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New Oak Cliff Streetcar

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 17 Aug 2017 17:16

Haretip wrote:I am not suggesting that future streetcar plans follow the MATA example, but I guarantee you that farebox recovery rates will not pay for the equipment and staff to operate high-frequency service with modern cars. You have to secure additional funding commitments and I personally do not know where you would get that. Also keep in mind that there are no modern cars being built today that can fit on the northeast of Bowen Street.

I would be curious to see the cost per rider stats for MATA. Perhaps I'll ask the COO next time I see him.


Farebox recovery doesn't pay full operating expenses almost anywhere in the world outside of Asia. In the US, it tops out at 75% for BART (Bay Area). Currently, the MATA's farebox recovery is 0%.

It wouldn't need to be super high-frequency service to be more useful, just enough to reduce headways to like 10 min. It's going to require operating subsidies either way.. wouldn't you rather the subsidy go towards making the system run well instead of going towards making the system run at a bare-bones level?

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Haretip
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Haretip » 06 Sep 2017 16:08

tanzoak wrote:Farebox recovery doesn't pay full operating expenses almost anywhere in the world outside of Asia. In the US, it tops out at 75% for BART (Bay Area). Currently, the MATA's farebox recovery is 0%.

It wouldn't need to be super high-frequency service to be more useful, just enough to reduce headways to like 10 min. It's going to require operating subsidies either way.. wouldn't you rather the subsidy go towards making the system run well instead of going towards making the system run at a bare-bones level?


That is not correct. MATA has a voluntary fare recommendation of $1 per rider. I wouldn't even hazard to guess the revenue generated from that but it is definitely not 0%

Also, ridership for 2016 was 601,835 passenger trips. While MATA does collect passenger counts split between commuter and tourist, I do not have the breakdown.
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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 11 Sep 2017 09:30

Uggggh, they're leaning towards Commerce-Elm. The worst alternative. Do they seriously not have anyone who can explain to them that a split line is *worse* for coverage, not better? So frustrating.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtow ... alignments

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 11 Sep 2017 09:54

For anyone confused why a split line is worse than having one two-way line going in between it, let me explain with this sloppy diagram.

Image

The solid vertical brown line is a two-way transit line, and the solid vertical red lines are a split transit line 1-minute walk on either side of the brown line. We'll assume that people are only willing to walk 5 minutes to-and-from transit. You could change this assumption to however long you think people will walk, and the result is the same.

So, obviously, there is coverage on 5-minute walks on either side of the brown line (the dotted brown lines). With the red line, however, while you might think that there is 5-minute coverage on either side, the problem is that people have to walk back to the *other* side in order to return to their origin, which adds an additional 2-minute walk. The result is that you only get coverage for 3-minute walks on either side of the red line (the dotted red lines). That is only 4 minutes on either side of the brown line, a reduction in coverage despite the appearance of an increase.

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muncien
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby muncien » 11 Sep 2017 10:31

I totally get what you are saying Tanzoak. But, I don't see it as a significant issue. While the technical assessment may say you have less coverage, the psychological impacts of a split system actually makes it seem as if you have more coverage. Portland's core is littered with split lines and it gives the impression that the core is saturated with transit. Robots may have a problem with this approach, but I think emotional human beings will benefit from it. I think it also helps foster a larger, more active walkable area in between each directional line.
What I don't see here is where the line/s go North/South to connect from here...?
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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 11 Sep 2017 10:41

muncien wrote:What I don't see here is where the line/s go North/South to connect from here...?


Image

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 11 Sep 2017 10:46

A positive thing I will say about this alignment is that it provides a no-walk transfer from D2 heading to Uptown, which is definitely valuable. I still prefer the other three alignments, though.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 11 Sep 2017 10:54

Question what's the overall plan for the Trolley network?

What's next after this phase?

We need to incorporate other neighborhoods/destinations to the system.

Honestly, I rather have a robust BRT system that connects neighborhoods together.

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Sep 2017 16:56

The last third phase I saw on a map is Jefferson Blvd - Bishop Arts loop. DART has a bus doing that loop dropping off at the Bishop Arts street car stop already. With those bus ridership numbers, they can decide if small route changes are needed or if it needs to be entirely rethought for a more permanent streetcar expansion.

