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DART D2 Subway

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dwdwone
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dwdwone » 08 Sep 2018 12:10

Matt777 wrote:
dwdwone wrote:I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.


I would love to see a subway line in Uptown and Oak Lawn, but I think the cost would be astronomical because it would require more tunneling and likley deeper tunneling. D2 runs through a desolate area of Downtown with lots of surface parking. The subway portions are much easier "cut and cover" type digging. Also, I think there's more empty room for new high density development along D2 than Uptown. I'd prefer using the money for an extensive streetcar network around Downtown and surrounding areas. Bu all in all, I think D2 is not necessary but a nice-to-have. Certainly a better use of funds than the $1 billion Cotton Belt line that will see a few hundred users per day at best...... The Cotton Belt line will be the future "Bridge to Nowhere." When that happens, I hope that ALL responsible lose their jobs.


Are they doing cut and cover on Commerce Street?
I would think that putting in tunnels in an area full of sky scrapers and an existing tunnel network (pedestrian) would require TBMs anyway. Even at a slightly (?) increased distance, tunneling through a dense residential section with smaller office buildings and no existing tunnels would be easier and faster. Plus, they could finish out the Knox Henderson station and make that a touchpoint for the big circle. The spur on to Oak Lawn could be partially elevated and they'd save some money there, though they are better off with tunnels. We don't get much ice and snow but when we do, DART light rail that is above ground often becomes paralyzed. Of course thats a different issue but a subway makes that a bonus.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 11 Sep 2018 10:08

Matt777 wrote: Bu all in all, I think D2 is not necessary but a nice-to-have. Certainly a better use of funds than the $1 billion Cotton Belt line that will see a few hundred users per day at best...... The Cotton Belt line will be the future "Bridge to Nowhere." When that happens, I hope that ALL responsible lose their jobs.


As opposed to a 1.2 billion dollar subway that will generate few, if any net-new riders? And inconvenience a fair few current Green & Orange line riders who live or work in the north end of downtown?

D2 is trying to be too much at once- if the goal is to offer redundancy, it can't be more than a few blocks from the existing line, otherwise you're losing existing ridership by being outside the 5 min walk radius. If the goal is to gain new ridership, it *has* to be far enough away from the existing line that the 5 min walk radius doesn't overlap. Then add in a level of NIMBY-ism from Deep Ellum and Farmers Market residents (that Park Cities types could only aspire to) and you have a convoluted route that results in a station in the middle of parking lots and the all but abandoned East Transfer center.

My pie-in-the-sky dream is that Bezos picks Dallas for Amazon's HQ2, but on the condition that Dallas and DART expel and publically shame the people responsible for the god-awful, split the baby, everything to everyone design for D2.

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Cbdallas
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 11 Sep 2018 16:07

My biggest challenge with the current DART system is that there are not enough urban stations serving Dallas. Every line inside of loop 12 should have more stations especially as you close in towards downtown. We have made it easy to live in the burbs and work downtown but not easy if you actually live in the city.

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ContriveDallasite
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby ContriveDallasite » 11 Sep 2018 16:16

Cbdallas wrote:My biggest challenge with the current DART system is that there are not enough urban stations serving Dallas. Every line inside of loop 12 should have more stations especially as you close in towards downtown. We have made it easy to live in the burbs and work downtown but not easy if you actually live in the city.


My form of an urbanist fantasy wet dream would be a fully underground line from VP following the Katy Trail with stations + Bus/Tram connections at every major intersection in Uptown. Then branching off towards Love Field then submerging and following DNT north towards Legacy.

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northsouth
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 11 Sep 2018 19:23

dwdwone wrote:Are they doing cut and cover on Commerce Street?
I would think that putting in tunnels in an area full of sky scrapers and an existing tunnel network (pedestrian) would require TBMs anyway.


Yes, the section from Metro Center station to the CBD East station will be bored. This includes the stretch under Commerce St and the curves underneath Belo Garden and Main Street Garden, though Commerce St station will likely require an open excavation to some extent.

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Cbdallas
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 22 Oct 2018 13:21

The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl. If we continue to grow as it seems we are we will need this new route to unclog the bottleneck downtown. If we don't then I would say DART is pretty limited in growing beyond where it is today.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 22 Oct 2018 16:33

^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 22 Oct 2018 16:50

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

I would say spending that money on a rail corridor is 1.2 billion times more efficient than spending it on single occupant car lanes.
The Case for Mass Transit.png
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joshua.dodd
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby joshua.dodd » 23 Oct 2018 01:24

Dallas needs to build a real subway system in the city. DART rail simply does not do the job. It's inconvenient and the system was designed to accommodate the suburbs, not the actual city itself. Dallas needs to build a subway system around the core and densest neighborhoods that is entirely separate from the DART system.

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dzh
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 23 Oct 2018 07:34

joshua.dodd wrote:Dallas needs to build a real subway system in the city. DART rail simply does not do the job. It's inconvenient and the system was designed to accommodate the suburbs, not the actual city itself. Dallas needs to build a subway system around the core and densest neighborhoods that is entirely separate from the DART system.


