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DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 29 Jan 2018 23:16

..I gotta say that structure looks cold. And really does nothing for the neighborhood. Sure they're promising developments but what type?... this looks like an extension of reunión arena. Parking galore.

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 30 Jan 2018 00:15

DPatel304 wrote:My thoughts exactly. This station is supposed to be a huge catalyst for development, and, while that will still be true, it's absurd that so much space is being taken up by an above ground parking garage. This should be more of an urban mall with an attached high-rise.

Look at the new Miami Central train station in downtown Miami. Office buildings above the tracks, parking below the tracks. Check out most of the office skyscrapers in uptown Dallas, offices are above the garages.

Once the guarded parking garages are built watch the redevelopment of the nearby area boom! Customers like shopping, dining, and partying in stores where they feel and their cars seem safe.

Texas Central primary purpose is building the infrastructure to support the train services. It's their real estate developers partners purpose to build the offices, shops, residential units, and restaurants in the redevelopment.

DART buses, light rail trains , and MATA streetcars run nearby the 1st Baptist Church in downtown Dallas, yet the church owns at east one huge parking garage nearby. As long as 98% of the citizens of Dallas travel by car, they will need a place to park their car to do whatever their business is in downtown Dallas.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby DPatel304 » 30 Jan 2018 08:39

electricron wrote:Texas Central primary purpose is building the infrastructure to support the train services. It's their real estate developers partners purpose to build the offices, shops, residential units, and restaurants in the redevelopment.


Okay, fair enough. So, at this point in time, all we really care about is the location of the station (which, in my opinion, is fantastic), and smaller things like where the sky-bridges will connect. The rest will come naturally over time?

I'm okay with that, as long as future development feels well integrated into the station. I get that this will spur a lot of development, but I was hoping for this whole area to gel really well together and feel very connected to each other and, most importantly, the station. I guess we will see in the near future..

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tamtagon
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 30 Jan 2018 12:16

I'm sure the garages shown in the conceptual pictures represent the anticipated amount of parking the station will need, not the actual delivery. Parking is likely to be a nice chunk of income for Texas Central, but still small compared to hotel, entertainment and dining revenue from the Matthews Southwest partnership.

The convention center is getting another attached hotel, mainly used by Houston area visitors, but certainly with CC access. The covered walkway extension to Union Station and Trinity River Overlook and Convention Center functionality will get a big boost when someone brings a National League baseball team to the Reunion Arena site (Go Team).

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 30 Jan 2018 13:03

electricron wrote:As long as 98% of the citizens of Dallas travel by car, they will need a place to park their car to do whatever their business is in downtown Dallas.


And when you leave for travel do you leave your car at the airport? My experience says it's a hassle and not to mention expensive.

Unless you're a business person who will be back same day..I doubt most people will opt to leave their personal car there.

A drop off/pick up zone is probably of more value for this mode of transport.

Remember they want to have a car rental place there. That's may reasoning for this garage.

To be fair all the bullet train stations that I've been to in Europe don't even have parking. Obviously we're not Europe, but I think most people opt for having someone pick them up or drop them off when traveling.

Whatever the justification, the design is atrocious. They promised iconic. This looks like a Dart station. Not exactly on the same page.

They need a better design that connects to the train station. If the cedars is supposed to grow as a neighborhood from this than there needs to be pedestrian mind set when designing these buildings.

Hopefully these are just rough initial renders.

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Tucy
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 30 Jan 2018 13:17

DPatel304 wrote:
electricron wrote:Texas Central primary purpose is building the infrastructure to support the train services. It's their real estate developers partners purpose to build the offices, shops, residential units, and restaurants in the redevelopment.


Okay, fair enough. So, at this point in time, all we really care about is the location of the station (which, in my opinion, is fantastic), and smaller things like where the sky-bridges will connect. The rest will come naturally over time?

I'm okay with that, as long as future development feels well integrated into the station. I get that this will spur a lot of development, but I was hoping for this whole area to gel really well together and feel very connected to each other and, most importantly, the station. I guess we will see in the near future..


