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DART D2 Subway

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The_Overdog
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 21 May 2018 15:20

Your arguments have gone completely off the rails- everyone in Addison is rich, so they'd just drive their cars everywhere, but the poor also live in Addison, so they don't need transit to get to their jobs, and if we *really* wanted to improve mobility for the poor, we'd build a line through the least dense and most expensive real estate in Dallas county. What?!?


Do you not know where Addison is? The poor who commute to Addison live at Valley View & 635, which is south of Addison, not E/W. And then more poor people live south of downtown, not E/W of Addison. So a N/S line up Preston (not among the least dense parts of DFW at all) would allow them a direct route to Addison, which you feel it is important for them to get to. Without a direct line, they would have to take Red or Orange to up to the Cotton Belt and go E/W, which would take forever. Along the Cotton Belt line, the middle income people have cars and can easily take any of many streets to get to Addison (or anywhere else along the line) which is why far future ridership projections are so low.

And no, you are wrong about "new urbanists" or whatever. DART should support dense areas or they should build where future density is planned/forced through zoning. If that's downtown, then great D2 is great. If it's Addison great. Current projections and projects say that it is downtown and not Addison though.

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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 09:14

Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

OR, All trains could turn around at the end-points of the transit mall and they could run shuttle trains on the transit mall; with trains running each direction roughly every 4 minutes. Make the shuttles free and it could be a nice addition for downtown

This is in addition to the "congestion" relief they have already said they can achieve by extending all stations to allow 3-car trains. (FWIW, I'm pretty skeptical they are experiencing any serious congestion and overcrowding issues; I've seen some references to "standing-room-only" on trains. That is not an indication they are overcrowded. Transit vehicles are designed for riding while standing; their listed capacity includes many people standing, usually more than half.) The passenger counts at CBD DART stations indicate that if they are running any overcrowded trains, they have to be VERY VERY few per day.

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 22 May 2018 10:10

Tucy wrote:Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them. There's room for pocket tracks at Union and Victory Stations. And I don't believe there is room for a pocket track at Baylor. The only stations I'm aware of that have pocket tracks not at line terminus stations are Victory, Park Lane, Bachmann, and Lawnview. Three of them are on the Green Line.., one on the Red Line, and none on the Blue Line.
Let's face just a little bit of reality here, DART built these lines to be through running lines, and will have to spend some more hard to find cash to rebuild them so trains can turn around at the first station they encounter downtown.

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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 10:14

electricron wrote:
Tucy wrote:Building on some earlier comments, couldn't DART address their "congestion" issues quite easily and for probably at least $1.3 Billion less money by sending only some of each lines trains through the transit mall and turning others back to provide more service on each end of each line? As suggested above, it seems likely that there is not all that much through-ridership anyway. Many major transit agencies I've seen have some trains that run the whole line and some that don't.

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them. There's room for pocket tracks at Union and Victory Stations. And I don't believe there is room for a pocket track at Baylor. The only stations I'm aware of that have pocket tracks not at line terminus stations are Victory, Park Lane, Bachmann, and Lawnview. Three of them are on the Green Line.., one on the Red Line, and none on the Blue Line.
Let's face just a little bit of reality here, DART built these lines to be through running lines, and will have to spend some more hard to find cash to rebuild them so trains can turn around at the first station they encounter downtown.


I didn't suggest it could be done without cost. Add turnaround capacity at Pearl Street and West End Stations (or maybe at Union Station and Victory on the West end of downtown). It would have to be a small fraction of the cost of the D2 subway.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 22 May 2018 10:26

Not sure how I missed these renderings of D2 stations from a year ago... I'm sure most of you have already seen them, but just in case you haven't, here they are.
http://dallascityhall.com/departments/pnv/Documents/D2%20Progress%205.2017_UDPRP%20Submittal.pdf
It is interesting how both portals (North & Swiss) show as being incorporated into buildings. They also show how the Swiss portal would interact with a sunken I345.
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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 22 May 2018 13:09

muncien wrote:Not sure how I missed these renderings of D2 stations from a year ago... I'm sure most of you have already seen them, but just in case you haven't, here they are.
http://dallascityhall.com/departments/pnv/Documents/D2%20Progress%205.2017_UDPRP%20Submittal.pdf
It is interesting how both portals (North & Swiss) show as being incorporated into buildings. They also show how the Swiss portal would interact with a sunken I345.


But what is the LED lighting scheme?

lakewoodhobo
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 23 May 2018 16:07

Why does this rendering show the DART tracks on southbound lane of Good-Latimer when the tracks are currently on the center of the road? I assume it's a mistake because I can't imagine they plan on moving the tracks.

Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 4.44.17 PM.jpg
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northsouth
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 23 May 2018 18:33

lakewoodhobo wrote:Why does this rendering show the DART tracks on southbound lane of Good-Latimer when the tracks are currently on the center of the road? I assume it's a mistake because I can't imagine they plan on moving the tracks.


Looking at the technical drawings posted on the D2 page on DART's website, the Elm and Commerce (but for some reason not Pacific) options show the tracks on Good-Latimer being realigned to the edge of the road.
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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 23 May 2018 18:43

Good catch, Lakewoodhobo. It also looks like there would be a significant realignment at Bryan Street.