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northsouth
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby northsouth » 11 Sep 2017 21:06

From what I've read about upcoming service changes, almost nobody has been using that bus loop, so it's being discontinued in March. As it stands, Jefferson just has a fundamentally different set of businesses compared to Davis/7th, being geared primarily towards lower income hispanic people instead of hipsters and such. Until that changes, there's just not enough need for a circulator between the two.

On my fantasy map of new streetcar lines, the line is extended along 7th ave for half a mile or so. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ys4Kh ... sp=sharing

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gshelton91
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby gshelton91 » 12 Sep 2017 12:53

tanzoak wrote:For anyone confused why a split line is worse than having one two-way line going in between it, let me explain with this sloppy diagram.

Image

The solid vertical brown line is a two-way transit line, and the solid vertical red lines are a split transit line 1-minute walk on either side of the brown line. We'll assume that people are only willing to walk 5 minutes to-and-from transit. You could change this assumption to however long you think people will walk, and the result is the same.

So, obviously, there is coverage on 5-minute walks on either side of the brown line (the dotted brown lines). With the red line, however, while you might think that there is 5-minute coverage on either side, the problem is that people have to walk back to the *other* side in order to return to their origin, which adds an additional 2-minute walk. The result is that you only get coverage for 3-minute walks on either side of the red line (the dotted red lines). That is only 4 minutes on either side of the brown line, a reduction in coverage despite the appearance of an increase.



Without trying to go down a rabbit hole here.... it seems to me that the two-way line is only a better deal for me if i must go to the more distant one-way line to get to my destination. And even if I need to go to the more distant one-way line to get to my destination I also have the option of getting on the closest one-way line and ridding it around the circuit.

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 12 Sep 2017 13:18

gshelton91 wrote:Without trying to go down a rabbit hole here.... it seems to me that the two-way line is only a better deal for me if i must go to the more distant one-way line to get to my destination. And even if I need to go to the more distant one-way line to get to my destination I also have the option of getting on the closest one-way line and ridding it around the circuit.


The assumption is that you're using the line for both the outgoing and return trips, which is a pretty safe assumption. So while the one-way line will be closer for one of the legs, it will be farther for the other one, resulting in the same overall walking time as in the two-way line. That is, it would take you 4 minutes on one leg and 6 on the other vs 5 minutes for each.

If the effect of walk time on the likelihood of using transit was linear (i.e. did not vary depending on how far the walk distance was), then it wouldn't make a difference which type you selected. However, each additional minute spent walking has a greater and greater impact on people's willingness to take transit. Essentially, the extra minute spent walking from 5 to 6 is a greater drawback than the minute saved from 5 to 4 is an encouragement. So even though the total walk time is 10 minutes in both of these scenarios, the split line will result in fewer riders.

Transportation planners/engineers apply this finding to the concept of the "coverage" of the route because there's a pretty dramatic dropoff after a certain amount of walking where people will just refuse to do it at all. So we'll say that a line only provides coverage to an area where people must walk no more than X minutes to get to/from the line. The diagram shows how a split line reduces that area, despite appearing to cover a larger geography.

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dallasite1
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby dallasite1 » 26 Nov 2017 01:52

The streetcar is free to ride. My concern is crime and homeless will begin to infect The Bishop Arts District. Friends of mine have complained about large numbers of Homeless people riding the street car to Oak Cliff. Has anyone observed this?
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joshua.dodd
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby joshua.dodd » 27 Nov 2017 01:31

Crime and homeless people are synonymous to Oak Cliff. Let's get real. The concern is about the Bishops Arts District, which is a distinct island from the true horrors that is Oak Cliff.

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tamtagon
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tamtagon » 27 Nov 2017 07:30

A homeless population so large it's bothersome to the general public is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

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xen0blue
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby xen0blue » 27 Nov 2017 13:29

joshua.dodd wrote:Crime and homeless people are synonymous to Oak Cliff. Let's get real. The concern is about the Bishops Arts District, which is a distinct island from the true horrors that is Oak Cliff.


Sadly, this is the truth. That and kessler park are bubbles of vitality surrounded by decay and blight.