It's hard to see how any future development could be well integrated into the station, with the station being isolated by railroad tracks and huge parking garages.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Cbdallas » 30 Jan 2018 14:04

I am counting the blessing that at least the train stops at edge of our downtown and will be able to connect with DART at the center of our city. Houston was not so lucky.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby DPatel304 » 30 Jan 2018 14:46

There are more renderings on this site:
Image
Image
https://www.texascentral.com/2018/01/29 ... n-station/

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Tucy
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 30 Jan 2018 16:12

Cbdallas wrote:I am counting the blessing that at least the train stops at edge of our downtown and will be able to connect with DART at the center of our city. Houston was not so lucky.


I had originally thought that as well. But as it's developing, I'm not sure Dallas's "edge of downtown" location really is that much of a plus. It appears to be very isolated from the Cedars, even more isolated from downtown. It's at least a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest DART station(s). It looks like they are planning for the vast majority of their passengers to arrive and depart the station via car.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Cord1936 » 30 Jan 2018 19:27

Cbdallas wrote:I am counting the blessing that at least the train stops at edge of our downtown and will be able to connect with DART at the center of our city. Houston was not so lucky.

^^^^^^^
Exactly!

Downtown Dallas Cedar's District is just a mere stone's throw from the Dallas CBD while Downtown Houston has been totally left out in the cold.

This is a HUGE blessing for Downtown Dallas!

Additionally, the new bullet train terminal will only be three blocks from DART's Cedar Station ... pretty sweet! That is a significant regional transit connection from the get-go with nothing having to be built or done.

DART officials on Monday confirmed that the site three blocks from its Cedars light-rail station will provide a convenient plug-in to DART's multi-modal network.

"Connectivity to local transit is essential to the success of high-speed rail anywhere in the world," DART spokesman Morgan Lyons said. "Transit customers here will have lots of new options in the coming years, and that's very exciting."

Reference: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2018/01/29/texas-central-announces-downtown-dallas-high-speed-rail-passenger-station-site


Even sweeter, from the bullet train terminal there will be covered pedestrian bridge extensions built to additional DART stations at both the Convention Center and Union Station as well as an extension of the Trinity Railway Express (TRE) commuter line from Union Station.

Texas Central Partners’ plans show a multi-level station between South Riverfront Boulevard and Austin Street in Dallas’ Cedars neighborhood. Pedestrian bridges connect the proposed station to nearby DART and other public transit stations as well as parking areas included in the proposal.

Reference: http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/heres-what-the-proposed-dallas-bullet-train-station-could-look-like/512544427

"Enclosed, elevated pedestrian bridges would connect it to new parking facilities. The bridges may be extended to provide easy access to public transit, such as DART’s nearby stations at the Convention Center and Union Station, and an extension of the Trinity Railway Express commuter line from Union Station to the bullet train terminal," the DEIS report said.

Reference: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Dallas-Terminal-Renderings-Maps-Released-in-Bullet-Train-High-Speed-Rail-Project-471650694.html


And just adding icing to the cake the Downtown Dallas bullet train terminal has to be on Amazon's radar with their HQ2 selection underway:

“This station will be a magnet for economic activity in an area ripe for development. And it will connect seamlessly with local roads and public transit,” said Texas Central CEO Carlos Aguilar in a statement.

Aguilar also says the bullet train is a draw for Amazon’s new headquarters. Dallas is one of 20 finalists for the Seattle-based tech company’s second home. A boost in public transport could help Dallas’ chances, as KERA reported after Amazon announced its search.

Reference: https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2018/01/30/264621/get-a-sneak-peek-at-the-texas-central-bullet-trains-dallas-station/
Last edited by Cord1936 on 30 Jan 2018 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby f4shionablecha0s » 30 Jan 2018 22:14

Tucy wrote:It appears to be very isolated from the Cedars, even more isolated from downtown. It's at least a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest DART station(s).

