Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

DART D2 Subway

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 121
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 24 Feb 2017 09:32

New technical committee presentation: http://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/exp ... 3feb17.pdf

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 121
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 24 Feb 2017 09:45

Arts District alignments are OUT
RR corridor alignments for the western side are OUT
Alignments other than Swiss for the eastern side are OUT

It's down to the Pacific, Elm, and Commerce alignments coming in through Victory and out along Swiss.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 200
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Las Colinas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 24 Feb 2017 10:50

Good info... Thx for posting.

In looking at Service Area impacts of the remaining alternatives, other than Commerce, they're all rather irrelevant. Even the Commerce option is fairly limited. It's also interesting that their projected counts don't take into account the elimination of the DE station, which I believe is required for the Swiss Alternative.

It's hard to believe you could throw this kinda cash at a subway and not expand service to anyone... lol.

User avatar
DPatel304
Posts: 193
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 24 Feb 2017 11:02

At this point, I'm in favor of the Pacific alignment with the additional station at Museum Way.

Originally, I was hoping to see new stations added to the southern part of Downtown, so that, in addition to eliminating the bottleneck, we could also service new areas with additional stations. Out of the remaining options, Commerce is the alignment that is the 'furthest south', but even that will only result in one new station (on commerce) that is far from the existing lines. Regardless of which option we go with, the resulting new stations won't be that far from existing stations so, if that's the case, we are better off trying to overlap the two lines as much as we can to make transferring from one to the other easier.

When talking about the Commerce alignment, I didn't mention the new stations at Museum Way and CBD east simply because it seems those stations can be added to any of alignment options. I'd really love to see a station at Mesuem Way in addition to getting better connectivity to Kldye Warren Park and the West End from the Perot.

muncien wrote:It's hard to believe you could throw this kinda cash at a subway and not expand service to anyone... lol.


It's certainly disappointing that this is the case. It seems their main priority is to allow for more frequency on the existing lines at the lowest cost. Expanding service in the CBD is just a side effect of their real plan, and it shows. I'm grateful that, at the very least, we are definitely getting a subway, instead of something at-grade. Hopefully, in the meantime, DART can do something about the buses to help fill in the gaps in the urban core.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 66
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 24 Feb 2017 11:38

I'll agree the major emphasis of D2 subway has been to facilitate higher frequency of trains more than increasing the area of service.
It looks like Pacific will be the shortest route and should be the cheapest from the track laying aspect, but what about from Station access? A subway under Elm could easily have subway entries on Pacific, Elm, and Main Streets sloping down to the subway line.

Let's not forget gaining access to the existing pedestrian tunnels as well. :roll:
Last edited by electricron on 24 Feb 2017 14:03, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 422
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 24 Feb 2017 12:35

Looks like eventually upgrading the TX-OU weekend special route will be the one that really expands the CBD coverage as The Cedars & South Dallas rolls out as the Next Uptown (something like that) with streetcar/bus connection.

Tnexster
Posts: 624
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 16:33
Location: Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tnexster » 20 Mar 2017 14:48

Under President Trump’s Budget, Downtown Subway D2 Could Lose Millions

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... -millions/

dfwcre8tive
Site Admin
Posts: 72
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 12:47
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dfwcre8tive » 22 Mar 2017 11:34

Latest presentation with a lot of information here: http://www.dart.org/shareroot/about/exp ... arch22.pdf

With recommendations, seven (7) alignments remain for screening evaluation:

– Pacific via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_044.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_045.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Monument

d2presentationmarch22_Page_046.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Monument 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_047.jpg


– Commerce via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_048.jpg


– Commerce via Victory-Monument 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_049.jpg


– Arts District via Victory-Monument/Good Latimer 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_050.jpg


OPERATIONS:

d2presentationmarch22_Page_097.jpg

d2presentationmarch22_Page_098.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 66
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 22 Mar 2017 13:39

Page 53 of that latest PDF link has some interesting financial numbers worth noting.
Victory Pacific Swiss $938 million
Victory Elm Swiss $1292 million
Victory Commerce Swiss $1264 million
The Pacific subway route is more than $300 million cheaper than the other two routes. Winner-winner-chicken-dinner!

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 200
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Las Colinas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 22 Mar 2017 14:17

electricron wrote:Page 53 of that latest PDF link has some interesting financial numbers worth noting.
Victory Pacific Swiss $938 million
Victory Elm Swiss $1292 million
Victory Commerce Swiss $1264 million
The Pacific subway route is more than $300 million cheaper than the other two routes. Winner-winner-chicken-dinner!


Except that Pacific adds the least newly served Employment population of all options, and barely eeks out the Arts district alternative for least Residential population served. Combining both Employment and Residents, it's at the bottom of the heap. Oops... :mrgreen:

Commerce meanwhile comes out on top.

User avatar
dukemeredith
Posts: 168
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 12:17
Location: Downtown Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dukemeredith » 22 Mar 2017 14:30

Since all the remaining options have Victory portals, maybe the South Asian Museum project will come back to life. . .

My hope (probably mistaken) was that they were waiting on D2 to see if their property would be impacted.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 120
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Mar 2017 15:48

Whomever makes DART presentations and especially their charts should take a class or maybe google 'making charts' once in my opinion.

Also the population density charts of the downtown areas are hilariously sad. Apparently freeways drive population growth in far north Collin County but in downtown Dallas with 2 plus a train you can't even get a squatter.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 296
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 22 Mar 2017 16:44

The_Overdog wrote:Whomever makes DART presentations and especially their charts should take a class or maybe google 'making charts' once in my opinion.