Since they're getting rid of the station there perhaps they don't have to be in the middle of the street, and it simplifies things to be on one side, especially the switches -- they no longer have to be in the roadway.

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I45Tex
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby I45Tex » 23 May 2018 23:43

This is a good thread. What do you think about the following?
While AT&T rival Sprint's headquarters is a massive EDS or JCPenney-style suburban Kansas City campus, big competitors like Verizon (on Bryant Park Midtown Manhattan) and Comcast (attached directly to Suburban Station) have spurred our local telco giant to focus on enhancing its Discovery District even further. But if you want it to be lively and urbane, then ultimately a large number of people have to be able to pop up there conveniently without spiraling through a parking garage first. This transit need is leading me to wonder if the Commerce D2 alignment is set to get significant support as a consequence.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 24 May 2018 08:54

I45Tex wrote:This is a good thread. What do you think about the following?
While AT&T rival Sprint's headquarters is a massive EDS or JCPenney-style suburban Kansas City campus, big competitors like Verizon (on Bryant Park Midtown Manhattan) and Comcast (attached directly to Suburban Station) have spurred our local telco giant to focus on enhancing its Discovery District even further. But if you want it to be lively and urbane, then ultimately a large number of people have to be able to pop up there conveniently without spiraling through a parking garage first. This transit need is leading me to wonder if the Commerce D2 alignment is set to get significant support as a consequence.


I sure hope so... Of the remaining alternatives, Commerce is certainly superior. I actually thought there was already a mention of it being the front runner. Maybe I wished that...
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The_Overdog
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby The_Overdog » 24 May 2018 09:34

Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at. Pearl Street station may have a wye intersection, but it doesn't have crossovers or a pocket track - and worse yet room for them.


I don't see why they would need to do all this on their out of downtown spur lines. They are already planning a single line Cotton Belt to have trains running in both directions - so it would definitely take some planning but I don't see why the trains have to actually turn around and run on their 'correct' side track.
There are already Orange Line trains that only run up the Red Line to LBJ Central station and stop, and come back through downtown as 'Out of Service'. Operationally, it probably wouldn't take that much money to keep them in-service (if they were needed) and run them back to downtown with passengers.

I would guess the reason they don't do this is mostly because their numbers are showing a real tilt to 'downtown adjacent traffic' and not to the ends of the lines, except during special events. Which is why D2 is needed in the first place.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 24 May 2018 13:40

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Good catch, Lakewoodhobo. It also looks like there would be a significant realignment at Bryan Street.

Since they're getting rid of the station there perhaps they don't have to be in the middle of the street, and it simplifies things to be on one side, especially the switches -- they no longer have to be in the roadway.


It makes complete sense to cut out the additional traffic conflicts (since trains would be heading north and south from the portal), however I've got to wonder how much realigning the tracks along Good-Latimer is contributing to the project cost, and why the original Green line design had the Deep Ellum station in the median in the first place.

Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 24 May 2018 13:50

TNWE wrote:It makes complete sense to cut out the additional traffic conflicts (since trains would be heading north and south from the portal), however I've got to wonder how much realigning the tracks along Good-Latimer is contributing to the project cost, and why the original Green line design had the Deep Ellum station in the median in the first place.

Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?

The original D2 plan was thrown out with the bath water when the routing was changed when it waqs turned into mostly a subway. So what was will not work with what will be.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 24 May 2018 14:51

TNWE wrote:Wasn't the original plan to have D2 reconnect with the Green line ROW in a wye near G-L and Elm?


That was one of the proposals. Totally insane. The director of the Deep Ellum Foundation, Jessica Burnham, says she contacted the engineers at DART and asked them if they had actually visited the site in person. They said no, so she arranged a site visit. To their credit, once they saw it they admitted it was totally unworkable.

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trueicon
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby trueicon » 02 Jul 2018 13:33

Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 02 Jul 2018 21:21

trueicon wrote:Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/

Sounds like a disaster because there are no Federal funds yet. Well, the EIS is still underway, and the FTA and FRA do not commit Federal funds until that process is over. That's why the EIS comes first, always.

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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 12 Jul 2018 10:22

trueicon wrote:Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/


Wow. I don't think I've ever seen such a well-buried lede.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dfwcre8tive » 20 Aug 2018 14:30

The D2 Subway: Your Official Guide to North Texas’ Newest Subway

http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/08/20/the-d2-subway/

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tanzoak
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tanzoak » 21 Aug 2018 00:30

electricron wrote:
trueicon wrote:Just got this link to an update on DART projects today

Buried in the description for the D2 subway is this:

Although DART did not receive funding from the FTA, DART is currently reviewing potential funding sources to keep development of the D2 Subway on track.


http://dartdallas.dart.org/2018/06/29/y ... eriodical/

Sounds like a disaster because there are no Federal funds yet. Well, the EIS is still underway, and the FTA and FRA do not commit Federal funds until that process is over. That's why the EIS comes first, always.