What? Are we looking at the same site plan? It looks pretty damn convenient to both Convention Center and Cedars stations to me...

The only problem is that Houston is dropping the ball on their end.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 31 Jan 2018 03:21

f4shionablecha0s wrote:What? Are we looking at the same site plan? It looks pretty damn convenient to both Convention Center and Cedars stations to me...

The only problem is that Houston is dropping the ball on their end.


Three blocks at a typical 300 feet per block, is 900 feet. Add another block or two from the train's length at the platform, it could be 1500 feet walk to a light rail station platform, more than a quarter mile.
Not an impossible walk, people often walk further at airport terminals from their respective parking garages.

As for Houston droppiing the ball, where near downtown Houston are you going to build a train station with 500-1000 feet long platforms? The rail corridor Texas Central plans to use alongside US-290 crosses I-610 into the middle of residential neighborhoods that's strongly against it. In Dallas, the HSR line will not split any neighborhoodd, the line is routed around the neighborhoods which accept it.
The environmental and political climate at the neighborhood levels vary. I would suggest neighborhoods in Dallas would be against it just as much if the HSR tracks were routed through the middle of their neighborhoods. Geography plays an important part on where to place the HSR stations.

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tamtagon
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 31 Jan 2018 08:31

I think the cost to extend the train to downtown Houston from the NW 290 @ 610 location will cost about as much as the extension from The Cedars to downtown Fort Worth, something like $1.2 billion... I would say both are inevitable.

I think both extension will be triggered by the inclusion of San Antonio and Austin in HSR service, providing the boost in ridership to justify the expense. Who knows whether or not technology used by Texas Central will be the one able to 'win' the right to connect Central Texas to North Texas and Central Texas to Houston.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby DPatel304 » 31 Jan 2018 10:01

tamtagon wrote:I think the cost to extend the train to downtown Houston from the NW 290 @ 610 location will cost about as much as the extension from The Cedars to downtown Fort Worth, something like $1.2 billion... I would say both are inevitable.

I think both extension will be triggered by the inclusion of San Antonio and Austin in HSR service, providing the boost in ridership to justify the expense. Who knows whether or not technology used by Texas Central will be the one able to 'win' the right to connect Central Texas to North Texas and Central Texas to Houston.


In the meantime, perhaps they could offer a dedicated shuttle from the Houston station to Downtown Houston. I'm not familiar with Houston all that much, so I don't know if this makes any sense. I get why they aren't getting a Downtown station though. If DFW had to run an HSR line from the north to Downtown, we'd have the same issue. Lucky for us, the southern portion of DFW isn't built out all that much.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 31 Jan 2018 10:26

^I haven't read much from the Houston media & propaganda groups (pro/con) but the Energy Corridor employment center is mentioned frequently, which is about the same distance to the station as downtown.... The Houston station is included as a destination (area) for Houston's light rail expansion.

For Texas Central, the train is the foundation of real estate development. In Houston, a struggling mall site was purchased (I think), in Dallas, the biggest land owner in The Cedars is a partner. Had Hunt Incorporated become a Texas Central partner, Union Station and the Reunion Arena site would have been the station location. There's an old underused rail hub next to an old post office hub in downtown Houston, but I have the impression ownership is muddled for that land and adjacent land. Certainly, the area between 290/610 and downtown Houston is far more developed than the approach to downtown Dallas.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 31 Jan 2018 14:31

f4shionablecha0s wrote:
Tucy wrote:It appears to be very isolated from the Cedars, even more isolated from downtown. It's at least a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest DART station(s).

What? Are we looking at the same site plan? It looks pretty damn convenient to both Convention Center and Cedars stations to me...


Not sure... are you looking at the site plan that shows the station situated behind a huge fortress parking garage and across multiple railroad tracks, only accessible by a long skywalk (about 600 feet)from the parking garage?

