Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

DART D2 Subway

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 295
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 21 May 2018 15:20

Your arguments have gone completely off the rails- everyone in Addison is rich, so they'd just drive their cars everywhere, but the poor also live in Addison, so they don't need transit to get to their jobs, and if we *really* wanted to improve mobility for the poor, we'd build a line through the least dense and most expensive real estate in Dallas county. What?!?


Do you not know where Addison is? The poor who commute to Addison live at Valley View & 635, which is south of Addison, not E/W. And then more poor people live south of downtown, not E/W of Addison. So a N/S line up Preston (not among the least dense parts of DFW at all) would allow them a direct route to Addison, which you feel it is important for them to get to. Without a direct line, they would have to take Red or Orange to up to the Cotton Belt and go E/W, which would take forever. Along the Cotton Belt line, the middle income people have cars and can easily take any of many streets to get to Addison (or anywhere else along the line) which is why far future ridership projections are so low.

And no, you are wrong about "new urbanists" or whatever. DART should support dense areas or they should build where future density is planned/forced through zoning. If that's downtown, then great D2 is great. If it's Addison great. Current projections and projects say that it is downtown and not Addison though.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 372
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 09:14

Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

OR, All trains could turn around at the end-points of the transit mall and they could run shuttle trains on the transit mall; with trains running each direction roughly every 4 minutes. Make the shuttles free and it could be a nice addition for downtown

This is in addition to the "congestion" relief they have already said they can achieve by extending all stations to allow 3-car trains. (FWIW, I'm pretty skeptical they are experiencing any serious congestion and overcrowding issues; I've seen some references to "standing-room-only" on trains. That is not an indication they are overcrowded. Transit vehicles are designed for riding while standing; their listed capacity includes many people standing, usually more than half.) The passenger counts at CBD DART stations indicate that if they are running any overcrowded trains, they have to be VERY VERY few per day.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 175
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 22 May 2018 10:10

Tucy wrote:Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them. There's room for pocket tracks at Union and Victory Stations. And I don't believe there is room for a pocket track at Baylor. The only stations I'm aware of that have pocket tracks not at line terminus stations are Victory, Park Lane, Bachmann, and Lawnview. Three of them are on the Green Line.., one on the Red Line, and none on the Blue Line.
Let's face just a little bit of reality here, DART built these lines to be through running lines, and will have to spend some more hard to find cash to rebuild them so trains can turn around at the first station they encounter downtown.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 372
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 10:14

electricron wrote:
Tucy wrote:Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them. There's room for pocket tracks at Union and Victory Stations. And I don't believe there is room for a pocket track at Baylor. The only stations I'm aware of that have pocket tracks not at line terminus stations are Victory, Park Lane, Bachmann, and Lawnview. Three of them are on the Green Line.., one on the Red Line, and none on the Blue Line.
Let's face just a little bit of reality here, DART built these lines to be through running lines, and will have to spend some more hard to find cash to rebuild them so trains can turn around at the first station they encounter downtown.


I didn't suggest it could be done without cost. Add turnaround capacity at Pearl Street and West End Stations (or maybe at Union Station and Victory on the West end of downtown). It would have to be a small fraction of the cost of the D2 subway.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 585
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Las Colinas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 22 May 2018 10:26

Not sure how I missed these renderings of D2 stations from a year ago... I'm sure most of you have already seen them, but just in case you haven't, here they are.
http://dallascityhall.com/departments/pnv/Documents/D2%20Progress%205.2017_UDPRP%20Submittal.pdf
It is interesting how both portals (North & Swiss) show as being incorporated into buildings. They also show how the Swiss portal would interact with a sunken I345.
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 372
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 13:09

muncien wrote:Not sure how I missed these renderings of D2 stations from a year ago... I'm sure most of you have already seen them, but just in case you haven't, here they are.
http://dallascityhall.com/departments/pnv/Documents/D2%20Progress%205.2017_UDPRP%20Submittal.pdf
It is interesting how both portals (North & Swiss) show as being incorporated into buildings. They also show how the Swiss portal would interact with a sunken I345.


But what is the LED lighting scheme?

lakewoodhobo
Posts: 488
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 13:49
Location: Elmwood, Oak Cliff

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 23 May 2018 16:07

Why does this rendering show the DART tracks on southbound lane of Good-Latimer when the tracks are currently on the center of the road? I assume it's a mistake because I can't imagine they plan on moving the tracks.

Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 4.44.17 PM.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 23 May 2018 18:33

lakewoodhobo wrote:Why does this rendering show the DART tracks on southbound lane of Good-Latimer when the tracks are currently on the center of the road? I assume it's a mistake because I can't imagine they plan on moving the tracks.