The FTA has stopped handing out CIG funds altogether, even refusing to disburse money to projects that have already received full funding agreements. They're supposed to hand out $1.4 billion this year to construction-ready projects at the end of the process but have only given out $25 million. Interestingly, congress included some pretty explicit language that they must distribute this money, so if it hasn't been given out by the end of the fiscal year (end of September), maybe we'll see some lawsuits? DART's red/blue platform extensions are among the projects trapped in this limbo right now.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 21 Aug 2018 09:42

I guess public transportation is the sort of welfare swamp the current administration meant to drain.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 21 Aug 2018 11:16

^ Only in my dreams....

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 21 Aug 2018 18:02

The_Overdog wrote:
Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at.

There are already Orange Line trains that only run up the Red Line to LBJ Central station and stop, and come back through downtown as 'Out of Service'. Operationally, it probably wouldn't take that much money to keep them in-service (if they were needed) and run them back to downtown with passengers.

I would guess the reason they don't do this is mostly because their numbers are showing a real tilt to 'downtown adjacent traffic' and not to the ends of the lines, except during special events. Which is why D2 is needed in the first place.

Check out the Red Line LBJ Station trackwork with your favorite satellite map app. You’ll find crossovers on its southern approaches, and a pocket track on its northern approaches. Not only the ability to turn trains around, but also the ability to store one or more as well. That’s what will be needed at Pearl Street, and frankly there is no room for them at all there.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 22 Aug 2018 12:22

electricron wrote:
The_Overdog wrote:
Yes, it could be done - but DART would have to add crossovers and pocket track near or at the stations they would turn around at.

There are already Orange Line trains that only run up the Red Line to LBJ Central station and stop, and come back through downtown as 'Out of Service'. Operationally, it probably wouldn't take that much money to keep them in-service (if they were needed) and run them back to downtown with passengers.

I would guess the reason they don't do this is mostly because their numbers are showing a real tilt to 'downtown adjacent traffic' and not to the ends of the lines, except during special events. Which is why D2 is needed in the first place.

Check out the Red Line LBJ Station trackwork with your favorite satellite map app. You’ll find crossovers on its southern approaches, and a pocket track on its northern approaches. Not only the ability to turn trains around, but also the ability to store one or more as well. That’s what will be needed at Pearl Street, and frankly there is no room for them at all there.


The other alternative would be eliminating that segment of Bryan Street and adding a third track and additional island platform at Pearl station. That gives space for, say, an additional 2-4 Red Line trains per hour that shuttle between Parker Road & Pearl during rush hour. A standalone pocket track isn't needed with that configuration, and AFAIK, turning a train at a pocket track is a two-person operation (unless it's a single car train).

Of course, whoever is using that segment of Bryan Street is SOL (Perkins+Will has an entrance off Pearl, but idk about that little parking lot). Considering the sheer number of people who get off the train at Pearl during the morning rush, I can't imagine those that go further downtown would be terribly upset about having to change trains for West End/Akard/St. Paul if it meant 10-12 tph along the Red Line corridor at peak times. Not Express service, but 5-6 minute frequencies that mitigate the accumulation of crowds at the far ends and help with Bus-> Train connections.

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 22 Aug 2018 19:44

You’re not going to be able to eliminate all street traffic off Bryan. To the north you have the over $100 million Plaza of the America’s complex with two 25 story and a third 26 story towers, with a historic 13 story atrium. To the south you have the “historic” Dallas High School now being used by an artitect firm. Pearl Street Station has one island platform, to add another you will have to lay track in one lane of the street and add a platform where sidewalks are now. The south sidewalk is untouchable - ask the developer who thought he could tear down the historic high school, and the north sidewalk will be too expensive to get because it will probably require tearing down one 25 story skyscraper at a cost over $50 million if only for emergency vehicle access reasons.

There’s a reason why DART wants to build the D2 Line, to not rely exclusively on the existing line that can’t be expanded for width reasons.
There’s a reason why there is an island platform there instead of two side platforms in the first place. Check out how close the south Plaza of the Americas tower is to Bryan Street.

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northsouth
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 22 Aug 2018 21:54

I recall reading in one of the D2 documents on the DART site that if the Orange line is rerouted off of the Red line and down the Green line to Lawnview, they would run extra rush hour Red line trains from Parker Road down to Cedars to use the pocket track south of the station. This would serve all the downtown stations, and wouldn't incur the junction conflicts that would result from using the pocket track north of Victory.

The D1 alignment probably should be grade separated at some point, but with D2 splitting the load the street traffic conflicts on D1 shouldn't be as bad, especially not to the point that grade separation becomes an absolute necessity.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 23 Aug 2018 09:44

electricron wrote:You’re not going to be able to eliminate all street traffic off Bryan. To the north you have the over $100 million Plaza of the America’s complex with two 25 story and a third 26 story towers, with a historic 13 story atrium. To the south you have the “historic” Dallas High School now being used by an artitect firm. Pearl Street Station has one island platform, to add another you will have to lay track in one lane of the street and add a platform where sidewalks are now. The south sidewalk is untouchable - ask the developer who thought he could tear down the historic high school, and the north sidewalk will be too expensive to get because it will probably require tearing down one 25 story skyscraper at a cost over $50 million if only for emergency vehicle access reasons.