Are you looking at the site plan that shows the station situated across multiple railroad tracks and a multi-lane freeway from the convention center loading docks, only accessible via a half-mile walk in skywalks and on the surface? (and that only gets you to the loading docks and the convention center DART station. If you actually want to get into the convention center, you have to keep going.)

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 31 Jan 2018 14:42

Cord1936 wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:I am counting the blessing that at least the train stops at edge of our downtown and will be able to connect with DART at the center of our city. Houston was not so lucky.

^^^^^^^
Exactly!

Additionally, the new bullet train terminal will only be three blocks from DART's Cedar Station ... pretty sweet! That is a significant regional transit connection from the get-go with nothing having to be built or done.

DART officials on Monday confirmed that the site three blocks from its Cedars light-rail station will provide a convenient plug-in to DART's multi-modal network.


Three blocks from the Cedars Station?!?!? Three blocks from the Cedars Station only gets you to Belleview and Austin. That puts you at the far corner of "Parking Zone 2", with at least another quarter mile walk between you and the high-speed-rail station.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby mdg109 » 31 Jan 2018 15:28

Yeah, I think the Convention Center Station would be closer than the Cedars Station. Also, I'm wondering what these pedestrian walkways will look like.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 31 Jan 2018 18:10

mdg109 wrote:Also, I'm wondering what these pedestrian walkways will look like.


Panhandlers every 20 feet or so....

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Alex Rodriguez » 01 Feb 2018 07:16

I calculated .3 and .5 miles from the platform to Convention Center and Cedar Stations, respectively. Used Google maps. Rough estimate to be sure but thats about a 6 min and 10 min walk. Not terrible but not exactly great either. Will have to be good enough I guess.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 01 Feb 2018 08:45

When someone flies from Houston to Dallas on Southwest, how far do they walk from the terminal gate, to baggage, to ground transportation? Maybe about not half a mile, close to a quarter mile? Now thinking about that walk through the renovated Love Field with all the new restaurants and retail, and you'll get an idea what will occupy the street level of the parking garage shown in the conceptual pictures of the station; hotels will be built on top of the parking, so many of the train riders will walk from the train to the hotel room, less than half a mile. Among business passengers, much of money spent during the trip to Dallas will be done within half a mile of the station, almost all spending done will be within 3 miles.

I wonder if ExxonMobile has been approached about moving their HQ to the proposed Dallas Smart District. Since they went through periodic real estate review a couple or more years ago, a move like that may be something to consider for a couple+ more years ago, but every company with primary business dealings in North Texas and Houston will be a potential tenant near the train station. It's a really big deal.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby THRILLHO » 01 Feb 2018 21:36

Alex Rodriguez wrote:I calculated .3 and .5 miles from the platform to Convention Center and Cedar Stations, respectively. Used Google maps. Rough estimate to be sure but thats about a 6 min and 10 min walk. Not terrible but not exactly great either. Will have to be good enough I guess.


Ideally those sky bridges will have moving walkways in them to cut down on the time.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby DPatel304 » 05 Feb 2018 17:08

Northwest Mall picked as Houston station site for Texas Bullet Train
The Houston station site was chosen based on its ease of connectivity with local transportation, especially giving riders easy access to the Energy Corridor, the Galleria and downtown Houston. The Bullet Train project is expected to begin construction in 2019 and bring up to 1,500 permanent jobs. At least one third of the jobs created are promised to be in Houston.

http://abc13.com/travel/northwest-mall- ... n/3037333/

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 06 Feb 2018 12:08

They have drawings of all three stations posted under the Blog tab of their web site. https://www.texascentral.com/blog/

The general design, platform areas, and train tracks of all three stations are very similar. The main differences between them is where the parking garages are located and how the public gains access to them, based mainly upon the neighbor conditions and street layouts surrounding each station.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 08 Feb 2018 15:56

Alex Rodriguez wrote:I calculated .3 and .5 miles from the platform to Convention Center and Cedar Stations, respectively. Used Google maps. Rough estimate to be sure but thats about a 6 min and 10 min walk. Not terrible but not exactly great either. Will have to be good enough I guess.


