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DART D2 Subway

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tanzoak
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 24 Feb 2017 09:32

New technical committee presentation: http://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/exp ... 3feb17.pdf

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tanzoak
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 24 Feb 2017 09:45

Arts District alignments are OUT
RR corridor alignments for the western side are OUT
Alignments other than Swiss for the eastern side are OUT

It's down to the Pacific, Elm, and Commerce alignments coming in through Victory and out along Swiss.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 24 Feb 2017 10:50

Good info... Thx for posting.

In looking at Service Area impacts of the remaining alternatives, other than Commerce, they're all rather irrelevant. Even the Commerce option is fairly limited. It's also interesting that their projected counts don't take into account the elimination of the DE station, which I believe is required for the Swiss Alternative.

It's hard to believe you could throw this kinda cash at a subway and not expand service to anyone... lol.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 24 Feb 2017 11:02

At this point, I'm in favor of the Pacific alignment with the additional station at Museum Way.

Originally, I was hoping to see new stations added to the southern part of Downtown, so that, in addition to eliminating the bottleneck, we could also service new areas with additional stations. Out of the remaining options, Commerce is the alignment that is the 'furthest south', but even that will only result in one new station (on commerce) that is far from the existing lines. Regardless of which option we go with, the resulting new stations won't be that far from existing stations so, if that's the case, we are better off trying to overlap the two lines as much as we can to make transferring from one to the other easier.

When talking about the Commerce alignment, I didn't mention the new stations at Museum Way and CBD east simply because it seems those stations can be added to any of alignment options. I'd really love to see a station at Mesuem Way in addition to getting better connectivity to Kldye Warren Park and the West End from the Perot.

muncien wrote:It's hard to believe you could throw this kinda cash at a subway and not expand service to anyone... lol.


It's certainly disappointing that this is the case. It seems their main priority is to allow for more frequency on the existing lines at the lowest cost. Expanding service in the CBD is just a side effect of their real plan, and it shows. I'm grateful that, at the very least, we are definitely getting a subway, instead of something at-grade. Hopefully, in the meantime, DART can do something about the buses to help fill in the gaps in the urban core.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 24 Feb 2017 11:38

I'll agree the major emphasis of D2 subway has been to facilitate higher frequency of trains more than increasing the area of service.
It looks like Pacific will be the shortest route and should be the cheapest from the track laying aspect, but what about from Station access? A subway under Elm could easily have subway entries on Pacific, Elm, and Main Streets sloping down to the subway line.

Let's not forget gaining access to the existing pedestrian tunnels as well. :roll:
Last edited by electricron on 24 Feb 2017 14:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 24 Feb 2017 12:35

Looks like eventually upgrading the TX-OU weekend special route will be the one that really expands the CBD coverage as The Cedars & South Dallas rolls out as the Next Uptown (something like that) with streetcar/bus connection.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tnexster » 20 Mar 2017 14:48

Under President Trump’s Budget, Downtown Subway D2 Could Lose Millions

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... -millions/

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dfwcre8tive » 22 Mar 2017 11:34

Latest presentation with a lot of information here: http://www.dart.org/shareroot/about/exp ... arch22.pdf

With recommendations, seven (7) alignments remain for screening evaluation:

– Pacific via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_044.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_045.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Monument

d2presentationmarch22_Page_046.jpg


– Elm via Victory-Monument 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_047.jpg


– Commerce via Victory-Swiss

d2presentationmarch22_Page_048.jpg


– Commerce via Victory-Monument 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_049.jpg


– Arts District via Victory-Monument/Good Latimer 2-portal

d2presentationmarch22_Page_050.jpg


OPERATIONS:

d2presentationmarch22_Page_097.jpg

d2presentationmarch22_Page_098.jpg
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 22 Mar 2017 13:39

Page 53 of that latest PDF link has some interesting financial numbers worth noting.
Victory Pacific Swiss $938 million
Victory Elm Swiss $1292 million
Victory Commerce Swiss $1264 million
The Pacific subway route is more than $300 million cheaper than the other two routes. Winner-winner-chicken-dinner!

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 22 Mar 2017 14:17

electricron wrote:Page 53 of that latest PDF link has some interesting financial numbers worth noting.
Victory Pacific Swiss $938 million
Victory Elm Swiss $1292 million
Victory Commerce Swiss $1264 million
The Pacific subway route is more than $300 million cheaper than the other two routes. Winner-winner-chicken-dinner!


Except that Pacific adds the least newly served Employment population of all options, and barely eeks out the Arts district alternative for least Residential population served. Combining both Employment and Residents, it's at the bottom of the heap. Oops... :mrgreen:

Commerce meanwhile comes out on top.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dukemeredith » 22 Mar 2017 14:30

Since all the remaining options have Victory portals, maybe the South Asian Museum project will come back to life. . .