There’s a reason why DART wants to build the D2 Line, to not rely exclusively on the existing line that can’t be expanded for width reasons.
There’s a reason why there is an island platform there instead of two side platforms in the first place. Check out how close the south Plaza of the Americas tower is to Bryan Street.


I was never talking about (hypothetically) eliminating southbound Bryan St- just the NB side. And the sidewalk in front of the old HS is hardly historic (and a completely separate issue from tearing down an entire building). Don't forget that every other DART station platform in downtown doubles as a sidewalk.

The reason Pearl station has an Island platform is because they wanted to keep street access along the same ROW. The Perkins+Will parking lot has a separate entrance off Pearl, and the pay lot is the only other thing on that segment of NB Bryan street, so how necessary is that segment anymore? All this forum talks about is the moral imperative to eliminate surface lots and sections of road that only benefit cars, so why is this particular lane of pavement so important all of a sudden?

I get that everyone thinks D2 is needed and has to be a full subway, but no one seems to understand the reality of limited resources & funds. DART and the City of Dallas should be coming up with contingency plans for addressing capacity to/through downtown that don't cost $1.2 Billion (actual contingency plans, with real numbers, not the outrageous made up numbers that DART throws around whenever someone asks about a project they don't want to do). It seems like the current attitude is to wait until 2020 and bank on a new president who will shower Transit money on every city, but that's the same presumptuous attitude that got a workable plan tossed in favor of spending more time on a new plan, just in time for the 2016 election and the dry-up of new FTA funds.

Closing NB Bryan street to add a third track/platform at Pearl and adding a second track between Union Station and Victory (to run Orange line trains through to Cedars) would let DART maintain/add capacity from the North and Northwest segments of the line, while simultaneously offloading trains from the transit mall for a whole lot less than $1.2 Billion. There's even a little left over to throw a few million at the Dallas Historic Sidewalk Preservation Committee(TM)

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 24 Aug 2018 14:00

I honestly don't know why another track would be needed between Union & Victory. It's not like we'd be running multiple lines through there, and there are switches on both sides. It blew my mind the first time I noticed that track was there.
The Pearl options sounds pretty solid as well.

Personally, I think DART has really screwed up D2. They have been trying to be all things to all people, and in the end created an expensive mess that does little to improve ridership... assuming it ever gets built.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 24 Aug 2018 14:57

Spend the $1 billion on 40 miles of intra-urban Dallas modern streetcars! Now THAT would change the face of this city for the better and actually increase transit usage. The current DART rail runs frequently enough to act as a suburban-urban commuter rail line, which is what it was designed to do anyway. Adding frequencies to the current line is NOT going to change much. It's not going to put more residents or jobs within walking distance of existing stations

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Warrior2015 » 25 Aug 2018 10:57

Matt777 wrote:Spend the $1 billion on 40 miles of intra-urban Dallas modern streetcars! Now THAT would change the face of this city for the better and actually increase transit usage. The current DART rail runs frequently enough to act as a suburban-urban commuter rail line, which is what it was designed to do anyway. Adding frequencies to the current line is NOT going to change much. It's not going to put more residents or jobs within walking distance of existing stations

That's a good idea let's start a petition!

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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 25 Aug 2018 11:57

Can anyone build 40 miles of streetcar lines for just $1 Billion?
You would have to average $25 Million per mile to do so, including the costs associated with buying the streetcar vehicles themselves and building an entirely new maintenance facility or expanding DART’s existing light rail maintenance facilities.
What have recent modern streetcar examples cost per mile costs?
Dallas Oak Cliff lines both phases cost $78 Million for a 2.45 mile line that’s more than half way single track. That averages to $31.8 Million per mile. So it is doable only if constructtion costs can be lowered, which I doubt. But here’s the rub, DART doesn’t charge anything to ride it. Should we add its’ operations costs to the tally? How much can Dallas contribute to streetcar operations every year? Can Dallas afford to subsidize 40 miles of streetcars running 16 hours every day?

Using that 31.8 Million per mile costs expereienced by Dallas in Oak Cliff as an average, we could build 31.44 miles of streetcars with $1 Billion. Not quite 40 miles, but over 75%.
Sources of data was https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Streetcar

30 miles doesn’t play as well as 40 miles, but that’s based on real numbers and not someone’s fancy. Of course, every line will have different costs, depending upon stuff under and above the streets for each line, and how many stops are built. But I would like to remind everyone that the Oak Cliff line doesn’t have a catenary wire over half its’ length, so there was significant construction savings with that alone. I’m having a difficult time seeing how any other line could be built cheaper than it in Dallas.