That .3 mile from the Convention Center Station only gets you to a spot in the skywalk that is roughly lined up with the very end of the tracks and the railshed. If you look closely at the renderings, it appears that one will have to continue walking in the skywalk for some time before actually being able to get in to the station (likely about where the it intersects with the skywalk from Parking Zone 2. So the walk ends up being closer to 1/2 mile.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 10 Feb 2018 20:29

Come on guys and gals, if you're going to taking public transit to get to Houston you better be willing to walk a little bit. The only way I'm aware of that gives you front door to front door walkability for distances so large is with a private automobile or motorcycle.

There's a very good chance the TRE trains will be extended a half mile to mile to reach the new HSR train station at a new TRE dedicated platform. $10 million to add the new platform will be far easier task to accomplish than finding a $billion or two to extend the HSR train to Fort Worth.

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 10 Feb 2018 20:43

Recent speech by Tim Keith at SW Rail Conference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLuOMhFgV9o

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby willyk » 20 Feb 2018 03:31

Tucy wrote:
Alex Rodriguez wrote:I calculated .3 and .5 miles from the platform to Convention Center and Cedar Stations, respectively. Used Google maps. Rough estimate to be sure but thats about a 6 min and 10 min walk. Not terrible but not exactly great either. Will have to be good enough I guess.


That .3 mile from the Convention Center Station only gets you to a spot in the skywalk that is roughly lined up with the very end of the tracks and the railshed. If you look closely at the renderings, it appears that one will have to continue walking in the skywalk for some time before actually being able to get in to the station (likely about where the it intersects with the skywalk from Parking Zone 2. So the walk ends up being closer to 1/2 mile.


A new or additional alignment for the proposed downtown streetcar could take passengers from the HSR, though the CBD, D2, D1 and into Uptown.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 20 Feb 2018 09:25

willyk wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Alex Rodriguez wrote:I calculated .3 and .5 miles from the platform to Convention Center and Cedar Stations, respectively. Used Google maps. Rough estimate to be sure but thats about a 6 min and 10 min walk. Not terrible but not exactly great either. Will have to be good enough I guess.


That .3 mile from the Convention Center Station only gets you to a spot in the skywalk that is roughly lined up with the very end of the tracks and the railshed. If you look closely at the renderings, it appears that one will have to continue walking in the skywalk for some time before actually being able to get in to the station (likely about where the it intersects with the skywalk from Parking Zone 2. So the walk ends up being closer to 1/2 mile.


A new or additional alignment for the proposed downtown streetcar could take passengers from the HSR, though the CBD, D2, D1 and into Uptown.


Well, yes, I suppose it could. As could a new or different alignment for the proposed D2; as could a new subway line; as could all sorts of imaginary transit projects.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 20 Feb 2018 09:53

Seems unlikely the pedestrian bridges in Texas Central's plans would leave out moving sidewalks; for those few HSR passengers connecting to LRT or bus or streetcar, a ten minute walk might be welcomed after sitting for 90 minutes.

Most people are going to get in a car at one of the parking garages.

Many of those from Houston (area) destined to downtown will stay at one of the new hotels almost certain to rise next to the station.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 20 Feb 2018 11:49

tamtagon wrote:Seems unlikely the pedestrian bridges in Texas Central's plans would leave out moving sidewalks; for those few HSR passengers connecting to LRT or bus or streetcar, a ten minute walk might be welcomed after sitting for 90 minutes.

Most people are going to get in a car at one of the parking garages.

Many of those from Houston (area) destined to downtown will stay at one of the new hotels almost certain to rise next to the station.


I think you are quite right that "few" HSR passengers will be connecting to (or from) LRT or bus or streetcar and that most passengers will be going only to and from the parking garages. Just as few will be walking directly to (or from) their destination (or origin). Hence my initial comment that, as it is being developed, the near-downtown or adjacent-to-downtown site does not appear to be that much of a plus for us.