Looking at the technical drawings posted on the D2 page on DART's website, the Elm and Commerce (but for some reason not Pacific) options show the tracks on Good-Latimer being realigned to the edge of the road.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 197
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 23 May 2018 18:43

Good catch, Lakewoodhobo. It also looks like there would be a significant realignment at Bryan Street.

Since they're getting rid of the station there perhaps they don't have to be in the middle of the street, and it simplifies things to be on one side, especially the switches -- they no longer have to be in the roadway.

User avatar
I45Tex
Posts: 102
Joined: 26 Jan 2017 05:52

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby I45Tex » 23 May 2018 23:43

This is a good thread. What do you think about the following?
While AT&T rival Sprint's headquarters is a massive EDS or JCPenney-style suburban Kansas City campus, big competitors like Verizon (on Bryant Park Midtown Manhattan) and Comcast (attached directly to Suburban Station) have spurred our local telco giant to focus on enhancing its Discovery District even further. But if you want it to be lively and urbane, then ultimately a large number of people have to be able to pop up there conveniently without spiraling through a parking garage first. This transit need is leading me to wonder if the Commerce D2 alignment is set to get significant support as a consequence.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 585
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Las Colinas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 24 May 2018 08:54

I45Tex wrote:This is a good thread. What do you think about the following?
While AT&T rival Sprint's headquarters is a massive EDS or JCPenney-style suburban Kansas City campus, big competitors like Verizon (on Bryant Park Midtown Manhattan) and Comcast (attached directly to Suburban Station) have spurred our local telco giant to focus on enhancing its Discovery District even further. But if you want it to be lively and urbane, then ultimately a large number of people have to be able to pop up there conveniently without spiraling through a parking garage first. This transit need is leading me to wonder if the Commerce D2 alignment is set to get significant support as a consequence.


I sure hope so... Of the remaining alternatives, Commerce is certainly superior. I actually thought there was already a mention of it being the front runner. Maybe I wished that...
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 295
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 24 May 2018 09:34

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them.


I don't see why they would need to do all this on their out of downtown spur lines. They are already planning a single line Cotton Belt to have trains running in both directions - so it would definitely take some planning but I don't see why the trains have to actually turn around and run on their 'correct' side track.
There are already Orange Line trains that only run up the Red Line to LBJ Central station and stop, and come back through downtown as 'Out of Service'. Operationally, it probably wouldn't take that much money to keep them in-service (if they were needed) and run them back to downtown with passengers.

I would guess the reason they don't do this is mostly because their numbers are showing a real tilt to 'downtown adjacent traffic' and not to the ends of the lines, except during special events. Which is why D2 is needed in the first place.

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 26
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 24 May 2018 13:40

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Good catch, Lakewoodhobo. It also looks like there would be a significant realignment at Bryan Street.

Since they're getting rid of the station there perhaps they don't have to be in the middle of the street, and it simplifies things to be on one side, especially the switches -- they no longer have to be in the roadway.


It makes complete sense to cut out the additional traffic conflicts (since trains would be heading north and south from the portal), however I've got to wonder how much realigning the tracks along Good-Latimer is contributing to the project cost, and why the original Green line design had the Deep Ellum station in the median in the first place.

Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 175
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 24 May 2018 13:50

TNWE wrote:It makes complete sense to cut out the additional traffic conflicts (since trains would be heading north and south from the portal), however I've got to wonder how much realigning the tracks along Good-Latimer is contributing to the project cost, and why the original Green line design had the Deep Ellum station in the median in the first place.

Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?

The original D2 plan was thrown out with the bath water when the routing was changed when it waqs turned into mostly a subway. So what was will not work with what will be.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 197
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 24 May 2018 14:51

TNWE wrote:Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?


That was one of the proposals. Totally insane. The director of the Deep Ellum Foundation, Jessica Burnham, says she contacted the engineers at DART and asked them if they had actually visited the site in person. They said no, so she arranged a site visit. To their credit, once they saw it they admitted it was totally unworkable.

User avatar
trueicon
Posts: 34
Joined: 01 Jun 2017 20:12

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby trueicon » 02 Jul 2018 13:33

Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 175
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 02 Jul 2018 21:21

trueicon wrote:Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/

Sounds like a disaster because there are no Federal funds yet. Well, the EIS is still underway, and the FTA and FRA do not commit Federal funds until that process is over. That's why the EIS comes first, always.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 372
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 12 Jul 2018 10:22

trueicon wrote:Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/


Wow. I don't think I've ever seen such a well-buried lede.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login