Also the population density charts of the downtown areas are hilariously sad. Apparently freeways drive population growth in far north Collin County but in downtown Dallas with 2 plus a train you can't even get a squatter.



It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 66
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 23 Mar 2017 02:00

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .

Are there any primary and secondary schools near downtown Dallas apartment buildings close enough that students can walk to? El Central Community College or various Universities don't count in that regard. It's a Catch 22 scenario. there aren't any schools because there weren't any families living in downtown Dallas, and there aren't many families with school age children because there aren't any schools in downtown Dallas.

Very difficult to overcome the lack of schools, grocery stores, drug stores, or Walmarts in downtown Dallas or near it.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 120
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 23 Mar 2017 09:12

It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day.


I could buy that...except they also project 2040 (page 36 I think), and they are equally sad. In fact, NCTCOG charts were so sad, city of Dallas produced their own, equally sad.

I mean, if NCTCOG can make up numbers with Collin County having 2.9 million people in the next 23 years, then can't downtown Dallas future projections best some place like Sacramento's current downtown population?

User avatar
joshua.dodd
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Oct 2016 01:11

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby joshua.dodd » 24 Mar 2017 05:06

electricron wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .


Are there any primary and secondary schools near downtown Dallas apartment buildings close enough that students can walk to? El Central Community College or various Universities don't count in that regard. It's a Catch 22 scenario. there aren't any schools because there weren't any families living in downtown Dallas, and there aren't many families with school age children because there aren't any schools in downtown Dallas.

Very difficult to overcome the lack of schools, grocery stores, drug stores, or Walmarts in downtown Dallas or near it.


Back in the 1950s, my grandfather went to high school at Crozier Tech in Downtown. The Cedars is where all the elementary and middle schools were. Not sure if they are still operating today.

User avatar
txdore
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 08:25

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby txdore » 29 Mar 2017 08:22

Well, the CBD is served by North Dallas HS on Blackburn.
CBD goes to Spence MS, also in Uptown.
CBD is 95% Milam ES on Fitzhugh, the last 5% goes to Zaragoza on Carroll.
None within walking distance.


Didn't realize Travis ES is a TAG school.

http://www.dallasisd.org/Page/29296

dfwcre8tive
Site Admin
Posts: 72
Joined: 22 Oct 2016 12:47
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dfwcre8tive » 05 May 2017 17:06

A subway in downtown Dallas? Here are three proposed routes

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2017/05/05/subway-downtown-dallas-three-proposed-routes

The existing line will split near the Victory Avenue station and a new station would be adjacent to the Perot Museum. From there the route would stay above ground, running underneath Woodall Rodgers Freeway before going underground near Field Street.
Then the route could go on one of three paths. One would be beneath Pacific Avenue along the existing line, with a new subway station connect it to the existing Akard Station. From there the line would travel up to Swiss Avenue, passing the existing East End Transfer station.

The Pacific Avenue route would allow for easy transfers because of its proximity to the Akard Station and construction would not be extremely disruptive. But of the three proposed routes, this $938 million line would offer the least new coverage for riders.

“It’s that balance we are trying to figure out between making it easy for the existing ridership that we have to transfer and move, and also we want to open up the system to more riders to give more exposure to folks,” said Steve Salin, DART’s vice president of rail planning. “If you are on the same path, you aren’t going to do that as well.”

The second option would put the line one block further south, running under Elm Street at an estimated cost of $1.29 billion. Riders transferring between lines would have to walk a few blocks from a new subway stop to Akard Station or the West End station. But this route would allow for a slightly increased coverage area and make all the stations less crowded.

“This station at Pacific could be really, really busy with all four lines transferring at one point, this kind of spreads that out a little bit,” said Chad Edwards, DART’s assistant vice president of capital planning.
The third option, at an estimated cost of $1.26 billion, would put the line further south, running underneath Commerce Street. The line would pick up more coverage, but it would make it more difficult for riders to transfer between lines.

Image

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 121
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 19 May 2017 13:11

New D2 presentation is up: http://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/exp ... 7may17.pdf

Includes more detailed assessments of pros/cons of the three alternatives, some conceptual potential stations designs, and a bonus presentation of four central streetcar link alternatives.

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 121
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 19 May 2017 13:15

LPA is due to be chosen June 7! Looks like that includes streetcar link as well.

User avatar
PonyUp13
Posts: 2
Joined: 03 Nov 2016 21:10

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby PonyUp13 » 21 May 2017 11:21

Am I naive to think any of these three options look fine? I feel like most of the ideas I disliked have been weeded out.

Do others have thoughts in which is best? Perhaps Commerce simple because it has a larger cachement?

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 422
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 21 May 2017 16:15

gotta be Commerce. I'm still a little confused why none of the routes studied in depth have simply been trashed.

User avatar
tanzoak
Posts: 121
Joined: 18 Dec 2016 19:15

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 21 May 2017 20:45

tamtagon wrote:gotta be Commerce. I'm still a little confused why none of the routes studied in depth have simply been trashed.


What do you mean? They've all been trashed except for the three finalists.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 422
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 22 May 2017 08:58

The current three options are new(ish), only coming around in the last year or so, since the big dust-up about financing D2 and The Cotton Belt. Before that, there were six to eight options... a new Convention Center stop, Farmer's Market. These plans studied for a couple years, put in hibernation for a while, brought back out and studied again then thrown in the trash. Even at one point, an extension from Union Station area to the HSR Station was more than likely, it was preferred.

I'll search for those options when I can, or maybe someone has a readily available link, pdf or whatever.


Return to “Rail + Guided Transit”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login