FWIW, on trains people can (and do) get up and walk around at any time, so the idea of a 10 minute walk being a plus "after sitting for 90 minutes" doesn't really apply.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 20 Feb 2018 12:20

Tucy wrote: Hence my initial comment that, as it is being developed, the near-downtown or adjacent-to-downtown site does not appear to be that much of a plus for us.


If the stations does happen, the plus for us is a growing downtown environment. The thousands of trips to Dallas made each week will support 2,000 or more hotel rooms, it'll help transplant the touristy stuff from the West End to the Convention Center? It's a big deal.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 20 Feb 2018 12:48

tamtagon wrote:
Tucy wrote: Hence my initial comment that, as it is being developed, the near-downtown or adjacent-to-downtown site does not appear to be that much of a plus for us.


If the stations does happen, the plus for us is a growing downtown environment. The thousands of trips to Dallas made each week will support 2,000 or more hotel rooms, it'll help transplant the touristy stuff from the West End to the Convention Center? It's a big deal.


I'm not so sure about that. I don't see the attraction of staying in a hotel at the train station. I cannot imagine as many as 2,000 hotel rooms, let alone more. It's not like DFW Airport where there are markets for fly-in conferences, and for people driving in from Oklahoma and across north Texas to take a flight the next day.

Why would anyone ride a train from Houston to Dallas and then stay in a hotel at the train station?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 21 Feb 2018 08:38

Tucy wrote:Why would anyone ride a train from Houston to Dallas and then stay in a hotel at the train station?

I've ridden a train from Fort Worth to Chicago, spent a night in a hotel near the train station, and rode another train to Seattle the next day. I can see the possibilities of people riding the train from Houston to Dallas and riding the train to Chicago the next day. They might even be able to do so without spending a night in Dallas if they catch a morning train, but not every HSR train will run in the morning. ;)

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 21 Feb 2018 09:05

I'm under the impression the Texas Central business plan builds the rail line to deliver customers to the high density mixed use HSR stations, similar to a convenience store/gas station prices the fuel just above the break even mark and makes all the profit inside the store. Matthews Southwest owns a lot of the land right there and likes to build big stuff and is a major investor/partner in Texas Central.

Probably, the only bundle pricing for train ticket/hotel/rental car will be among Texas Central partners.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby muncien » 21 Feb 2018 09:35

Having hotel options within walking distance of a major train station is hugely important. Both of my last trips to Chicago involved walking to the hotel from the station. That said, I stayed at Swisshotel, and the Silver Smith (1.5 and 1 miles respectively).
I always figured those were acceptable walking distances when visiting a city... However, based on comments in this thread, that's the exception to the rule and people are only capable of walking 1/4 to maybe 1/2 a mile if they're 'adventurous'. I'm sure we'll end up with a hotel or two around here, but I tend to think there are already plenty close enough to serve visitors.
Skywalks are hardly roughing it... Although I would have preferred better street interaction around the area. But that does seem a bit much to ask...
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 21 Feb 2018 10:29

Downtown Dallas area has been hotel-anemic since the 80s. A weird deal, entirely self-inflicted, laced with good intentions.

Briefly... the city stayed on top of the trends making infrastructure accommodations to mimic the overwhelming popularity of suburban office park. During this time Dallas was a #1 TV show and that made it easy to book every national convention while building a gigantic convention center. Hotels downtown were scaled to fit the peaks of national conventions, as would be expected in a top convention destination and became huge.

The TV show was canceled; criminals running some of the largest Downtown Dallas insurance and Savings & Loan entities bankrupted those industries during a national recession. The biggest hotels survived, the convention center got even bigger, but the host neighborhood disappeared. The "city" had been scrapped away, sidewalks - the natural habitat of city dwellers were replaced by traffic lanes - the natural habitat of suburban commuter. The original open air shopping center was closed down, boarded up and left for dead as the enclosed mall bloated.