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Matt777
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 25 Aug 2018 19:16

electricron wrote:Can anyone build 40 miles of streetcar lines for just $1 Billion?
You would have to average $25 Million per mile to do so, including the costs associated with buying the streetcar vehicles themselves and building an entirely new maintenance facility or expanding DART’s existing light rail maintenance facilities.
What have recent modern streetcar examples cost per mile costs?
Dallas Oak Cliff lines both phases cost $78 Million for a 2.45 mile line that’s more than half way single track. That averages to $31.8 Million per mile. So it is doable only if constructtion costs can be lowered, which I doubt. But here’s the rub, DART doesn’t charge anything to ride it. Should we add its’ operations costs to the tally? How much can Dallas contribute to streetcar operations every year? Can Dallas afford to subsidize 40 miles of streetcars running 16 hours every day?

Using that 31.8 Million per mile costs expereienced by Dallas in Oak Cliff as an average, we could build 31.44 miles of streetcars with $1 Billion. Not quite 40 miles, but over 75%.
Sources of data was https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Streetcar

30 miles doesn’t play as well as 40 miles, but that’s based on real numbers and not someone’s fancy. Of course, every line will have different costs, depending upon stuff under and above the streets for each line, and how many stops are built. But I would like to remind everyone that the Oak Cliff line doesn’t have a catenary wire over half its’ length, so there was significant construction savings with that alone. I’m having a difficult time seeing how any other line could be built cheaper than it in Dallas.


I had US examples for the $25 million per mile from the other streetcar thread, but I don't feel like going to look it up. It's been done. If Dallas did the Oak Cliff line for $31.8 million per mile, it's not unrealistic to assume that with 40 miles worth, they could get some economies of scale going on to get it close to $25 million per mile.

Anyway, even so I would take 30 miles of urban streetcar over the Cotton Belt. I'd barter as low as 20.... it would make so much more of an impact. The Cotton Belt WILL be a massive boondoggle and will NEVER see large ridership numbers especially as it will pass through mostly built out suburban areas.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 25 Aug 2018 20:29

Don't forget the operating costs.

Remember what happened when the NCX subway got delayed due to subterranean gases. One of the DART board members asked one the engineers how badly the delay word hurt DART finances. The engineer explained that the delay was great for finances. It's when the line opened that they would really start losing big $$$$.

Changing subjects -- how can anyone honestly expect streetcars to be a success when the Oak Cliff line (and most similar projects nationwide) have been failures? It's irrational.

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Cbdallas
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Aug 2018 15:06

I think the real challenge in DFW today is that you really are making a personal decision to ride the train and streetcar. Maybe once in a while an event like the OU Texas game or a huge event downtown or at Victory pushes more people onto the train that want to avoid the hassle of traffic and parking. It could be that we built out our sytem for future gridlock and until we reach that density and gridlock the incorporation into our regular daily life in Dallas will be slow to see. Having said that I am impressed with how many young workers are seen on a weekday riding the train to work. Maybe they will continue those habits as they grow older. I travel and use transit in other big cities so I am used to using it but I recognize Dallas is not NYC or Berlin or Paris. So maybe we just have to take a breath and grow into our new bigger britches.

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Matt777
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 27 Aug 2018 16:08

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Don't forget the operating costs.

Remember what happened when the NCX subway got delayed due to subterranean gases. One of the DART board members asked one the engineers how badly the delay word hurt DART finances. The engineer explained that the delay was great for finances. It's when the line opened that they would really start losing big $$$$.

Changing subjects -- how can anyone honestly expect streetcars to be a success when the Oak Cliff line (and most similar projects nationwide) have been failures? It's irrational.


Because the Oak Cliff Line connects a sparsely populated area to another sparsely populated area, and does not connect to a larger streetcar network. Most mass transit in DFW is designed that way, unfortunately. The streetcar lines I envision (which potential routes are outlined at the link below) run intra-city, and make sense for shorter trips like your apartment to your office downtown to your favorite bars/dining to your grocery store. The people we have in charge of DART have designed the system like "How do we get people halfway across the metroplex on a train" and do not focus on intra-urban transit. Our current system is INTER-urban transit, much like the interurban trains that used to run from places like Plano to Dallas..... We need something that mimics the streetcar system that Dallas had pre-1950 that takes urbanites to the places that urbanites need to go.

In addition, these streetcar lines will strengthen the poorly designed system we currently are stuck with by giving people additional connections to take from existing DART rail stations.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?us ... NUajKba1Lh

Portland and Seattle were pretty auto focused before their streetcars came along and they have made those cities so much more attractive to highly educated people and the businesses that come along with that. The main difference is that they were properly designed in the manner I described above, not the way of "look at me I'm a suburb and we have a train station that none of us use but we're cool and urban because we have transit look at me I'm Plano and I'm NOT the suburb you've been led to believe I am look at me" AKA cotton belt line AKA waste of money.

Also, none of these changes will happen overnight. A streetcar system would be an investment in the future. Just like the original DART rail system was (and still is IMHO), but better designed and with a better understanding of how modern walkable cities work.

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TNWE
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 28 Aug 2018 08:56

Matt777 wrote: The people we have in charge of DART have designed the system like "How do we get people halfway across the metroplex on a train" and do not focus on intra-urban transit. Our current system is INTER-urban transit, much like the interurban trains that used to run from places like Plano to Dallas..... We need something that mimics the streetcar system that Dallas had pre-1950 that takes urbanites to the places that urbanites need to go.