In my opinion, the biggest problem with DART is that you have the layout and design of a commuter rail system...but it's utilizing light rail vehicles...like what the actual Hell???

I think most people on this forum would love it if DART built a separate heavy rail system. That being said, I don't know how this feat could ever be accomplished. Beyond the original 1980s proposal for the system, I don't think building a heavy rail has since been proposed. I'm almost curious to ask if anyone has any ideas on how to make this pipe dream a reality.

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texasstar
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby texasstar » 23 Oct 2018 08:14

^ Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the advantages of heavy rail over light rail?

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 23 Oct 2018 09:25

Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.

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Warrior2015
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Warrior2015 » 23 Oct 2018 10:25

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.

Right. And streetcars just have a cool factor to them so alot of people will ride them just for the hell of it.

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Matt777
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 23 Oct 2018 11:18

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.


Just gonna leave this right here again: :-)
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?us ... NUajKba1Lh

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 23 Oct 2018 11:54

jeffbrown2002 wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

I would say spending that money on a rail corridor is 1.2 billion times more efficient than spending it on single occupant car lanes.
The Case for Mass Transit.png


Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.

The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.

Also, please don't throw around banal transit memes- you may think its a briliant mic drop, but anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that buses have to actually have riders for that math to work out. A 40 foot bus with one or two riders is way worse than a single-occupant car, and that's not even considering the additional route miles from connections or serpintine routings that most bus trips involve.

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 23 Oct 2018 13:11

TNWE wrote:Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.


Ok I really should have cleared this up in my original response but the reason for the 45+ minute delay on Sunday was NOT due to the State Fair as the original post (and so subsequent posts) surmised.
Cbdallas wrote:The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl.
The delay was actually caused by power getting knocked out in the region around Mockingbird Station affecting the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines passing through the area. I know because I was on a Blue Line train heading south that day and got caught up in the mess just as the outage struck, getting delayed at White Rock for several minutes and then again approaching Mockingbird. Not to mention DART tweeted out the reason eventually:
https://twitter.com/DARTAlerts/status/1054070768563355650
DART Twitter.png

It would be quite a feat for delays to extend past half an hour solely due to people with strollers/wheelchairs taking a long time on platforms.

TNWE wrote:The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.


So yes, the D2 alignment does absolutely everything to address THAT issue (the blockages stemming from the power outage) because the Green Line wouldn't have been affected at all, since it and the Orange Line would be on a completely separate route not having to compete for space on the downtown transit mall and therefore navigate with the delays from the Red and Blue Lines getting held up to the north.

TNWE wrote:Also, please don't throw around banal transit memes- you may think its a briliant mic drop, but anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that buses have to actually have riders for that math to work out. A 40 foot bus with one or two riders is way worse than a single-occupant car, and that's not even considering the additional route miles from connections or serpintine routings that most bus trips involve.


Nah I'll go with epic mic drop :lol: Facetiousness aside, that picture is not a 'meme' it's a fact. Of course you'd have to fill the bus for the 'meme' to be true. What is the goal of mass transit? So you're right, that is a perfectly legitimate issue because it is all for naught if people don't use the bus. So that necessitates the question: how do we convince people to abandon their cars and ride public transit? (unless we propose just, I don't know, stacking freeways and roads on top of each other ad infinitum since we've run out of space)
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Cbdallas
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Oct 2018 13:49

I am glad to hear that there was another issue. I was on the Green line train downtown and we had no idea why the delay but it seemed strange that the train would stop and sit in between each station until we past PEARL when we went back to normal speed to Fair Park Station. My point was that as Dallas grows and ridership grows it will become increasingly difficult to funnel all of our trains through one track downtown so if the subway is completed sometime in the next decade then maybe we can get ahead of it.

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 23 Oct 2018 14:06

Cbdallas wrote:I am glad to hear that there was another issue. I was on the Green line train downtown and we had no idea why the delay but it seemed strange that the train would stop and sit in between each station until we past PEARL when we went back to normal speed to Fair Park Station. My point was that as Dallas grows and ridership grows it will become increasingly difficult to funnel all of our trains through one track downtown so if the subway is completed sometime in the next decade then maybe we can get ahead of it.


I completely agree, that's why I and so many others view the construction of D2 as a subway as so necessary.
I will say I was disappointed on Sunday with how little information was given to passengers until DART tweeted the reason sometime later. Even if they don't want to come on over the intercom, the train operators have a pre-recorded message they can activate when they are delayed, something along the lines of "We will be delayed momentarily due to train traffic up ahead, we expect to be underway soon, thank you for your patience." Our operator didn't utilize that message or the intercom causing people (many of whom were just causal State Fair riders not that familiar with DART) to speculate on what was wrong for the longest time. Just a little nitpick I observed that had an easy enough solution.

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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 23 Oct 2018 14:32

jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.