The environment for Downtown Dallas hotels was overrun, inbred and lacked all the cadence and variety of a healthy big city hotel marketplace. This was allowed fester for almost a generation, with repair to the urban environment beginning after the turn of the century.

Even during the depth of hibernation, the greater downtown area was hotel deficient. Since the city's sustained and burgeoning rebound began, most had gotten used to the scale of the CBD hotel market and just went with it. The renaissance started with a stunted, gimpy hotel marketplace; thousands of rooms have been added in the last decade, but that's not enough to catch up and make up what was lost in the 90s. We just now seeing more extended stay accommodation, smaller sized hotel with variety. There's a ton of niche rooms to build.

Without any quantification processing, this quote from the HSR builders site may be directive

https://www.texascentral.com/project/

Nearly 50,000 Texans, sometimes called “super-commuters,” travel back and forth between Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth more than once a week. Many others make the trip very regularly. The approximately 240-mile high-speed rail line will offer a total travel time of less than 90 minutes, with convenient departures every 30 minutes during peak periods each day, and every hour during off-peak periods – with 6 hours reserved each night for system maintenance and inspection.


If 10% of the super-commuters use HSR and spend one night a week at a station adjacent partners hotel, that's ~5,000 room nights, more than enough sustain a hotel with 1,000 rooms.

Considering the number of other trip takers, and how the growing appeal and geographic footprint of downtown Dallas, I'm starting to think the station operation will start off with the ability to support more than 2,000 new, adjacent hotel rooms.

Look at the size and spacing of the parking structures posted above. I'd have to say that's exactly where Matthews Southwest is going to build two big hotels ---- on top of the parking pedestal will be a few stories of retail, dining, entertainment --- everything you would find inside the airport and much more -- and on top of that will be the hotels.

Additionally, the backside, service entrance of the convention center is finally in queue for a rebuild with the whole mixed use pedestrian TOD mindset AND the surface parking in the highway pit is in the same sort of queue.... this station is a big deal, it'll build out an entire subset, filling in the gaps of post war redlining highway building.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 21 Feb 2018 12:40

muncien wrote:That said, I stayed at Swisshotel, and the Silver Smith (1.5 and 1 miles respectively).


It's a small world. I stayed at the Silversmith my last time in Chicago.

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Tucy
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 21 Feb 2018 13:49

tamtagon wrote:
https://www.texascentral.com/project/

Nearly 50,000 Texans, sometimes called “super-commuters,” travel back and forth between Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth more than once a week. Many others make the trip very regularly. The approximately 240-mile high-speed rail line will offer a total travel time of less than 90 minutes, with convenient departures every 30 minutes during peak periods each day, and every hour during off-peak periods – with 6 hours reserved each night for system maintenance and inspection.


If 10% of the super-commuters use HSR and spend one night a week at a station adjacent partners hotel, that's ~5,000 room nights, more than enough sustain a hotel with 1,000 rooms.

Considering the number of other trip takers, and how the growing appeal and geographic footprint of downtown Dallas, I'm starting to think the station operation will start off with the ability to support more than 2,000 new, adjacent hotel rooms.


Fun with numbers. Presumably, roughly half of those super-commuters are DFW residents commuting to Houston. So you'll need 20% of the Houston commuters to spend a night in your 1,000 room hotel, and that's assuming that 100% of the super-commuters use the TCR instead of flying.

But why would any of the super-commuters choose to stay at the train station? Presumably, they are commuting to Dallas for a reason other than to hang out at a train station. For those who will be spending a night, the vast overwhelming majority will get in their rental cars, drive to the part of town to which they are commuting, and stay in a hotel in that same general vicinity. If they are coming to town to work or visit people in Plano, the vast majority will stay in the Plano area. Even if they are coming to work at an office in downtown Dallas, most will find a hotel a short walk from the office location. When they finish their work, they return to the train station and hop on the train.