My hope (probably mistaken) was that they were waiting on D2 to see if their property would be impacted.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 22 Mar 2017 15:48

Whomever makes DART presentations and especially their charts should take a class or maybe google 'making charts' once in my opinion.

Also the population density charts of the downtown areas are hilariously sad. Apparently freeways drive population growth in far north Collin County but in downtown Dallas with 2 plus a train you can't even get a squatter.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 22 Mar 2017 16:44

The_Overdog wrote:Whomever makes DART presentations and especially their charts should take a class or maybe google 'making charts' once in my opinion.

Also the population density charts of the downtown areas are hilariously sad. Apparently freeways drive population growth in far north Collin County but in downtown Dallas with 2 plus a train you can't even get a squatter.



It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 23 Mar 2017 02:00

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .

Are there any primary and secondary schools near downtown Dallas apartment buildings close enough that students can walk to? El Central Community College or various Universities don't count in that regard. It's a Catch 22 scenario. there aren't any schools because there weren't any families living in downtown Dallas, and there aren't many families with school age children because there aren't any schools in downtown Dallas.

Very difficult to overcome the lack of schools, grocery stores, drug stores, or Walmarts in downtown Dallas or near it.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 23 Mar 2017 09:12

It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day.


I could buy that...except they also project 2040 (page 36 I think), and they are equally sad. In fact, NCTCOG charts were so sad, city of Dallas produced their own, equally sad.

I mean, if NCTCOG can make up numbers with Collin County having 2.9 million people in the next 23 years, then can't downtown Dallas future projections best some place like Sacramento's current downtown population?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby joshua.dodd » 24 Mar 2017 05:06

electricron wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:It's not the Freeway. It's the fact that Downtown was treated as corporate business park for decades and as a result it's stigmatized even to this day. Typically, people will move into an area when amenities , schools and services are readily available.

The thing with Downtown is that it's barely just starting to become a viable neighborhood for people who weren't pioneers in the Downtown Area. I think the population density reflects that. There needs to be more residential development in the area. More retail And even more residential.

I think we're 15+ yrs away from Downtown from being truly vibrant. 40K-80K people in the CBD would give you excellent pop. Density for street life and transit ridership .


Are there any primary and secondary schools near downtown Dallas apartment buildings close enough that students can walk to? El Central Community College or various Universities don't count in that regard. It's a Catch 22 scenario. there aren't any schools because there weren't any families living in downtown Dallas, and there aren't many families with school age children because there aren't any schools in downtown Dallas.

Very difficult to overcome the lack of schools, grocery stores, drug stores, or Walmarts in downtown Dallas or near it.


Back in the 1950s, my grandfather went to high school at Crozier Tech in Downtown. The Cedars is where all the elementary and middle schools were. Not sure if they are still operating today.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby txdore » 29 Mar 2017 08:22

Well, the CBD is served by North Dallas HS on Blackburn.
CBD goes to Spence MS, also in Uptown.
CBD is 95% Milam ES on Fitzhugh, the last 5% goes to Zaragoza on Carroll.
None within walking distance.


Didn't realize Travis ES is a TAG school.

http://www.dallasisd.org/Page/29296

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dfwcre8tive » 05 May 2017 17:06

A subway in downtown Dallas? Here are three proposed routes

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2017/05/05/subway-downtown-dallas-three-proposed-routes

The existing line will split near the Victory Avenue station and a new station would be adjacent to the Perot Museum. From there the route would stay above ground, running underneath Woodall Rodgers Freeway before going underground near Field Street.
Then the route could go on one of three paths. One would be beneath Pacific Avenue along the existing line, with a new subway station connect it to the existing Akard Station. From there the line would travel up to Swiss Avenue, passing the existing East End Transfer station.

The Pacific Avenue route would allow for easy transfers because of its proximity to the Akard Station and construction would not be extremely disruptive. But of the three proposed routes, this $938 million line would offer the least new coverage for riders.

“It’s that balance we are trying to figure out between making it easy for the existing ridership that we have to transfer and move, and also we want to open up the system to more riders to give more exposure to folks,” said Steve Salin, DART’s vice president of rail planning. “If you are on the same path, you aren’t going to do that as well.”

The second option would put the line one block further south, running under Elm Street at an estimated cost of $1.29 billion. Riders transferring between lines would have to walk a few blocks from a new subway stop to Akard Station or the West End station. But this route would allow for a slightly increased coverage area and make all the stations less crowded.

“This station at Pacific could be really, really busy with all four lines transferring at one point, this kind of spreads that out a little bit,” said Chad Edwards, DART’s assistant vice president of capital planning.
The third option, at an estimated cost of $1.26 billion, would put the line further south, running underneath Commerce Street. The line would pick up more coverage, but it would make it more difficult for riders to transfer between lines.