DART's mandate is to provide transit for the Dallas *Area* - otherwise it would just be called DRT. If Dallas wants to build an intra-urban streetcar system, they're free to do so, outside of DART's governance and financing mechanisms. Just remember that the city of Dallas is mostly suburban, and those areas represent more seats on the city council than the built up areas that would benefit from a streetcar network. ;)

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Aug 2018 09:33

TNWE wrote:DART's mandate is to provide transit for the Dallas *Area* - otherwise it would just be called DRT. If Dallas wants to build an intra-urban streetcar system, they're free to do so, outside of DART's governance and financing mechanisms.


DART already manages the "Dallas" streetcar. And has plans to expand the network. And they provide some funding for MATA. I suppose it could be argued that anything transit related within their jurisdiction "can be" part of the funding.

Lets also remember that Dallas has a good chunk of council members on the DART board.

Things get done with poltical pressure.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 28 Aug 2018 10:03

I'm all for replacing D2 (in it's current form) with a streetcar network. They both would serve the same general area, and are interchangeable.

Personally, I feel the D2 'subway' is too much an attempt to be something we are not, and the limited benefits it offers don't warrant the price. I also don't have much faith in streetcar systems, but at least it would expand the footprint of the service area.

But, so long as DART serves the entire region, any talk of replacing the Cotton Belt with a CBD streetcar system is just non-nonsensical. The 'region' needs a commuter rail system... probably more so than it needed LRT. To fund such a system, I would advocate regional leaders to have TxDOT dedicate a required % of transportation funds into the region to a commuter rail network. Not like that'll ever happen though.
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Aug 2018 10:13

muncien wrote:Personally, I feel the D2 'subway' is too much an attempt to be something we are not, and the limited benefits it offers don't warrant the price. I also don't have much faith in streetcar systems, but at least it would expand the footprint of the service area.


While I see your point, same could be argued with the Cotton Belt line. A robust BRT system is what we need. But it has to be done right, sperated lanes, the ability to get a head start on traffic at stop lights, and more importantly frequency. Run those buses all day on a strict schedule and let them skirt traffic. People will catch on.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 28 Aug 2018 10:46

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
muncien wrote:Personally, I feel the D2 'subway' is too much an attempt to be something we are not, and the limited benefits it offers don't warrant the price. I also don't have much faith in streetcar systems, but at least it would expand the footprint of the service area.


While I see your point, same could be argued with the Cotton Belt line. A robust BRT system is what we need. But it has to be done right, sperated lanes, the ability to get a head start on traffic at stop lights, and more importantly frequency. Run those buses all day on a strict schedule and let them skirt traffic. People will catch on.


Yes. I would be totally okay with that as well, except for the fact that you already have (mostly) functional rail tracks on the ROW. I was a frequent user of LA Metro's Orange Line (BRT) when I lived there years ago, and as great/successful as it was, everybody kicked themselves for the fact that we removed miles of rail to put in a bus.
Ironically, the reasoning there was similar to the reasoning here... NIMBYism.
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electricron
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 28 Aug 2018 11:03

Streetcars haven't been built in Dallas to serve commuters as much as to serve developers - improving real estate values.
Some will suggest DART built the light rail lines in the wrong places, but not from me. Every single line parallels a heavily used freeway, at least in part, although the distances away from that freeway can get fairly large. So there is a potential of ridership growth for the light rail lines. Any future DART light rail line will probably parallel a different freeway.
Let’s list them by freeways and lines......as an exercise in fun if for anything else.
I35E north = Green Line
I35E south = Blue Line
US75 north = Red Line
I30 east = Blue Line
I30 west = Red Line
US175 south = Green Line
SH 114 north = Orange Line
Future DART light rail long range plans include US 80 east and west
Others have suggested a future light rail line parallel to the Dallas North Tollway north.

What lessons can we learn from these examples? I suggest Dallas has grown along freeways and that is where the destinations most people wish to go. The only reason why ridership is as low as it is that I believe strongly is that the neighborhoods surrounding the freeways ( and therefore the light rail lines) are not pedestrian friendly, they were built with cars in mind and not for pedestrians. Too many destinations are too far away from the lines much less the stations for pedestrians to walk, while they’re just a very short drive away from the freeway exits. That idea alone is going to make growing transit ridership difficult in Dallas.

It’s going to take decades, if not scores of time for the neighborhoods surrounding DART’s light rail stations to turn into pedestrian friendly with most destinations within walkable distances from the stations. It’s not going to happen overnight, and it’s not going to start to happen until the train stations and lines are built. You must have a horse to pull the cart or the cart will never go anywhere.
Those expecting quicker transformations of these neighborhoods are being unrealistic. DART doesn’t have the power to change zoning laws or the finances to rebuild the neighborhoods. We are going to have to wait for private enterprise reacting to the demands of consumers to rebuild these neighborhoods. DART has taken the first step, providing another mode of transit. The cities have changed the zoning laws and provided utility infrastructures needed to increase the densities. It is private enterprises turn to do what it can.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 28 Aug 2018 12:20

Looks like density pays the bills in this city. The dense, more walkable areas in this city pull in much more money than they need to be supported by city services. A streetcar system would increase walkability and density, especially in areas of East Dallas that once were quite dense and have tons of empty land that was once dense multifamily:

Image

Source: https://candysdirt.com/2018/08/28/dalla ... ting-maps/

As you can see, most of the thoroughly suburban areas are a net loss to the city. And some of you people think this behavior should continue?