The fact that our friend Muncien is walking 1 - 1.5 miles to get to his hotel from the train station in Chicago (one of the largest passenger rail hubs in the country) might tell us something about how much market there is for hotels at or immediately adjacent to train stations. In fact, take a look around the country and you won't find many hotels at or even adjacent to any of our larger passenger rail stations. And I don't recall seeing many in my international travels either.

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tamtagon
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 07 Mar 2018 05:30

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... ullet.html

Project detractors also argue that the ridership projections are overly optimistic and that the privately-funded rail project may not be profitable. Estimates from Texas Central Partners predict 5 million riders annually by 2025 and a 10 million riders by 2050.


I don't remember reading these data before, but it gives the opportunity for more fun with numbers!

If 10% of the TCP estimated riders from Houston stay at a presumed Cedars Station hotel, that's, on average, almost 700 nightly room rentals.

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 07 Mar 2018 08:53

Can we get this thread back on the trains instead of hotels?
Potentially 100,000 DART passengers ride through Union Station, how many of them use the Hyatt Regency Hotel? It's completely unrelated!

Especially considering amongst the reasons why Texas Central uses in its social media is a day trip between the two cities, where you can arrive in the morning and return in the evening, giving you all aftermoon to do your business.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 07 Mar 2018 09:18

I'm talking about the station, and the development which potentially comes with it. In addition to one or two hotels probably developed by Texas Central partners, the station will have loads of retail opportunity. Presumably, the ride between the cities is a break-even deal with profit coming from the station amenities.

The trains, they'll be made in Japan, right? They will go fast.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Mar 2018 09:29

electricron wrote:Can we get this thread back on the trains instead of hotels?


Sorry I have one more hotel post to add :D

electricron wrote:Potentially 100,000 DART passengers ride through Union Station, how many of them use the Hyatt Regency Hotel? It's completely unrelated!


People who use DART most likely live in DFW, though, so you can't really compare the two.

Also, I think people are too focused on one hotel coming to the HSR station. Why does it have to stop there? Maybe at first we'll get one hotel, then we might get some more retail, then we might get an office building, then maybe apartments, then maybe another hotel. Eventually this part of town becomes a destination in itself, and people aren't primarily staying just to be next to the HSR, they are staying for all the amenities nearby as well. The HSR is close enough to Downtown to eventually see a lot of development occur nearby. This isn't like putting a hotel at the airport, which would be far away from anything but the airport. This would be putting a hotel near Downtown that just happens to be next to the HSR.

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maconahey
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby maconahey » 04 May 2018 11:41

Amtrak jumps on board Texas' bullet train with ticketing and shuttle partnership

Amtrak and Texas Central Partners announced a partnership Friday to link the bullet train from Dallas to Houston to the national passenger rail network.

Passengers will be able to book their bullet train trips through Amtrak. The partnership also commits the high-speed rail operator to transport passengers between Amtrak's Dallas endpoint, Union Station, to the Texas Central's multilevel station between South Riverfront Boulevard and Austin Street.


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas/ ... artnership

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tamtagon
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 04 May 2018 12:25

...just for fun:

There's your connection to Fort Worth! Amtrak & TRE, no problem.

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muncien
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby muncien » 04 May 2018 12:57

tamtagon wrote:...just for fun:

There's your connection to Fort Worth! Amtrak & TRE, no problem.


Almost makes you question the need for Amtrak to even stop at Union Station anymore... :?:
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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itsjrd1964
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby itsjrd1964 » 01 Sep 2018 09:25

Update from DMN, including another aspect of the proposal, supposedly there will be butterflies that will be 'traumatized'.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... utterflies

Tnexster
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 12 Sep 2018 08:58

Exclusive: Here's what a Texas Bullet Train station could look like

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... ation.html

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Redblock
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Redblock » 12 Sep 2018 11:57

Tnexster wrote:Exclusive: Here's what a Texas Bullet Train station could look like

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... ation.html


This is the winning design in a design competition for the HOUSTON HSR station. This may or may not have any influence on what is actually built, but it is interesting.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 12 Sep 2018 13:56

We were promised Iconic... Remember that.


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