Image

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 19 May 2017 13:11

New D2 presentation is up: http://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/exp ... 7may17.pdf

Includes more detailed assessments of pros/cons of the three alternatives, some conceptual potential stations designs, and a bonus presentation of four central streetcar link alternatives.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 19 May 2017 13:15

LPA is due to be chosen June 7! Looks like that includes streetcar link as well.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby PonyUp13 » 21 May 2017 11:21

Am I naive to think any of these three options look fine? I feel like most of the ideas I disliked have been weeded out.

Do others have thoughts in which is best? Perhaps Commerce simple because it has a larger cachement?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 21 May 2017 16:15

gotta be Commerce. I'm still a little confused why none of the routes studied in depth have simply been trashed.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 21 May 2017 20:45

tamtagon wrote:gotta be Commerce. I'm still a little confused why none of the routes studied in depth have simply been trashed.


What do you mean? They've all been trashed except for the three finalists.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 22 May 2017 08:58

The current three options are new(ish), only coming around in the last year or so, since the big dust-up about financing D2 and The Cotton Belt. Before that, there were six to eight options... a new Convention Center stop, Farmer's Market. These plans studied for a couple years, put in hibernation for a while, brought back out and studied again then thrown in the trash. Even at one point, an extension from Union Station area to the HSR Station was more than likely, it was preferred.

I'll search for those options when I can, or maybe someone has a readily available link, pdf or whatever.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 25 May 2017 12:20

tamtagon wrote:The current three options are new(ish), only coming around in the last year or so, since the big dust-up about financing D2 and The Cotton Belt. Before that, there were six to eight options... a new Convention Center stop, Farmer's Market. These plans studied for a couple years, put in hibernation for a while, brought back out and studied again then thrown in the trash. Even at one point, an extension from Union Station area to the HSR Station was more than likely, it was preferred.

I'll search for those options when I can, or maybe someone has a readily available link, pdf or whatever.

The Convention center/HSR connections were scrapped because certain people with more influence than brains couldn't fathom a line *terminating* downtown.

I'll admit that the station concepts look nice, and that DART is recognizing the value of building "up" over tracks and stations. Selling air rights over the portals is a great idea, but not being able to incorporate a station into those developments, particularly on the Deep Ellum end, is unfortunate.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 27 May 2017 23:11

tamtagon wrote:gotta be Commerce. I'm still a little confused why none of the routes studied in depth have simply been trashed.

They were trashed when the City Council and DART Board Members decided upon building a subway only between Woodall Rodgers and I-345 (North Central), The subway only requirement within the core of downtown Dallas meant the longer routes via Young became too expensive. Young was only viable with surface running light rail trains.
Young has always only been viable with the trains running at grade. Never once had DART suggested building Young as a subway line.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 28 May 2017 09:31

^thanks

Is there a solid reason why D2 wasn't proposed to spout from Union Station? why has it always started at Victory Park?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 28 May 2017 10:59

tamtagon wrote:^thanks

Is there a solid reason why D2 wasn't proposed to spout from Union Station? why has it always started at Victory Park?


It's really difficult to tunnel there (expensive, risky), you'd need super curves (expensive, slows trains, wear and tear), all the historical people were freaking out about potential impacts to museums and such, it's not as good operationally for DART, and it's less good at meeting FTA Core Capacity requirements.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 21 Jun 2017 21:45

DART Technical and Stakeholder Committees give a thumbs down to Pacific alignment, though still technically under consideration by the DART board.

http://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/exp ... un2017.pdf

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 18 Aug 2017 13:30

DART Planning Committee recommends Commerce alignment as LPA.

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/new ... 081817.pdf

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby xen0blue » 20 Aug 2017 04:41

this alignment offers no additional coverage. Hopefully it will at least be a subway from Victory Park to Deep Ellum. It was probably the worst of the original subway proposals.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 20 Aug 2017 18:42

xen0blue wrote:this alignment offers no additional coverage. Hopefully it will at least be a subway from Victory Park to Deep Ellum. It was probably the worst of the original subway proposals.


?

It provides the most additional coverage, and the whole point of the exercise was to design a subway between Victory and Deep Ellum

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 20 Aug 2017 19:37

Sometimes when I look at the various route proposals, I'm like, who cares just hurry up!

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby xen0blue » 21 Aug 2017 02:26

tanzoak wrote:
xen0blue wrote:this alignment offers no additional coverage. Hopefully it will at least be a subway from Victory Park to Deep Ellum. It was probably the worst of the original subway proposals.


?

