks. smh
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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THRILLHO
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 20 Nov 2019 17:06

I'm curious to see how the west portal will impact the viability of future development on this parking lot. Doesn't seem very appealing to have a development flanked by a freeway on one side, an exit ramp on another, and this rather lengthy impassable portal on another. I would not be surprised if this ends up being the last undeveloped lot in the loop.
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dzh
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 21 Nov 2019 08:18

I really think D2 is a total mess with this portal system and it's Victory Park route. We need D2 badly, but part of me wonders if it's worth it if it get poorly constructed. This west portal goes right through the recently purchased South Asian Museum land, and then the east portal is a mess when it comes to right aways. They need to figure out a better area to get these tunnel portals built.

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northsouth
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 08 Dec 2019 18:30

Interesting tidbit from the latest DART board presentation on D2. The plan for light rail lines downtown from 1988 had the Red and Blue lines running as a subway underneath State St in Uptown, Pearl St, and Pacific Ave before returning to the surface west of Houston St. Stations were between Routh and Fairmount on State, at Ross and Pearl, at Ervay and Pacific (the station shell dug out as part of the construction of 1700 Pacific), at Griffin as the transfer to the Green line, and Union Station.

It also shows a subway alignment for the Green line, going underground north of Woodall Rodgers, then traveling under Griffin, then Marilla before heading north under Good-Latimer to what was previously planned as the eastern D2 junction north of Elm, after which it would presumably surface near Malcolm X. Stations are south of Woodall Rodgers in the parking lots between the old and new segments of Griffin, the transfer to the Red and Blue Lines (Metro Center under the current plan), at City Hall (also where a space was dug out for a station during construction decades ago), and between Harwood and Pearl by the Farmers Market. This is as far as I know the oldest version of D2 as we know it (there's a map that seems to be associated with the original 1983 proposal with a ton of lines that shows several surface and subway downtown alignments, but I don't consider it similar enough to count). The plan for the second line downtown put on hold until the planning for the Green line around 2003 or so, at which point it was again deferred, next appearing in the 2030 Service Plan of 2006 as an independent project to be built after the Green and Orange lines; the D2 project as it came to be called has been debated and planned and deferred on and off ever since.
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