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Cbdallas
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Nov 2017 16:23

I have been on the streetcar already several different times inclusing this past Saturday to Bishop Arts from Union Station and I have to say there have been no issues. I am starting to make it my go to to visit Bishop Arts as you avoid parking issues and it is so easy to use. If you want to see a real homeless issue go visit LA San Fran and Portland.

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 28 Nov 2017 11:14

Yeah, when I was in San Fran they literally sat outside of Neiman Marcus doors with a hand out silently and out of the way. And it was a similar experience all around Union Square Park where I was staying for a week. They were everywhere but so were lots of other people so it seemed less intimidating than My previous experience in Dallas.

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 28 Nov 2017 11:57

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Yeah, when I was in San Fran they literally sat outside of Neiman Marcus doors with a hand out silently and out of the way. And it was a similar experience all around Union Square Park where I was staying for a week. They were everywhere but so were lots of other people so it seemed less intimidating than My previous experience in Dallas.


Probably because Union Square is the only place in the city the police will actually crack down on aggressive panhandling. Try taking a stroll through the Tenderloin next time you're here (there're some super cool bars/restaurants!). Panhandling will the least of your concerns lol. People taking a crap on the side of the street, openly shooting up heroin, evenly openly exchanging big baggies of white powder for fat stacks of bills. All of which I've experienced, and this is in addition to being followed and yelled at, especially if you're a woman.

That said, I've never been robbed. Last time I was in Dallas, though, I was waiting at the Commerce/Austin bus stop, and this homeless-looking dude got up in my face in the bus shelter and demanded my wallet. I treated it like he was panhandling and just said "no, I'm sorry" and walked away, but you're right that the lack of other people around does give it a different feeling!

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby DPatel304 » 28 Nov 2017 12:11

tanzoak wrote:but you're right that the lack of other people around does give it a different feeling!


That's the key. If there are thousands of people on the streets, then the homeless won't be as noticeable, and they'll be far less likely to try robbing you as well.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Nov 2017 12:31

tanzoak wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:Yeah, when I was in San Fran they literally sat outside of Neiman Marcus doors with a hand out silently and out of the way. And it was a similar experience all around Union Square Park where I was staying for a week. They were everywhere but so were lots of other people so it seemed less intimidating than My previous experience in Dallas.


Probably because Union Square is the only place in the city the police will actually crack down on aggressive panhandling. Try taking a stroll through the Tenderloin next time you're here (there're some super cool bars/restaurants!). Panhandling will the least of your concerns lol. People taking a crap on the side of the street, openly shooting up heroin, evenly openly exchanging big baggies of white powder for fat stacks of bills. All of which I've experienced, and this is in addition to being followed and yelled at, especially if you're a woman.

That said, I've never been robbed. Last time I was in Dallas, though, I was waiting at the Commerce/Austin bus stop, and this homeless-looking dude got up in my face in the bus shelter and demanded my wallet. I treated it like he was panhandling and just said "no, I'm sorry" and walked away, but you're right that the lack of other people around does give it a different feeling!


I've been to and stayed in the tenderloin hostels several times. It's "scary-ness" is so overrated. The bums there don't do anything. They're just your stereotypical bum, nothing more. It's no different then bums who OD on K2 in the West End here.

I'm sorry, I just can't get scared when you have Bars, hostels, strip clubs and hip restaurants where people are walking about at night.

Hell, I can't think of a "Ghetto" area in SF that isn't actually quite nice.

Go stand on the corner of East grand and Haskell (South Dallas) at night. That's a hell of a lot scarier. It's the desolate areas where the real Shadiness goes down.

That said, the only time I felt scared in a urban setting was in Paris. I went a couple years ago during the EuroCup.
There were terrorist threats the whole time. It was nauseating.

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tamtagon » 28 Nov 2017 12:44

When I'm on this high horse, what's the most shocking is how easily "the homeless problem" is taken into consideration as a quality of life issue similar to those pesky persistent traffic jams, inadequate sidewalks, potholes, ozone alerts and food deserts and wonky public transportation.

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 28 Nov 2017 13:07

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:I've been to and stayed in the tenderloin hostels several times. It's "scary-ness" is so overrated. The bums there don't do anything. They're just your stereotypical bum, nothing more. It's no different then bums who OD on K2 in the West End here.

I'm sorry, I just can't get scared when you have Bars, hostels, strip clubs and hip restaurants where people are walking about at night.