It provides the most additional coverage, and the whole point of the exercise was to design a subway between Victory and Deep Ellum


No, that'd have been the Young proposal, which should have been the one we ended up and because a subway at city hall would've been outstanding.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 21 Aug 2017 09:49

Where will the subway come back up to grade level at? I hope it's completely underground.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 21 Aug 2017 10:10

I would have preferred Young as well, but that option was cut a long time ago. Getting Commerce instead of any of the other finalists was the best I could have hoped for anymore.

I'm probably the only one to say this, but I actually would have preferred the original D2 over any of these. **dodges flying furniture**

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 22 Aug 2017 23:31

What difference does it make? The bottom line is that the scum-sucking politicians are going to piss away a billion taxpayer dollars on a failed rail system that loses riders every year just so they can tell the 2% of the population that cares "We got you a subway!"

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 23 Aug 2017 10:55

Hannibal Lecter wrote:What difference does it make? The bottom line is that the scum-sucking politicians are going to piss away a billion taxpayer dollars on a failed rail system that loses riders every year just so they can tell the 2% of the population that cares "We got you a subway!"


I'm not sure what else you propose they do then. Just abandon rail all together?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 24 Aug 2017 08:46

^ Yup. Sell the cars to the proverbial greater fool, sell the rails for scrap and use the ROW for BRT.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 24 Aug 2017 09:51

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ Yup. Sell the cars to the proverbial greater fool, sell the rails for scrap and use the ROW for BRT.


I would like to see a BRT grid network in Dallas. But DART would have to take lanes away from the current roads. Unfortunately, DART doesn't do that. They can't even get normal buses right; I'm sure they would find a way to not do BRT correctly as well. BRT stops need to be in front of where you want to go. Not gonna happen in a city where people don't understand public transportation and view it with disdain.

I'm afraid "Dey terk'errr rowwwds" would be the ominous cry of many.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 13 Sep 2017 12:47

City Council endorsed the Commerce St D2 alignment today, so we can officially say goodbye to the Deep Ellum Station and at least two buildings (one which is undergoing an extensive renovation as a restaurant/bar) for installation of the track and switches?

Screen Shot 2017-09-13 at 12.37.38 PM.png
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 13 Sep 2017 14:15

I believe those are buildings with murals. I wish that entire little area was redeveloped. Would be sad to see the lizard lounge die though.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 13 Sep 2017 16:21

Do they really need to tear those buildings down? Maybe the can do something creative, like run the tracks through the buildings but keeping any facade that they can, and maybe still utilizing part of the buildings for lease space.

Also, Baylor Station serves the main part of Deep Ellum better, and should be renamed "Deep Ellum/Baylor Medical Station."

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 14 Sep 2017 10:57

The streetcar is projected to be completed by 2023 and the subway is expected to be finished the following year.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... -streetcar

The Dallas News's take on the subway/streetcar information. Most of it seems like stuff we already know, but they do provide an expected completion date which is new to me:
2023 for the streetcar
2024 for the subway

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 14 Sep 2017 11:54

That stinks for the new big Epic development to loose that station.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 14 Sep 2017 12:00

Cbdallas wrote:That stinks for the new big Epic development to loose that station.


Yeah, definitely. I feel like they should have half expected it, though, because, by the time they started, it was well known this could be a possibility.

Perhaps eventually the Marquis apartments will be razed and replaced with something far more urban and walkable. If that happens, then walking from the Epic to the Baylor station wouldn't be all that bad.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 14 Sep 2017 14:15

I'm very confused by both entrances to this subway. Both of them just seem like bad ideas to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for building this subway but the entrances just seem poorly thought out.

Victory Park: are we just going to have trains running along Museum Way? That seems like an incredibly small street to be placing double tracks on, not to mention it just seems odd to be having a train running right through the middle of Victory Park.

Deep Ellum: Is the entrance to the underground going to be along Miranda Street? To me that seems like an okay move if it is, but based on what I've read here...it sounds like they are not doing that?

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 14 Sep 2017 14:43

dzh wrote:I'm very confused by both entrances to this subway. Both of them just seem like bad ideas to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for building this subway but the entrances just seem poorly thought out.

Victory Park: are we just going to have trains running along Museum Way? That seems like an incredibly small street to be placing double tracks on, not to mention it just seems odd to be having a train running right through the middle of Victory Park.

Deep Ellum: Is the entrance to the underground going to be along Miranda Street? To me that seems like an okay move if it is, but based on what I've read here...it sounds like they are not doing that?


West Portal will run just east of Griffin from Woodall to Corbin St through what is now a surface parking lot.

East Portal will run from I-345 to Hawkins St between Swiss Ave and Florence St.

I imagine they'll make the extended Museum Way a transit-only street like Pacific. With that existing median, they could probably just eliminate the parking and retain a car lane in each direction, but I don't really see the point to that.


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