Face it, most educated people in the new generations (mine) want walkable, want transit, want vibrancy, want life. They do not want a 3000 sqft ranch with huge lot in some boring suburb. You people seem to ignore the fact that we have seen a drop in corporate relocation to the DFW area, and a massive drop in large construction projects. The word is out.... hate to break it to you but these companies cannot fill the jobs that they bring here anymore. The talent is not moving here fast enough because frankly they don't want to. Educated millennials would rather be underemployed in vibrant, transit friendly, walkable cities than fully employed in cities run by people like Hannibal, TNWE, and Electricon who thing highways are the coolest think since sliced wonder bread and that there should be no public investments in quality of life.

If the companies that move here cannot fill the jobs they bring, they won't come anymore. If we do not invest in making Dallas a 21st century city, that will happen. We can't afford it and we won't survive it.

We can have good suburban living in DFW, and we can have good urban living in DFW. The suburban mindsets have to stop fighting it. They are going to chop off the hand that feeds them. I know suburbanites are riding high, their tract houses have increased in value by so much, Plano is giddy that their financial fortunes have turned with all the new Legacy West development. But that is not to be taken for granted. If the corporate relo slush train ends, all that can be reversed very quickly.
Last edited by Matt777 on 28 Aug 2018 12:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Aug 2018 12:23

electricron wrote:Streetcars haven't been built in Dallas to serve commuters as much as to serve developers - improving real estate values.
Some will suggest DART built the light rail lines in the wrong places, but not from me. Every single line parallels a heavily used freeway, at least in part, although the distances away from that freeway can get fairly large.

Too many destinations are too far away from the lines much less the stations for pedestrians to walk, while they’re just a very short drive away from the freeway exits. That idea alone is going to make growing transit ridership difficult in Dallas.


Funny that you say this. Some of the biggest names in urban planning and transit have used DART as an example of what not to do. For the very reasons what you mentioned. The fact it's a train system along highways is the problem.

In the book "Walkable City", the author dedicated a whole chapter breaking down DARTs shortcomings.

Transit planners would agree that great transit should take you to the doorstep of your destination. If not possible a short connection should be made.

And that's the problem with DART. The stations are near to freeways but not the final destination. But nobody wants to get to the freeway they want to get somewhere else.

For example if I want to get Greenville Avenue... I would have to walk a good way to get there from mockingbird
station.

Why take DART if they are both taking the same route along the freeway and the transit is not taking me walking distance to my destination or at the very least giving me a connect option?

The problem with DART is that they chose to plan the system like Highway. That's the problem they didn't consider the final mile. The destination is more important than the route. That's why great transit takes you from destination to destination, not close to the highway...

Look at the city's with great transit they take you somewhere. DART takes you on a highway ride drops you off and is like... " Figure it out MotherEffer ..bye!"

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Tucy
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 28 Aug 2018 13:30

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
electricron wrote:Streetcars haven't been built in Dallas to serve commuters as much as to serve developers - improving real estate values.
Some will suggest DART built the light rail lines in the wrong places, but not from me. Every single line parallels a heavily used freeway, at least in part, although the distances away from that freeway can get fairly large.

Too many destinations are too far away from the lines much less the stations for pedestrians to walk, while they’re just a very short drive away from the freeway exits. That idea alone is going to make growing transit ridership difficult in Dallas.


Funny that you say this. Some of the biggest names in urban planning and transit have used DART as an example of what not to do. For the very reasons what you mentioned. The fact it's a train system along highways is the problem.

In the book "Walkable City", the author dedicated a whole chapter breaking down DARTs shortcomings.

Transit planners would agree that great transit should take you to the doorstep of your destination. If not possible a short connection should be made.

And that's the problem with DART. The stations are near to freeways but not the final destination. But nobody wants to get to the freeway they want to get somewhere else.

For example if I want to get Greenville Avenue... I would have to walk a good way to get there from mockingbird
station.

Why take DART if they are both taking the same route along the freeway and the transit is not taking me walking distance to my destination or at the very least giving me a connect option?

The problem with DART is that they chose to plan the system like Highway. That's the problem they didn't consider the final mile. The destination is more important than the route. That's why great transit takes you from destination to destination, not close to the highway...

Look at the city's with great transit they take you somewhere. DART takes you on a highway ride drops you off and is like... " Figure it out MotherEffer ..bye!"


All that, plus the DART rail plan was designed to try to help the development of downtown Dallas as much as to provide effective transit. It made no sense to design a transit system for the Dallas side of the metroplex that radiates out of downtown Dallas (which is far to the south of the center of the area and houses less than 5% of the Dallas-Plano-Irving Division's jobs and less than 1/4th of 1% of the Division's population).