Ok I really should have cleared this up in my original response but the reason for the 45+ minute delay on Sunday was NOT due to the State Fair as the original post (and so subsequent posts) surmised.
Cbdallas wrote:The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl.
The delay was actually caused by power getting knocked out in the region around Mockingbird Station affecting the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines passing through the area. I know because I was on a Blue Line train heading south that day and got caught up in the mess just as the outage struck, getting delayed at White Rock for several minutes and then again approaching Mockingbird. Not to mention DART tweeted out the reason eventually:
https://twitter.com/DARTAlerts/status/1054070768563355650
DART Twitter.png
It would be quite a feat for delays to extend past half an hour solely due to people with strollers/wheelchairs taking a long time on platforms.

TNWE wrote:The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.


So yes, the D2 alignment does absolutely everything to address THAT issue (the blockages stemming from the power outage) because the Green Line wouldn't have been affected at all, since it and the Orange Line would be on a completely separate route not having to compete for space on the downtown transit mall and therefore navigate with the delays from the Red and Blue Lines getting held up to the north.


I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 23 Oct 2018 15:28

Tucy wrote:I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?


Currently all four lines go through the same stretch of track downtown, so it creates a bottleneck. Blue, Red, and Orange Line trains couldn't proceed smoothly up and down through the Cityplace tunnel because of the outage up north, so suddenly you have trains from those lines getting stuck downtown because there's no place for them to go, and that subsequently affects the Green Line just trying to get through downtown even though that line doesn't go anywhere near Mockingbird. Basically it was a domino effect of delays.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 23 Oct 2018 15:33

Tucy wrote:I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?


Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.

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jeffbrown2002
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 23 Oct 2018 16:35

TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


True, it just happens to be one compelling reason to invest in our region's transportation future. As to your other point, that's under one of the proposed possibilities for when the subway opens but if you've looked at DART's potential operating plans for D2 you'll know one of the other proposals is for the Orange Line to continue alongside the Green Line to Lawnview (in anticipation for a rail extension eastward toward Masters Drive) and another possible operating plan is for the Orange Line to terminate at the proposed CBD East station, both of which would've allowed the Green Line to remain unaffected in this scenario.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 23 Oct 2018 16:46

jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Nah I'll go with epic mic drop :lol: Facetiousness aside, that picture is not a 'meme' it's a fact. Of course you'd have to fill the bus for the 'meme' to be true. What is the goal of mass transit? So you're right, that is a perfectly legitimate issue because it is all for naught if people don't use the bus. So that necessitates the question: how do we convince people to abandon their cars and ride public transit? (unless we propose just, I don't know, stacking freeways and roads on top of each other ad infinitum since we've run out of space)


If your statement is only factual under conditions which rarely occur in Dallas, it's not a fact- it's a pipe dream. Sure, if we had the Dallas Sheriff compel all the people in a given neighborhood to rearrange their lives so they all took the bus to work instead of individual cars, our transit system would be a lot more functional. Now let's apply that coercive approach to other issues holding back the urban core of Dallas and make the homelessness, crime, and underperforming schools "go away." How do you feel about that?

This forum is obsessed with designing cities to accommodate single, professional, above-average income individuals, and ignores the reality faced by the 80% of people who:

- Can't afford close-in housing near their jobs
- Are reliant on family or daycare to look after their kids while they work
- Have to consistently show up on-time for their work shifts
- Have jobs with no single or fixed work location

It's extremely arrogant and disdainful to say "Oh, why don't you just take the bus?" to someone whose life is several orders of magnitude harder than that of a senior associate crayon sniffer at an urban design firm or whatever you people do for work. People should be free to go about their lives however they see fit, not sneered at by people who get subway envy every time they talk to their NYC friends.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 23 Oct 2018 17:25

jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


True, it just happens to be one compelling reason to invest in our region's transportation future. As to your other point, that's under one of the proposed possibilities for when the subway opens but if you've looked at DART's potential operating plans for D2 you'll know one of the other proposals is for the Orange Line to continue alongside the Green Line to Lawnview (in anticipation for a rail extension eastward toward Masters Drive) and another possible operating plan is for the Orange Line to terminate at the proposed CBD East station, both of which would've allowed the Green Line to remain unaffected in this scenario.


I have looked at DART's proposed operating plan, and both those options are highly unlikely to ever happen. The North Central section is consistently the busiest part of the system, and removing Orange line trains from that section would reduce frequency and increase crowding on the Red line. If they added additional Red line frequencies to compensate, it puts traffic right back on the surface mall (which obliterates your argument that D2 is desperately needed because the transit mall is congested).

DART won't have the borrowing capacity to self-fund the Masters extension, and I doubt it will have the ridership to merit FTA funds. Most of all, it would primarily benefit Mesquite, which doesn't have any room under the sales tax cap to join DART, so there's no real case to build rail out there.

The CBD east turnback option is feasible, but kinda pointless since the station only serves parking lots and a ghost town of a transfer center. Unless they're planning on building a pocket track or terminating platform underground ($$$), turning Orange Line trains could delay Green line trains. Also, I recall much consternation and wailing when DART's original D2 plan called for a tunneled spur of the Orange line to a useful terminus near the Convention center. But the DFW Urbanist logic of "Convention center bad" prevailed, and now we're stuck with a vastly more expensive routing with zero net new riders because a bunch of activists and elected officials had subway envy.


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