Hell, I can't think of a "Ghetto" area in SF that isn't actually quite nice.


I don't know about "scariness," but lol the Tenderloin isn't "actually quite nice." Unless the West End has gone off a total cliff since I lived in Dallas, it's not comparable at all.

Though I know you're just blowing smoke when you mention "ghetto" areas of SF, because they don't exist (outside of the TL, which isn't really "ghetto," just an extreme concentration of shockingly open social/mental health problems that is unlike anywhere else in the country). The closest thing would be like Hunter's Point, but a) not really, and b) you didn't go there.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Nov 2017 13:27

tanzoak wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:I've been to and stayed in the tenderloin hostels several times. It's "scary-ness" is so overrated. The bums there don't do anything. They're just your stereotypical bum, nothing more. It's no different then bums who OD on K2 in the West End here.

I'm sorry, I just can't get scared when you have Bars, hostels, strip clubs and hip restaurants where people are walking about at night.

Hell, I can't think of a "Ghetto" area in SF that isn't actually quite nice.


I don't know about "scariness," but lol the Tenderloin isn't "actually quite nice." Unless the West End has gone off a total cliff since I lived in Dallas, it's not comparable at all.

Though I know you're just blowing smoke when you mention "ghetto" areas of SF, because they don't exist (outside of the TL, which isn't really "ghetto," just an extreme concentration of shockingly open social/mental health problems that is unlike anywhere else in the country). The closest thing would be like Hunter's Point, but a) not really, and b) you didn't go there.



Funny that you mention hunters point. I actually edited that out of my original post before I submitted it. So I yeah I have been there too. It's rough but, not as bad as union square when you talk about homelessness and mental illness.

In terms of what you mentioned, drugs, public urination, drugs , assault , chronic panhandling etc..sadly all those things are now present in West End.

It definitely isn't to the extent as you see in SF, where you can a massive concentration of homelessness.. but as others have posted .. this is a chronic issue that is becoming more and more prevalent in Dallas...

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Nov 2017 13:59

tamtagon wrote:When I'm on this high horse, what's the most shocking is how easily "the homeless problem" is taken into consideration as a quality of life issue similar to those pesky persistent traffic jams, inadequate sidewalks, potholes, ozone alerts and food deserts and wonky public transportation.


It's definitely more than a QoL issue. Anyway.. I'll stop posting about this on this thread

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tanzoak
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby tanzoak » 28 Nov 2017 14:01

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Funny that you mention hunters point. I actually edited that out of my original post before I submitted it. So I yeah I have been there too.


Well damn that'll teach me lol

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 28 Nov 2017 14:46

Did the bond election include any funds for Oak Cliff streetcar expansion?

So I found this link at D Magazine and answered my own question. http://gis.dallascityhall.com/propositions/index.htm

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Nov 2017 15:04

tanzoak wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Funny that you mention hunters point. I actually edited that out of my original post before I submitted it. So I yeah I have been there too.


Well damn that'll teach me lol


Yep. Young whippersnapper. Lol

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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby CTroyMathis » 23 Jan 2018 15:53

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... omni-hotel

The City Council is scheduled to vote Wednesday to accept $8 million in state funds to complete a long-planned streetcar extension. The money is left over from the McKinney Avenue trolley extension and the Dallas streetcar's construction.


Eventually, the streetcar line would link to the new $92 million line that is likely to run on Elm and Commerce streets downtown. That project is scheduled to be completed by 2023. . .

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Cbdallas
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Jan 2018 16:19

Phase by phase getting one step closer to being able to ride streetcar from Knox through uptown and downtown to Bishop Arts. How exciting.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 23 Jan 2018 16:48

"Ridership on the Oak Cliff streetcar is about 450 riders daily, according to DART."


Until they up the runtimes interval below 15 min it will not be utilized by the general public.

DPatel304
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Re: New Oak Cliff Streetcar

Postby DPatel304 » 23 Jan 2018 17:01

Awesome. This will create a good bit of synergy between Downtown and Bishop Arts.

It's been a few months since I have ridden on the streetcar, but it never seems to get that busy. That's not too surprising/concerning at this point in time, but after all the current projects in Bishop Arts are completed and the extension is open, I would expect a decent of traffic.


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