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 28 Aug 2018 14:35

Greenville Avenue isn’t that far away from North Central Expressway by car, but it is by foot. Dallas as it exists today is built around the car. I would suggest even a light rail station located over Greenville Avenue wouldn’t serve all of the possible destinations on it. To service it effectively, the line would have to follow Greenville Avenue for miles. Then that line would be too far away to walk to skyscrapers along North Central. What I’m trying to suggest is that it is not too far to drive. As long as the DFW metroplex is spread out mostly amongst 4 counties; Collin, Dallas, Denton, and Tarrant; having walkable destinations to a just few transit lines is going to be impossible.
The best we can hope for is building each line one at a time, build the stations, have cities change the zoning, and have private enterprise build new,better, more popular destinations within walkable distances to the stations. That’s going to take a long time, one station and neighborhood at a time.

I don’t agree that following freeways was a mistake, because there are few popular destinations today far away from them.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 28 Aug 2018 15:43

Other than a few neighborhoods very close to the city center, I can't think of any population centers in the DART service area that aren't adjacent to a freeway. Downtown Garland comes to mind, but they DO have rail. Following the freeways seems to have made sense for LRT.
Again... I think the issue is that we're expecting DART (a large area transpiration agency) to be something it is not (city core transportation service). Perhaps that role isn't optimal for everyone, but it is what it is.
The near future may be reason enough to change the nature of public transportation. I personally feel the BUS as we know it won't be around for long. Other than some high traffic corridors, the local bus will likely be replaced by rideshare and automation. A practical evolution may involve the creation of a regional transportation agency that services the NCTCOG area and includes LRT & Commuter Rail. Locally, regions such as DTD and DTFW could manage their own urban circulators (streetcar?).
Beyond that, the agencies could contract with rideshare/automation services that provided connections to the regional and local services under a reduced contractual rate, under the assumption that the rideshare isn't a true A to Z solution.
In other words... If you take rideshare/automation from North Plano directly to Arlington, you pay full market rate. But, if you use your transit services, you get rideshare/automation to the nearest Commuter Rail station (Cotton Belt or Grandscape), and that service takes you to Arlington at a much reduced rate.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dwdwone » 07 Sep 2018 15:58

I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Sep 2018 16:15

dwdwone wrote:I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.


Wouldn't this negatively impact people who ride the Green/Orange line into Downtown? Currently people can ride the Green/Orange lines and end up on one of the stations along Pacific Ave. However, if we moved the D2 line to Oak Lawn, then those people, presumably, don't have direct access to the CBD via rail any more, correct? Or perhaps they could still get to the CBD, but it would likely take longer and possibly be more difficult?

Also, I believe part of the idea behind the D2 line is redundancy. If the original Downtown line goes down, for some reason, they can switch all trains to the D2 line and keep the system going. Being redundant gets trickier with the second line so far away from the first.

Eventually, I would like to see expanded service to areas like Oak Lawn. I don't think the area is nearly as walkable or dense as it should be to support more rail though. The CBD seems better structured for that, so I don't mind a second rail line going there for now. Eventually, it will make sense to expand to other areas.

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Matt777
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Matt777 » 07 Sep 2018 16:45

dwdwone wrote:I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.


I would love to see a subway line in Uptown and Oak Lawn, but I think the cost would be astronomical because it would require more tunneling and likley deeper tunneling. D2 runs through a desolate area of Downtown with lots of surface parking. The subway portions are much easier "cut and cover" type digging. Also, I think there's more empty room for new high density development along D2 than Uptown. I'd prefer using the money for an extensive streetcar network around Downtown and surrounding areas. Bu all in all, I think D2 is not necessary but a nice-to-have. Certainly a better use of funds than the $1 billion Cotton Belt line that will see a few hundred users per day at best...... The Cotton Belt line will be the future "Bridge to Nowhere." When that happens, I hope that ALL responsible lose their jobs.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dwdwone » 08 Sep 2018 12:01

DPatel304 wrote:
dwdwone wrote:I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.


Wouldn't this negatively impact people who ride the Green/Orange line into Downtown? Currently people can ride the Green/Orange lines and end up on one of the stations along Pacific Ave. However, if we moved the D2 line to Oak Lawn, then those people, presumably, don't have direct access to the CBD via rail any more, correct? Or perhaps they could still get to the CBD, but it would likely take longer and possibly be more difficult?

Also, I believe part of the idea behind the D2 line is redundancy. If the original Downtown line goes down, for some reason, they can switch all trains to the D2 line and keep the system going. Being redundant gets trickier with the second line so far away from the first.

Eventually, I would like to see expanded service to areas like Oak Lawn. I don't think the area is nearly as walkable or dense as it should be to support more rail though. The CBD seems better structured for that, so I don't mind a second rail line going there for now. Eventually, it will make sense to expand to other areas.



I'd think you want it to negatively impact those lines so as to address the primary goal, relieving congestion on the existing downtown lines. If you are going to have a "loop" of sorts, why create it in an area where you already have service so close by? You have your redundancy with the bonus of many new customers. Not only that, you have crosstown access which means even more new customers. And if DART is looking for ridership, this would be the way to do it.


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